RMT dispute on XC

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Essan

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When the unions rule to ban overtime - do members have any discretion to ignore that ruling and work regardless?
As far as I am aware, there is no obligation for anyone to ever do as a union says? Though those who are members will usually do so.

Can you be expelled from a Union for not following its edicts?
 

221129

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As far as I am aware, there is no obligation for anyone to ever do as a union says? Though those who are members will usually do so.

Can you be expelled from a Union for not following its edicts?
Not That im aware of but it will make you extremely unpopular at the depot and across the company.
 

sheff1

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As far as I am aware, there is no obligation for anyone to ever do as a union says? Though those who are members will usually do so.

Can you be expelled from a Union for not following its edicts?
Correct in the first instance.

Someone could be expelled from a union if their behaviour warranted it. Not heeding a strike call would be very unlikely to breach the threshold but, as already mentioned, would make the person rather unpopular.
 

Starmill

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Most people don't work for the union though.

Nobody can be compelled to even join a union if they don't want to.
 

sheff1

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If you work for the union, presumably you do have to obey!
An employee of the union might have a dispute with their employer (i.e. the union) - it has been known. Most union representatives are employed, not by the union, but by another organisation (e.g. TOC).
 

181

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I have a first class Advance ticket for the 18.24 from Sheffield to Oxford on Sunday evening. Does anyone know the answers to the following questions? (and if so, is there an official source that I can print out?). If it looks as if I’m asking a lot, I would say that in most cases the answers will be of interest to other travellers, not just me.

1) Can I assume that my ticket will be valid on earlier XC services that day? – XC’s website says that it will be valid on a different date, or on different TOCs, but doesn’t actually say in so many words that it will be valid on different XC trains on the original date.

2) There is a long list of TOCs that will be accepting XC-only tickets, but nothing about which routes can be used. Will my ticket be valid only on the usual non-London routes from Sheffield to Oxford (which means no trains south of Banbury after 18.55), or will it be valid via (for example) Worcester, Bicester (or Haddenham), or London?

3) If I travel via London, will the usual Advance ticket rules apply and compel me to travel all the way to Oxford, or will I be able to stop short at (say) Reading?

4) If I need to leave earlier than scheduled to arrive by the time originally planned (or at all), will I be entitled to Delay Repay (or any other compensation)? If so, will it be calculated on how much earlier I have to leave (2 and a half hours if I stick to XC trains -- would I be expected to mitigate that by using an alternative route?), or the total length of the journey, or what?

5) Can I assume that my ticket will be still valid in first class (when available) on any alternative routes?

6) If overcrowding (or the use of trains without first class) means that I am unable to find a first class seat for all or part of the journey (on either the original route or an alternative), will I be entitled to a refund of the difference between first and standard, and if so which standard class fare will my first class fare be compared against?

7) Is there any likelihood that the dispute will be settled or suspended by Sunday allowing a normal service to run?

Thankyou for any answers you can provide.
 

yorkie

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I can answer a few Qs:

Delay repay does apply if you are delayed.

It does not apply if you travel earlier (they might offer discretionary compensation though)

If the only way to get there departing at that time is via London then the rail industry has to let you travel via London.

Stopping short in Reading would likely be frowned upon as arguably it's not really stopping short, given the intended journey. An additional Oxford to Reading ticket would validate the entire journey to Reading of course.

1st class fares are valid in 1st class.

If 1st is full I would expect compensation to be paid.
 

185143

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I can answer a few Qs:

Delay repay does apply if you are delayed.

It does not apply if you travel earlier (they might offer discretionary compensation though)

If the only way to get there departing at that time is via London then the rail industry has to let you travel via London.

Stopping short in Reading would likely be frowned upon as arguably it's not really stopping short, given the intended journey. An additional Oxford to Reading ticket would validate the entire journey to Reading of course.

1st class fares are valid in 1st class.

If 1st is full I would expect compensation to be paid.
I've had issues with ATW in the past in similar circumstances on a Northern strike day.... point blank refused me travel from Chester to Newton le Willows-even though the last train to NLW had left Lime Street about 2.5 hours earlier!
 

yorkie

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Ask them if they are familiar with the Conditions of Travel, and then ask what Condition 28.1 says. Hold your ground. They may try it on with us, but we know our rights. I do worry about passengers who are not assertive though.
 

driver_m

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Thing is, why go in a union, and then not do what it recommends? That's why you pay money in, to look after your interests. If you ignore it's recommendation, then quite frankly as well as being unpopular you're also throwing money away.
 

yorkie

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Thing is, why go in a union, and then not do what it recommends? That's why you pay money in, to look after your interests. If you ignore it's recommendation, then quite frankly as well as being unpopular you're also throwing money away.
Not necessarily. I am in a union, I didn't go on strike last time they recommended it (arguably I'd have been throwing money away if I had gone on strike). Being in a union isn't just about the ability to on strike; you may one day want representation if a problem occurs, for example. I do not get well paid in that job for the work I do, but I do it because I enjoy it and I want to be in a position where I can help others. I know that if I want to leave it I can do and get more money elsewhere.
 

Starmill

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If you did not support the dispute and voted against industrial action then I don't see how there would be any loss for you personally not to take action. I am sure this applies to a very small percentage of people in every industrial dispute. The votes show in this case that this may only to apply to a very small proportion of people. Non-union members can also take legal industrial action.
 

Starmill

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@181 If you arrive at Sheffield in time for the 1824 you can still get to Oxford without going via London too:

1855 Sheffield to Birmingham New Street 2015 XC
2118 Birmingham Moor Street to Haddenham & Thame Parkway 2241 CH
2254 Haddenham & Thame Parkway to Oxford 2329 CH

If you make this journey and these trains are all on time you will arrive 2 hours and 46 minutes late (your scheduled arrival is 2043) and will thus be able to claim compensation on that basis (100%).

Furthermore, first class is not available on Chiltern Railways services, so you could complain separately that you paid for first class and it was not provided.
 

infobleep

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Some classic Rail UK pedantry here. By which I mean 'pedantry' that is actually wrong. A significant part of the workforce is declining to work Sundays at the instruction of the union. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... And more to the point it meets the dictionary definition of "a cessation of work, or other obstructive refusal to act normally, as a means of putting pressure on employers, etc" (Chambers 10th edition - other dictionaries are available)
It doesn't matter what you think, nor myself either. What matters is what the law says and if the law says this ain't a strike then it ain't a strike.

I did think it unusual for the RMT to strike on a Sunday. I have often thought it might be good day to hold one. Less trains run but it still causes the company disruption to an extent, without annoying hundreds of commuters.
 
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It doesn't matter what you think, nor myself either. What matters is what the law says and if the law says this ain't a strike then it ain't a strike.

I did think it unusual for the RMT to strike on a Sunday. I have often thought it might be good day to hold one. Less trains run but it still causes the company disruption to an extent, without annoying hundreds of commuters.
The RMT themselves have called it a strike. It's not. By law this is a work to rule. There is a Saturday scheduled for non attendence. This would be a strike.

I would agree that XC's social media announcements have made great play of the word strike and it's emotional connotations. It's an attempt to win the travelling public's support.
 

313103

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Seeing as I'm a devout Jedi, I should have 14th December off as I will be attending my place of worship...

Last time I checked (about 30 years ago) most Christian church denominations offered Saturday night services / Mass for those whose employment required Sunday work.
Sorry Wilts Wanderer, i could not find the post i was looking for, so as a result i will use this one to reply to.

Firstly let me apologise unreservedly for saying you was always making disparaging comments, this was incorrect and against this groups rules, not an excuse but i got you mixed up with someone else. You have most certainly not done any of that and for that i am very sorry for the problem it has caused.

Secondly as a result of that i will cease from posting on this group and will delete my posts hitherto.

Once again i am very sorry for causing you discomfort and distress.
 
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From what I hear it's about money which in the current climate will find no favour with the general public and further the case for DOO.
 

jwos

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17 November 2017

RMT Press Office:

Strike action goes ahead on Arriva Cross Country on Sunday as management wreck talks.

RAIL UNION RMT confirmed this morning that strike action by train managers and senior conductors on Arriva Cross Country in a dispute over abuse of rostering and Sunday working goes ahead as planned on Sunday after management wrecked talks this week aimed at reaching a solution. The action will impact on services from Plymouth to Aberdeen and points in between on Britain’s most wide-ranging rail operation.


The schedule of strike action remains as follows due to the management actions.
Cross Country Train Manager members are instructed not to book on for any shifts that commence between:-

• 00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Sunday 19th November 2017
• 00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Sunday 26th November 2017
• 00.01 hours on Saturday 9th December 2017 and 23.59 hours on Sunday 10th December 2017
• 00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Sunday 24th December 2017
• 00.01 hours and 23.59 hours on Sunday 31st December 2017

RMT today warned passengers that the company are trying to recruit a scab army of managers, ill-equipped and without the skills and training needed to fulfil the safety-critical role of the guard, and paid a bounty of £250 with luxury hotel accommodation thrown in. Drivers are now being strong-armed by the company with the imposition of compulsory overtime.

RMT has warned that these bogus train managers are acting outside of their substantive role and poorly trained, incapable of carrying out the full role and responsibility of a fully competent and safety critical guard on what will be the start of the busiest periods in the run up to Christmas and the respective German Markets. Birmingham New Street alone will see a huge increase in passenger numbers in the coming weeks visiting Birmingham.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“It is disgraceful that the management at Arriva effectively sabotaged talks on Wednesday that were making progress towards a settlement to this dispute and were instead focussed on dishing out cash bungs to a dangerous scab army of under-cooked management recruits to try and break the action.

“Our members are standing up for the principles of a decent work life balance and against the abuse of rostering and Sunday working by a management that is out of control.

“The action goes ahead and the disruption to services will be solely down to Arriva managements intransigence.”
ENDS
 

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