RMT dispute on XC

[Drogba11CFC]

At least Bob Crow could play "Good Cop, Bad Cop". Mick Cash is only interested in Bad Cop.

Meanwhile, it looks like an early start for me on Sunday, with the 0723 WIN-BAS, the 0807 BAS-RDG and the 0912 RDG-BHI for Warley. I'll likely get the 1514 back to Reading.

 

[emil]

Roughly the same again this Sunday I gather?

(Bit of a shame a Basingstoke - Banbury ticket isn't getting acceptance via London due to no planned service south of Reading)

There is an hourly GWR service from Basingstoke to Reading on Sunday. Also lots of platform closures at Waterloo hence no easement.

 

[syorksdeano]

I notice this was posted on the Crosscountry website today https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/strike

Updated: 23.11.2017 - 09:30

Unfortunately, the RMT union has announced a number of strike dates in November and December that will significantly affect CrossCountry train services. These dates are;

Sunday 26 November, Saturday 9 December, Sunday 10 December, Sunday 24 December, Sunday 31 December.

In the event these all take place we would advise you to travel as early as possible, as some services will finish earlier than normal and some stations will have no CrossCountry services. Although alternative travel arrangements have been prepared we expect all our services, and any replacement bus services, to be very busy.

We plan to operate a reduced service, but using longer trains where possible.

In the event of any delays to your journey on Sunday we will operate our Delay Repay Scheme against the revised timetable (in line with our Passenger Charter). You can make your claim using our online form or by collecting a form from any staffed station.

Due to an unprecedented rise in correspondence received, it may take us a little longer to respond than normal so there is no need to trouble yourself by contacting us again. Please be assured that if you have received an email providing an CrossCountry case reference, your claim is being processed and a response will be issued just as soon as we can.

If you choose to not travel or abandon your journey, please refer to your point of purchase for a refund.

Our priority is to keep you informed, updated and on the move, so please check this page again for up to date information before you travel. You can find travel options here and answers to some general questions, such as refunds and alternative routes here. Please be advised that until 24 November the 'Find your train' panel will still display original timetable, so please reference the provisional timetable until that date whilst the booking systems are being updated.

For journey planning information please contact National Rail Enquiries on 08457 484 950 or click here for the website.

The CrossCountry services available on Sunday 26 November are shown in the map below or can be found here.

Please check our FAQs for information about ticket acceptance and alternative travel options.

Provisional timetable for CrossCountry services on Sunday 26 November (PDF)

Information about CrossCountry ticket acceptance on Arriva Buses [\quote]

 

[mpthomson]

From my angle, I see it as the RMT are "stiring the pot" in an attempt to wind up not only the TOC's, the passengers but also those who are being lead along by Mick Cash's one man desire to return to a 1970's Britain. I honestly think that its Mick Cash who is acting somewhat as a despot dictator and without realising it, that these strikes are causing more harm than good.

Its come to the point where I've had enough of the RMT's student type / sixth form common room behaviour and would personally celebrate if the RMT was forced to disband.

It's all got a bit tragically Dave Spart in the RMT really, Bob Crow's passing has damaged them almost irretrievably in the eyes of the travelling public.

 

[Starmill]

I do love the part where they say:

it may take us a little longer to respond than normal so there is no need to trouble yourself by contacting us again.

Could they have made that any more patronising?

I also love the claim by TransPennine express that first class tickets are not valid in first class. They really, really really are excelling themselves with that one. I would love to get them making that argument on camera.

 

[pt_mad]

That's rather naive. Members pay the RMT to get them the best possible deal and therefore put a certain amount of trust in the union. If it comes back and says it can do no more and is therefore asking the members to strike, the chances are they are going to vote accordingly.

Naive?

Members do have their own minds. They don't need to be told what to think.

Sounds like some of the remainer politicians after the EU referendum result, saying voters were conned or mislead into voting leave. Please credit people with their own minds and some intelligence in order for them to make a rational decision for themselves.

 

[Kite159]

There is an hourly GWR service from Basingstoke to Reading on Sunday. Also lots of platform closures at Waterloo hence no easement.

I was thinking more of the other way round where the XC service rolls into Reading 2 minutes after the hourly GWR service departs hence giving any passengers travelling further south a nice 58 minute wait before carrying on towards Basingstoke.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I do love the part where they say:



Could they have made that any more patronising?

I also love the claim by TransPennine express that first class tickets are not valid in first class. They really, really really are excelling themselves with that one. I would love to get them making that argument on camera.

The reality, like it or not, is that TPE services - often including First Class - are already Full & Standing on Sundays anyway. There are only 15 First Class seats on TPE and these are often heavily reserved with TPE's own Advance tickets. Holders of Off Peak and Anytime 1st Class tickets can of course use First Class should space be available.

Omitted from that page is a comment that TPE's "own" passengers (by that I assume people travelling on a permitted route or with a TPE ticket, as opposed to displaced passengers using an XC Only ticket or not on a normally permitted route) take priority for seating in both Standard and First Class.

I get the impression from the restrictions imposed by VTEC & TPE that they are acutely aware that their own services are normally Full and Standing on Sundays anyway and that they are only begrudgingly accepting XC tickets.

 

[Starmill]

The reality, like it or not, is that TPE services - often including First Class - are already Full & Standing on Sundays anyway.

I entirely agree. The answer, then, was staring them in the face. It was to reject the request for ticket acceptance. If nobody else can physically be accommodated...

Omitted from that page is a comment that TPE's "own" passengers (by that I assume people travelling on a permitted route or with a TPE ticket, as opposed to displaced passengers using an XC Only ticket or not on a normally permitted route) take priority for seating in both Standard and First Class.

How can priority boarding be given to people who have an Any Permitted or TPE only ticket? Surely that's basically impossible unless you are going to set up a queuing system at every station?

 

[Spankthemonkey]

I get the impression from the restrictions imposed by VTEC & TPE that they are acutely aware that their own services are normally Full and Standing on Sundays anyway and that they are only begrudgingly accepting XC tickets.

Presumably there is some sort of accountability system and recording of "ticket acceptance", whatever the reason for it being needed. Would there be a charge levied by TOC's that have to take on the excess?

TOC's that cancel sections of services regularly due to staff shortages knowing other TOC's could available to cover it surely would pay a penalty for this if they were regular p*ss takers? One that springs to mind is the AGA Ipswich-Peterborough service that used to be regularly turned at Ely as EMT and XC could easily take up the PBO-ELY slack.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I entirely agree. The answer, then, was staring them in the face. It was to reject the request for ticket acceptance. If nobody else can physically be accommodated...


How can priority boarding be given to people who have an Any Permitted or TPE only ticket? Surely that's basically impossible unless you are going to set up a queuing system at every station?

No idea on that one!

Also I've just spotted that XC fail to mention that TPE are only accepting XC tickets between Doncaster and Sheffield and Newcastle and Leeds, not on any other route. That effectively rules out people taking long detours such as Cardiff to Leeds via Hereford and Manchester rather than Birmingham, for example.

 

[bb21]

I entirely agree. The answer, then, was staring them in the face. It was to reject the request for ticket acceptance. If nobody else can physically be accommodated...

You are not suggesting leaving those customers stranded are you just because a particular class of accommodation may not be available?

 

[Goldfish62]

Naive?

Members do have their own minds. They don't need to be told what to think.

Sounds like some of the remainer politicians after the EU referendum result, saying voters were conned or mislead into voting leave. Please credit people with their own minds and some intelligence in order for them to make a rational decision for themselves.

I don't agree. Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well. It's not a matter of members' intelligence. They are paying an organisation to protect their interests. If that organisation advises that they should take a certain action then there will usually be a tendency to accept that, otherwise why are members paying a substantial membership fee? I say again, it's the RMT NEC and its overriding interest in revolutionary socialism, using the members as a weapon that's the problem, not the members themselves.

I really don't understand why industrial relations are so dire on the railways. Having a fair number of friends who work in the industry, pay and working conditions seem to be superior to many industries.

 

[Carlisle]

Naive?

Members do have their own minds. They don't need to be told what to think.

Sounds like some of the remainer politicians after the EU referendum result, saying voters were conned or mislead into voting leave. Please credit people with their own minds and some intelligence in order for them to make a rational decision for themselves.

Most people I spoke to freely admitted they had neither the time or expertise to analyse all the complex arguments on both sides of the Brexit debate properly, so it mostly came down to either those who thought the EU was fundamentally a good idea, or those that preferred the mostly emigration/nationalist related arguments put forward by the Brexiteers.

 

[HH]

Most people I spoke to freely admitted they had neither the time or expertise to analyse all the complex arguments on both sides of the Brexit debate properly, so it mostly came down to either those who thought the EU was fundamentally a good idea, or those that preferred the mostly emigration/nationalist related arguments put forward by the Brexiteers.

I think that was immigration, you'll find. And from what I've seen, far from being persuaded by political arguments, it's either that they, or someone they know, feels that they have lost out to immigrants on work, or that they simply have the 'traditional' fear of foreigners. I would point out that in some languages the word for stranger and enemy are one and the same; it's not unusual for people to dislike those from elsewhere. Hell, my gran used to call people from the next village foreigners!

 

[Starmill]

You are not suggesting leaving those customers stranded are you just because a particular class of accommodation may not be available?

If people are left behind, people are left behind. It's not OK regardless of why it happens, and the class of travel doesn't have anything to do with it because at the point at which people are left behind the aisles in first class will be full of people standing.

If these are the consequences of ticket acceptance, then it's questionable agreeing to it. Instead XC could have either redistributed their train capacity or provided more road transport.

 

[Dai Corner]

The scene is the boardroom of a TOC.

Managing Director: Now we come to the notice of strike action received yesterday.
Personnel Director: what the guards are asking for would cost £1m
Finance Director: we can't afford that. We're barely profitable as it is.
Managing Director: Are we having trouble recruiting or retaining guards?
Personnel Director: No, not really. Plenty of applicants when we advertise vacancies.
Managing Director: What can we cover using non striking staff?
Operations Director: The core routes should be OK. People will welcome the extra cash.
Managing Director: It will do them good to get out and meet customers too.
Personnel Director: Are we saying "let them strike"?
Managing Director: Yes.
Marketing Director: There may be some loss of reputation leading to fewer passengers.
Operations Director: But we often have more passengers than we know what to do with.
Managing Director: Are we agreed then? Let them strike.
All: Yes, agreed.
Marketing Director: I'll email a draft press release to you all this afternoon.
Managing Director: Try not to make it read like an RMT rant
[laughter]

Managing Director: Next item....

 

[dk1]

TOC's that cancel sections of services regularly due to staff shortages knowing other TOC's could available to cover it surely would pay a penalty for this if they were regular p*ss takers? One that springs to mind is the AGA Ipswich-Peterborough service that used to be regularly turned at Ely as EMT and XC could easily take up the PBO-ELY slack.

In the case of Ipswich-Peterborough it would rarely be down to staff shortages but purely service recovery due to late running or issues across the Fens that may impact upon it.

 

[al78]

I think that was immigration, you'll find. And from what I've seen, far from being persuaded by political arguments, it's either that they, or someone they know, feels that they have lost out to immigrants on work, or that they simply have the 'traditional' fear of foreigners. I would point out that in some languages the word for stranger and enemy are one and the same; it's not unusual for people to dislike those from elsewhere. Hell, my gran used to call people from the next village foreigners!

And this is an example of where democracy is flawed. If you are going to ask the opinions of the population on an issue of high national importance, that population should be voting based on objective reasoning, not irrational emotion fuelled nonsense (because that is how dumb decisions are made). If this is not possible then the decision should be left to those who are qualified to make such a decision and have a high probability of reasoning objectively. Perhaps in similar situations in future what we need is to set people a list of fundamental questions on a subject, if they score less than 60% they are not qualified to vote .

I wonder what would happen to the railways if we threw the vote out to the public every time there was a major issue?

 

[Spankthemonkey]

The scene is the boardroom of a TOC.

Managing Director: Now we come to the notice of strike action received yesterday.
Personnel Director: what the guards are asking for would cost £1m
Finance Director: we can't afford that. We're barely profitable as it is.
Managing Director: Are we having trouble recruiting or retaining guards?
Personnel Director: No, not really. Plenty of applicants when we advertise vacancies.
Managing Director: What can we cover using non striking staff?
Operations Director: The core routes should be OK. People will welcome the extra cash.
Managing Director: It will do them good to get out and meet customers too.
Personnel Director: Are we saying "let them strike"?
Managing Director: Yes.
Marketing Director: There may be some loss of reputation leading to fewer passengers.
Operations Director: But we often have more passengers than we know what to do with.
Managing Director: Are we agreed then? Let them strike.
All: Yes, agreed.
Marketing Director: I'll email a draft press release to you all this afternoon.
Managing Director: Try not to make it read like an RMT rant
[laughter]

Managing Director: Next item....

Lol, but the cost on the day will hurt XC. The £4,000 dft fine per cancelled train that their twitter feed keeps quoting will run to hundreds of thousands of pounds. Then the delay repay and refunds will also run to tens of thousands. It is hurting XC I'm sure.

 

[Dai Corner]

Lol, but the cost on the day will hurt XC. The £4,000 dft fine per cancelled train that their twitter feed keeps quoting will run to hundreds of thousands of pounds. Then the delay repay and refunds will also run to tens of thousands. It is hurting XC I'm sure.

Which they'll seek to recoup from things like wages or fares. What happens to the fines? I seem to remember some were used to pay for on-train WiFi so the TOCs benefited in the end.

 

[dk1]

Doesn't it work out cheaper for the TOCs to pre-cancel (PG?) the previous evening or earlier? This happened a lot during the GA unit crisis in the Autumn of 2015. Services where then reinstated if extra DMUs came good the following day.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Which they'll seek to recoup from things like wages or fares. What happens to the fines? I seem to remember some were used to pay for on-train WiFi so the TOCs benefited in the end.

Surely it is the passenger not the ToC who benifits from WiFi? I would imagine the fines just go into the big delay attribution merry-go-round.

 

[Dai Corner]

Surely it is the passenger not the ToC who benifits from WiFi? I would imagine the fines just go into the big delay attribution merry-go-round.

I had in mind that WiFi was being specified by the DfT following a ministerial pledge and that if the fines were paying for it that would save TOCs money. Do on board staff use it for operational purposes (officially or unofficially)?

Apologies for going off topic.

 

[221129]

I had in mind that WiFi was being specified by the DfT following a ministerial pledge and that if the fines were paying for it that would save TOCs money. Do on board staff use it for operational purposes (officially or unofficially)?

Apologies for going off topic.

Yes they do. Obviously.

 

[221129]

Lol, but the cost on the day will hurt XC. The £4,000 dft fine per cancelled train that their twitter feed keeps quoting will run to hundreds of thousands of pounds. Then the delay repay and refunds will also run to tens of thousands. It is hurting XC I'm sure.

It won't cost XC anywhere near 4k to cancel these trains as they are taken out of the timetable in advance.

 

[HH]

It won't cost XC anywhere near 4k to cancel these trains as they are taken out of the timetable in advance.

Possibly what dk1 was getting at above.

Actually there are 2 ways they can avoid paying Schedule 8 - they can create a new, short term timetable and they can "P Code" some trains (basically cancel them the evening before so they are not in the Train Service Database for the day). They may also attract fines via Schedule 7 of the Franchise Agreement, but DfT usually give Force Majeure exemption.

Delay Repay is only paid for delay against the timetable on the day, so this would actually be lower, if anything.

Refunds are a genuine cost, however, and could arise on Advance Purchase tickets and possibly on seasons. Also they will likely take less revenue on the day.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Possibly what dk1 was getting at above.

Actually there are 2 ways they can avoid paying Schedule 8 - they can create a new, short term timetable and they can "P Code" some trains (basically cancel them the evening before so they are not in the Train Service Database for the day). They may also attract fines via Schedule 7 of the Franchise Agreement, but DfT usually give Force Majeure exemption.

Delay Repay is only paid for delay against the timetable on the day, so this would actually be lower, if anything.

Refunds are a genuine cost, however, and could arise on Advance Purchase tickets and possibly on seasons. Also they will likely take less revenue on the day.

So essentially only concequence of the RMT's action is to cause major anguish for thousands of passengers, increase public support for DOO, and make a very hard day for the person opperating the XC twitter feed!

Could Arriva's bid for the franchise renewal in 2019 be effected?

 

[Dai Corner]

So essentially only concequence of the RMT's action is to cause major anguish for thousands of passengers, increase public support for DOO, and make a very hard day for the person opperating the XC twitter feed!

Could Arriva's bid for the franchise renewal in 2019 be effected?

Maybe overtime for the planners and an easy day in the mess room for drivers booked to work but can't because their guards are not?

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Maybe overtime for the planners and an easy day in the mess room for drivers booked to work but can't because their guards are not?

And a fall in fuel costs and track-access charges? But a fall in catering sales too. On balance doesn't appear to be a financial disaster for XC/arriva really though if fines and penalties are negligable.