RMT dispute on XC

[HH]

So essentially only concequence of the RMT's action is to cause major anguish for thousands of passengers, increase public support for DOO, and make a very hard day for the person opperating the XC twitter feed!

Could Arriva's bid for the franchise renewal in 2019 be effected?

XC will lose money, but perhaps not as much as you would think. It depends on what they can run - clearly they will cancel the least profitable services first, insofar as they are able (they can't just run peak trains, for instance!). It's not a hugely profitable railway; VTWC would suffer more.

The only way that any future bid might be affected would be that DfT's evaluators are likely to scrutinise any plans that have the possibility for industrial action and possibly risk adjust the bid if they deem that Arriva are being over optimistic, given their past performance.

 

[Starmill]

Delay Repay is only paid for delay against the timetable on the day, so this would actually be lower, if anything.

Only with respect to customers who've bought tickets on the day.

 

[HH]

Only with respect to customers who've bought tickets on the day.

Advance Purchase Ticket holders who no longer had a train would be entitled to a refund; however that would not be Delay Repay. Season Ticket Holders may be offered some form of compensation, but it is also not Delay Repay.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

My daughter has missed Monday morning at work because I only spotted the 26/11 XC disruption last night an hour before she was due to travel (thank goodness for RealtimeTrains). Did I overlook some important information, or was passenger information deficient?

Basic customer care would require that anticipated disruption be indicated when someone uses an OJP to plan a journey that is likely to be affected. (Decent Customer Care would see companies emailing those who bought tickets as a result of a search that indicated that they were planning to travel at a time that was likely to see disruption - but let's not get too ambitious).

I booked the tickets (Virgin online) on Tuesday 21/11 - ie after the disruption on 19/11, with no apparent resolution of the dispute or retraction of the union instruction. I saw no clear indication of problems affecting the journey.

In retrospect, the only possible warning sign was that the explanation why I wasn't able to get reservations for the XC leg was given as "Reservation not possible".

As an outsider, this suggested to me all the bookable seats had already gone, or perhaps that the booking system was down. I didn't smell trouble. But reading this thread now, is "Reservation not possible" in fact a secret industry-insider code that is used only when disruption is expected - but designed to leave the general public in the dark?

 

[DarloRich]

The scene is the boardroom of a TOC.

Managing Director: Now we come to the notice of strike action received yesterday.
Personnel Director: what the guards are asking for would cost £1m
Finance Director: we can't afford that. We're barely profitable as it is.
Managing Director: Are we having trouble recruiting or retaining guards?
Personnel Director: No, not really. Plenty of applicants when we advertise vacancies.
Managing Director: What can we cover using non striking staff?
Operations Director: The core routes should be OK. People will welcome the extra cash.
Managing Director: It will do them good to get out and meet customers too.
Personnel Director: Are we saying "let them strike"?
Managing Director: Yes.
Marketing Director: There may be some loss of reputation leading to fewer passengers.
Operations Director: But we often have more passengers than we know what to do with.
Managing Director: Are we agreed then? Let them strike.
All: Yes, agreed.
Marketing Director: I'll email a draft press release to you all this afternoon.
Managing Director: Try not to make it read like an RMT rant
[laughter]

Managing Director: Next item....

Very good. Not unlike the reality of the situation. However the next item is often directors remuneration. Oddly they find the extra million for that pay demand.........................

 

[Starmill]

Advance Purchase Ticket holders who no longer had a train would be entitled to a refund; however that would not be Delay Repay.

Customers who use Advance tickets for cancelled trains on the next available train aren't entitled to a refund. Refunds are only for unused tickets (except in exceptional circumstances). Therefore, if the cancellation causes a delay of 30 minutes or more against the itinerary they purchased, Delay Repay is due.

 

[Starmill]

Did I overlook some important information, or was passenger information deficient?

Well, it depends where you were looking. If you were expecting an email or a phone call then you were looking in the wrong place. You would have needed to visit crosscountrytrains.co.uk to have been given any information prior to the date of travel, and on the date of travel it would have been clear from both their site and the banner at the top of nationalrail.co.uk.

 

[HH]

Customers who use Advance tickets for cancelled trains on the next available train aren't entitled to a refund. Refunds are only for unused tickets (except in exceptional circumstances). Therefore, if the cancellation causes a delay of 30 minutes or more against the itinerary they purchased, Delay Repay is due.

The whole point of AP tickets is that they are only valid on the train they are booked for. If a passenger is allowed to use an alternate service then they have transferred the ticket. They may make a claim against the original journey and probably the TOC will pay, but strictly speaking it's not delay repay.

 

[Starmill]

Of course it's Delay Repay. Why wouldn't an Advance ticket qualify for Delay Repay? There's no evidence to support that idea.

If a train is cancelled, as is happening in these circumstances, the customer must be accommodated on some kind of alternative service. This is not transferring a ticket. Transferring a ticket is giving it to someone else for them to use instead.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I've just spotted that XC fail to mention that TPE are only accepting XC tickets between Doncaster and Sheffield and Newcastle and Leeds, not on any other route. That effectively rules out people taking long detours such as Cardiff to Leeds via Hereford and Manchester rather than Birmingham, for example.

So TPE are attempting to accommodate displaced punters despite their own limitations and people are moaning about it?

from internal communications the understanding is XC services were running south of York and operating the core only (YRK/MAN-RDG/BRI) so TPE were essentially filling in the gap as were other operators (VTEC, GWR, EMT, SWR) XC pax still had to make use of the core part of the route. Maybe the exact limitations of capacity precluded using TPE LDS-MAN as this was expected to be massively busy but the outer reaches had capacity to offer. Better to provide something than nothing I would have thought....

 

[TheManOnThe172]

Well, it depends where you were looking. If you were expecting an email or a phone call then you were looking in the wrong place. You would have needed to visit crosscountrytrains.co.uk to have been given any information prior to the date of travel, and on the date of travel it would have been clear from both their site and the banner at the top of nationalrail.co.uk.

To draw a parallel, this is like having a telephone without a bell or ringtone - you CAN find the information (eg that someone wants to call you) but you have to keep checking (eg by picking up the phone and saying "hello" every 30 seconds) in case there is something for you to know (ie that someone is calling you).

For passengers making single-TOC journeys, booking on the TOC's own website is clearly a less-bad option. But for any journey involving more than one TOC, this requires a dissection of the journey to check which operators you are using, then scrutiny of the individual TOC websites: a process which the passenger may need to repeat daily after booking if they want decent warning of disruption.

If we forget about telling already-booked passengers about new issues (is that really so fanciful?), it should at least be possible to present already-known info at the point of planning or booking a journey. Is there no system for known-in-advance service issues for all TOCs to be presented to passengers of potentially-affected services whichever booking engine they are using?

 

[yorkie]

Delay Repay is only paid for delay against the timetable on the day, so this would actually be lower, if anything.

This is absolutely not true. Delay Repay is based on delay against the timetable at the time of purchase.

 

[221129]

My daughter has missed Monday morning at work because I only spotted the 26/11 XC disruption last night an hour before she was due to travel (thank goodness for RealtimeTrains). Did I overlook some important information, or was passenger information deficient?

Basic customer care would require that anticipated disruption be indicated when someone uses an OJP to plan a journey that is likely to be affected. (Decent Customer Care would see companies emailing those who bought tickets as a result of a search that indicated that they were planning to travel at a time that was likely to see disruption - but let's not get too ambitious).

I booked the tickets (Virgin online) on Tuesday 21/11 - ie after the disruption on 19/11, with no apparent resolution of the dispute or retraction of the union instruction. I saw no clear indication of problems affecting the journey.

In retrospect, the only possible warning sign was that the explanation why I wasn't able to get reservations for the XC leg was given as "Reservation not possible".

As an outsider, this suggested to me all the bookable seats had already gone, or perhaps that the booking system was down. I didn't smell trouble. But reading this thread now, is "Reservation not possible" in fact a secret industry-insider code that is used only when disruption is expected - but designed to leave the general public in the dark?

So you booked using a completely different company and are wondering why XC didn't contact you... The mind boggles...

Just as an FYI, the disruption message has been on their website for about a week and a half now and had you booked direct with XC then you likely would have got an email. I did and I haven't booked travel with them for over a year now! There has been posters up at stations and messages on social media so I don't think passenger information has been deficient. So you are just trying to shift the blame due to you not checking before travel.

 

[trainophile]

Just had an email from TPE saying they are processing a refund for my unused XC tickets on 19th.

 

[Starmill]

but the outer reaches had capacity to offer.

I don't know what your experience of as you call it the "outer reaches" - and I am thinking of York to Newcastle here - is generally like, but mine is of trains which are full and standing, including occasionally with limited remaining standing space (people standing up in First Class and filling the 'ballroom' and all down the aisles in Standard.

 

[Starmill]

Is there no system for known-in-advance service issues for all TOCs to be presented to passengers of potentially-affected services whichever booking engine they are using?

In order for the retailer of tickets to, as you say, give their customers all of the "known-in-advance" information, the train operator has to actually upload that information. CrossCountry, for their own reasons, chose not to upload the new timetable for Sunday 26th November until Friday 24th. Prior to that point, trainline etc. who sell tickets have really got no choice but to do so on the basis of whatever timetable XC had uploaded for that Sunday already, even though all parties were already aware that this would bear little resemblance to the timetable that actually would be running. So, up until 2 days before the industrial action, people booking tickets for XC trains that XC knew would not be running were still told that they would be running.

So you are just trying to shift the blame due to you not checking before travel.

This is pretty defensive language - does someone have a point to prove? TheManOnThe172 did not really blame anyone, he certainly was not being hostile in a way that warrants this kind of response. There is no sense in which booking with another company (who are acting like your travel agent) invalidates the expectation of the passenger to receive updates and information about their trip, so exactly what your mind is 'boggling' at I do not know. However, if you wish to discuss this in detail then I would suggest creating a new thread to do so.

 

[I13]

CrossCountry have updated their strike webpage to include details about the upcoming action this weekend. Link here.

 

[trainophile]

Can't help wondering whether striking on Xmas Eve and NY Eve is more about staff not wanting to work those days than whatever it is they are in dispute over (I lose track).

 

[387star]

Surely xc is trying to reach agreement with the rmt to avert this

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As christmas eve and NYE both fall on a sunday and the staff are refusing to work their voluntary overtime...

(its NOT a strike! Peddaling it as a strike will only turn the punters against the staff, no doubt what XC and the DfT want to garner sympathy and reinforce the DOO position. The RMT are also not helping by describing it as a strike as it is making them look more militant and unwilling to resolve matters)

... Im inclined to agree on that theory but to be fair trains are usually quiet and finish early on both days anyway and the overtime would probably come in handy for many when the january credit card bills hit the doormat. Taking "industrial action" on these days therefore these guys really have something they are trying to say

 

[DarloRich]

As christmas eve and NYE both fall on a sunday and the staff are refusing to work their voluntary overtime...

(its NOT a strike! Peddaling it as a strike will only turn the punters against the staff, no doubt what XC and the DfT want to garner sympathy and reinforce the DOO position. The RMT are also not helping by describing it as a strike as it is making them look more militant and unwilling to resolve matters)

They should be getting someone terribly reasonable and properly trained out into the media saying:

Our members are not on strike. They are working to their contracted hours. This simply shows how foreign owned train operators put their profits ahead of your convenience because they wont employ enough people to run a proper service and rely on our members working every hour available to them to keep the service running. This is having a terrible effect on our members who are regularly working ( insert large number here) hours beyond the call, at all times and in all weathers. etc etc.

You get to blame the foreign ownership, Tories, privatization, greedy fat cats and look like you are trying to protect your members who are working massive overtime to keep the trains rolling.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Far too sensible. As long as the strike word is banded and peddaled about as much as it is both the unrest and the connected resentment will grow. I dont think the dark days of 1985 will return but just as back then I see little that will be gained as things currently stand. Even the RMT are dressing this up as a strike which isnt the truth.

And as a train manager/conductor/guard that actually deeply worries me....

Theres not enough emphasis being put on the positive role, its all about the negative and far too many proof stories on how the industry can manage without are floating about, especially with 30 years of *coughs* successful DOO operational experience.

 

[xc170]

Are the RMT trying to do as much damage to passsneger numbers and the reputation of the railways as possible?

Got to the point now where I, along with many others, have lost all sympathy for these striking staff, if they don't want the job then there is plenty of unemployed people out there that would jump at the chance of stable, full time employment.

Peace out.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Are the RMT trying to do as much damage to passsneger numbers and the reputation of the railways as possible?

Got to the point now where I, along with many others, have lost all sympathy for these striking staff, if they don't want the job then there is plenty of unemployed people out there that would jump at the chance of stable, full time employment.

Peace out.

This, in spades.

 

[peter166]

Got to the point now where I, along with many others, have lost all sympathy for these striking staff, if they don't want the job then there is plenty of unemployed people out there that would jump at the chance of stable, full time

Totally agrree ! ( you might have added "well paid" as well)

 

[HLE]

Okay so a little scenario.

You are contracted to work Monday to Saturday, on shifts which vary and at some point over a period of time will require you to be in work at any given point during the day & night. A mixture of earlies, days and nights unless you mutually agree a permanent swap with a colleague.

This is the XC guards contract, as I understand it. It’s their job to work between Monday to Friday on a given roster. Sunday’s are voluntary, outside the working week and aren’t required to be worked. It’s pure overtime. That’s not the guards fault, if it’s not in their contract why can’t you refuse to work it and do some Christmas shopping? It’s their day off! The incentive is that it’s overtime but you miss the point - overtime is voluntary.

Just because some on here may act like good little boys and girls and do exactly as the teacher says without question, no matter what they ask, doesn’t mean everyone has to.

And yes, the last paragraph isn’t meant literally but we’ve all met those in the workplace that will do anything management ask of them without question. How our ancestors would turn in their graves.

 

[HLE]

Are the RMT trying to do as much damage to passsneger numbers and the reputation of the railways as possible?

Got to the point now where I, along with many others, have lost all sympathy for these striking staff, if they don't want the job then there is plenty of unemployed people out there that would jump at the chance of stable, full time employment.

Peace out.

Stable? DOO is being introduced on other operators and will spread.

How on earth is the guards role stable these days?

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Stable? DOO is being introduced on other operators and will spread.

How on earth is the guards role stable these days?

It'll spread alot quicker if the rmt continue with actions over t's and c's like we are seeing on virgin and xc. Essentially, by attempting to keep guards safety critical, the rmt are attempting to keep the right to strike. With actions like these causing chaos at xmas it's quite easy to see why the dft want a downgrading in guards' status.

 

[pt_mad]

Got to the point now where I, along with many others, have lost all sympathy for these striking staff, if they don't want the job then there is plenty of unemployed people out there that would jump at the chance of stable, full time employment.

Peace out.

But after these unemployed people that would jump at the job got some experience and joined the trade unions, there is every possibility they too would participate in such action should the need arise.

After all, some of the guards of today could have been unemployed at some point, but that doesn't stop the want to protect or improve one's conditions wherever possible over their working career.

There's a fair chance a lot of these high paid managers and directors in the private sector that we keep hearing about in the papers the media and politics make every effort to maintain or improve their good conditions.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Yes, sundays are VOLUNTARY on XC as they are on TPE - the difference however with TPE if the shift cannot be covered by a rest day volunteer TPE guards are still required to work the booked shift. XC have no requirement to work at all.

Like I said it is NOT a strike. Staff are choosing to not work their booked sundays and are not contractually obliged to do so. both RMT and XC need to be upfront and honest as to what is really going on and stop calling it a strike. It is action short of a strike known as working to rule, which basically means working the required and booked hours and nothing more. If anything this will prove how much over-reliance on overtime and short-staffed the rail industry as a whole actually is.