Rolling Stock - masses of stock coming off lease

[Essan]

Looking into it, does look like IETs will probably replace everything. So I stand corrected

 

[Malcolmffc]

I doubt the CO2 emissions alone will be enough of a case to electrify the Chiltern line, especially given the central London portion of the line is in tunnel.

AIUI the main reason for the original decision to electricity the GW line was that the HSTs needed replacement anyway and the electrification would be “paid for” by the reduced costs of electric stock.

 

[samogers]

I doubt the CO2 emissions alone will be enough of a case to electrify the Chiltern line, especially given the central London portion of the line is in tunnel.

AIUI the main reason for the original decision to electricity the GW line was that the HSTs needed replacement anyway and the electrification would be “paid for” by the reduced costs of electric stock.

Maybe in this case then, it could make sense to electrify the Chiltern line and improve line speeds once the bulk of Chiltern's DMU fleet becomes life expired, and order/cascade electric trains rather than new diesels

 

[43096]

Oops... forgot we were getting them! But are all the services being replace with IETs? I thought it'd just be those currently operated by HSTs, with the Adelantes still running in between?

180s go by the end of this year for transfer to Grand Central.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

180s go by the end of this year for transfer to Grand Central.

Well the ones with the original 2002 GW interior had better get a refurbishment or this will spell the end for GC!

 

[superalbs]

Well the ones with the original 2002 GW interior had better get a refurbishment or this will spell the end for GC!

GC are at present the only operator yet to do anything with the Class 180s in standard class, still has default FirstGroup interior, rather poorly. :/

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Rather poorly? Horrendously poorly. GC are not a patch on VTEC and trust me I will be coming back with any debates on that. Bring it on

 

[Starmill]

They have all got First Group interiors. But not all of them are the original interior. The Hull Trains and Great Western Ones have different seat covers and carpets and lots of other things replaced. They are still in a pretty tatty state though.

The Grand Central ones are not in such a bad condition as some people like to make out, yes they still have the original pattern of seat covers but most of those covers have been replaced. First Class got entirely new carpet, wall and seat covers very recently. Grand Central do not seem especially interested in onboard quality though, as evidenced by the removal of their guarantee to pay part refunds to anyone who used their train and didn't get a seat, and their free tea and coffee.

Until recently, VTEC had pretty foul interiors that were horribly worn and scruffy. Their refurbishment programme was several months late in beginning and even more late being completed. They also used two ex-EMT sets that were in an even more awful state for years. I remember I sat on one that had nearly every seat cushion and seat-back table broken from London to Dundee which was deeply unpleasant. The main reasons for the delay seemed to be the desire to re-brand everything in the shortest possible time, as the Virgin school of thinking is that red vinyls and the word 'Virgin' are more likely to generate revenue than a train with a clean, smart interior.

There isn't really an argument that one has done a great job and the other is rubbish.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, the HT and current GW ones are fine, its the awful original interior that's so shoddy.

 

[Mikey C]

I doubt the CO2 emissions alone will be enough of a case to electrify the Chiltern line, especially given the central London portion of the line is in tunnel.

AIUI the main reason for the original decision to electricity the GW line was that the HSTs needed replacement anyway and the electrification would be “paid for” by the reduced costs of electric stock.

Nothing to do with CO2, it's NOx and diesel particulates which are the big political (and environmental) issue now. Diesel road vehicles will face increasing restrictions in Central London, it would be odd and politically tricky in 10/15 years time if all the buses running along the Marylebone Road were electric, while the trains running into the station were all diesel.

Slightly off topic, but Birmingham and especially New Street faces similar issues

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are TFL Rail going to use 360s then or not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slightly off topic, but Birmingham and especially New Street faces similar issues

And it stinks. Just not nice, regardless of any health issues.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I do long to visit New Street some day soon, despite the negative reviews

 

[Prestige15]

Was thinking, Would it make sense if EMU such as 350/2 or 379's gets upgraded to 110 mph and sent to cross country and use them on the Birmingham - Manchester, Realeasing the Voyagers for other work? Possibly a hourly EMU to Birmingham and hourly voyagers to elsewhere.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are TFL Rail going to use 360s then or not?

TfL Rail will use 9 car 345s running at 4 tph from May 2018 to replace the 2 tph Heathrow Connect 360s. Known from published TfL information.

 

[swt_passenger]

Was thinking, Would it make sense if EMU such as 350/2 or 379's gets upgraded to 110 mph and sent to cross country and use them on the Birmingham - Manchester, Realeasing the Voyagers for other work? Possibly a hourly EMU to Birmingham and hourly voyagers to elsewhere.

Highly unlikely I believe, because you'd need more platform capacity at New St to do that.

 

[Prestige15]

Highly unlikely I believe, because you'd need more platform capacity at New St to do that.

That could be solved if they were run to Birmingham international or maybe even Coventry. Like Virgin Cross Country use to do back then.

 

[sd0733]

That could be solved if they were run to Birmingham international or maybe even Coventry. Like Virgin Cross Country use to do back then.

Maybe even Rugby as platform 6 is bi-Di so could provide a useful service. Give it to the west midlands franchise...keep a batch of /2s refurbish them and would act as a useful service and release voyagers to strengthen.
Maybe that's one for a fantasy thread!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Maybe even Rugby as platform 6 is bi-Di so could provide a useful service. Give it to the west midlands franchise...keep a batch of /2s refurbish them and would act as a useful service and release voyagers to strengthen.
Maybe that's one for a fantasy thread!

With the new West Midlands franchise working with NR to reduce platform occupancy time at New Street to improve performance for all operators another terminating service would be a non runner. As for continuing east there are no spare paths.

 

[Failed Unit]

With the new West Midlands franchise working with NR to reduce platform occupancy time at New Street to improve performance for all operators another terminating service would be a non runner. As for continuing east there are no spare paths.

Amazing how things come full circle. Central trains used to run lots of trains across Birmingham but the SRA thought this was a bad thing and made them split them.

Examples Shrewsbury - Leicester (including starting / finishing in Wales / East Midlands)
Hereford- Nottingham.

Coincidence may routes ended up in different franchises.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Post Privatization DMU's now known to be coming off lease.

22 x 3 car Class 185's TPE
32 x 2 & 3 car Class 170's GA
52 x 2 & 3 car Class 170's LM

that's a 150 carriages.......

 

[Mordac]

Post Privatization DMU's now known to be coming off lease.

22 x 3 car Class 185's TPE
32 x 2 & 3 car Class 170's GA
52 x 2 & 3 car Class 170's LM

that's a 150 carriages.......

As well as preprivatisation:
5 x 2 car Class 156 Scotrail
9 x 2 car Class 156 Greater Anglia
8 x 1 car Class 153 London Midland
5 x 1 car Class 153 Greater Anglia
17 x 1 car Class 153 Northern (1 going to EMT)

Plus the Pacers, but those are probably going straight to Booths

 

[Mikey C]

I'm sure all those DMUs (ignoring the Pacers) will get a home with the need to strengthen services and the requirement for stock when lines reopen.

East West rail will need a significant number of DMUs for a start, presumably 170s?

 

[Harbornite]

Would it make sense if EMU such as 350/2 or 379's gets upgraded to 110 mph and sent to cross country and use them on the Birmingham - Manchester, Realeasing the Voyagers for other work? Possibly a hourly EMU to Birmingham and hourly voyagers to elsewhere.

Not really when you consider that you wouldn't be able to run Manchester- Bristol or Exeter services with those units until the relevant routes are electrified. If people would be willing to put up with a reduction in through services then it would be a good idea.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just hope EMT get some to strengthen service as a minimum or improve frequencies. It would be a shame if the region continues to suffer overcrowded 153s

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm sure all those DMUs (ignoring the Pacers) will get a home with the need to strengthen services and the requirement for stock when lines reopen.

East West rail will need a significant number of DMUs for a start, presumably 170s?

Unless Daft change their franchising policy and force the winners of EMT/W&B/XC/Chiltern to take cascaded stock or the cheap financing of new stock ends were going to end up with sidings full of DMU's with plenty of miles still on them and new fleets that have increased the capacity on lines by single figure %.

 

[bramling]

Unless Daft change their franchising policy and force the winners of EMT/W&B/XC/Chiltern to take cascaded stock or the cheap financing of new stock ends were going to end up with sidings full of DMU's with plenty of miles still on them and new fleets that have increased the capacity on lines by single figure %.

I wouldn't be surprised to find, ten years from now, perhaps with some EMUs having been stored, scrapped or even exported, we still read here about short overcrowded services.

It's all very well buying new fleets, but there's a tendency for numbers to be pared down to the bare minimum. A long and uncrowded old train is way preferable to a short and crowded new one.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I wouldn't be surprised to find, ten years from now, perhaps with some EMUs having been stored, scrapped or even exported, we still read here about short overcrowded services.

It's all very well buying new fleets, but there's a tendency for numbers to be pared down to the bare minimum. A long and uncrowded old train is way preferable to a short and crowded new one.

Indeed unless you have some ex BR stock with miles on the clock and are not politically toxic (i.e Pacer) then the franchising bidding process and cheap finance is making you choose to buy new with a 10% or so uplift in capacity regardless of what is already there or any national policy as all these franchises are being let sequentially in their own little bubble world. XC is full of 17-20 year old post privatization DMU/DEMU's and whats desperately needed is a major uplift in capacity between York/Birmingham/Bristol & Reading/Birmingham/Manchester. What well see on current form is a brand new fleet that only marginally adds capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. One thing XC could do is to run Manchester services to Birmingham International only, and to run those using 91+Mk4 sets (or 90+Mk3) when those become available. That would free up some Voyagers to lengthen other sets as well as improving the quality of the travelling environment at the expense of a change at International (which might be pleasant northbound as you'd be getting on a totally empty set with plenty of space).

 

[Chester1]

Indeed unless you have some ex BR stock with miles on the clock and are not politically toxic (i.e Pacer) then the franchising bidding process and cheap finance is making you choose to buy new with a 10% or so uplift in capacity regardless of what is already there or any national policy as all these franchises are being let sequentially in their own little bubble world. XC is full of 17-20 year old post privatization DMU/DEMU's and whats desperately needed is a major uplift in capacity between York/Birmingham/Bristol & Reading/Birmingham/Manchester. What well see on current form is a brand new fleet that only marginally adds capacity.

It depends on whether Roscos adapt and lower their prices to avoid units going off lease. If the alternative is an asset rusting in sidings then leasing them at a very low price is the best option. There is not an excess of stock yet. Apart from the 319s there is very little off lease currently and the Mark IIIs are old. Hopefully the Roscos will slash their prices for South Eastern, EM and XC. I am not convinced that there will be an excess of DMUs. They are mostly leased until early 2020s and the sprinters will due for scrapping in the next 10 years.