Rude Thameslink RPI doesn't want to show ID

[Journo]

Good day, I was wondering if one of you railway experts could advise me. I am currently writing a complaint to Thameslink about the behaviour of one of their revenue protection staff this morning.

This morning I was on the 0716 from Streatham to London Blackfriars. Just before we arrived at Elephant and Castle there was a Revenue Protection Inspector checking tickets.

When he reached me I asked to see his ID, he then asked why I wanted to see it and I stated that as I was using my bank card I wanted to check his identity. Instead of being shown the ID I was then told that I use my bankcard and if I do not like using it then I should get an Oystercard, I said that was all well and good but I would still like to see some ID. I would say this interaction took around two minutes before he would show his ID, and then when he did he tutted, and called me pathetic.

I find this totally unacceptable, I hope that you can remind your RPIs that when a member of the public asks to see their ID then they should show it. As far as I am aware all RPIs should have an authorised collectors pass or warrant badge.

Maybe you could also remind them of Bylaw 24(3) "An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person"

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Is there anything else I should add it? Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s a good enough email to send, and thankfully not a long rant (!) but don’t expect anything to happen. GTR do not give a flying toss.

 

[matt_world2004]

Did you get the rpis name? Or identification number from the id? If so put it in the email.

 

[Smethwickian]

A perfectly reasonable email to my mind.
Our banks constantly remind us not to let cards out of our sight, not to put them in any cash machine or on any device we suspect of being tampered with, and not to give any account numbers to anyone without being assured of their bona-fides.
So I too would not be in too much of a hurry to proffer my bank card to anyone who demanded it out of the blue who was not clearly identifiable as an authorised person.

 

[Journo]

Did you get the rpis name? Or identification number from the id? If so put it in the email.

Sadly he showed it so fast I didn't get any details from it, however I cannot imagine they have many RPIs working on that route, I have never seen one before.

It’s a good enough email to send, and thankfully not a long rant (!) but don’t expect anything to happen. GTR do not give a flying toss.

I fear this will be the case. However I will just carry on ranting about them.

 

[matt_world2004]

I was working with someone who was dealing with an heated argument with a passenger once, they refused to give their ID to them in the heat of the argument, so I ended up providing mine to the passenger despite not being involved with the argument . The organisation could identify the person I was working with as the basis of the complaint

 

[falcon]

Sadly he showed it so fast I didn't get any details from it,.

So you were not really intersted in verifying his identity at all then.

 

[furlong]

Precisely which power conferred by the byelaws do you believe he was exercising? (State it.)
If you believe an offence was committed, that might be a matter for the transport police to investigate.
Were there any witnesses? Did any of them volunteer their contact details? Or would it just be your word against his? Was there CCTV?

 

[Starmill]

If someone called me 'pathetic' I would just ignore them and not engage in any further conversation with them. How anyone trained for a customer service role could ever do that, I do not know. Sadly I have seen similar examples of this with my own eyes before.

 

[Journo]

Precisely which power conferred by the byelaws do you believe he was exercising? (State it.)
If you believe an offence was committed, that might be a matter for the transport police to investigate.
Were there any witnesses? Did any of them volunteer their contact details? Or would it just be your word against his? Was there CCTV?

I would assume Bylaw 17 or 18 are the ones being enforced here. I do not think he committed an offence, I did not say he committed an offence, however if he had not provided ID then he would have.

Yes there were witnesses, it was a train in London.. I can only hope there was CCTV too.

 

[AlterEgo]

People have a tendency to vastly overestimate the usefulness of CCTV on this forum.

It doesn't record sound and it will simply show you in discussion with the RPI and him (eventually) showing his ID. It will not stop the RPI from coming up with their own version of how the conversation went.

CCTV is basically a pain in the bum to get hold of and will do very little except identify an "offender", whoever that may be.

 

[Journo]

Oh yes, whenever I get CCTV from the Met or BTP it's always very poor quality. Sound rarely comes into it. If this ever happens again I'll just audio record it

I'm happy for the RPI to say whatever he wants to say. It simply boils down to the fact the chap was rude and didn't want to show his ID.

 

[Journo]

So you were not really intersted in verifying his identity at all then.

I was happy with his ID to the extent that I believe he works for the railway.

 

[Journo]

If someone called me 'pathetic' I would just ignore them and not engage in any further conversation with them. How anyone trained for a customer service role could ever do that, I do not know. Sadly I have seen similar examples of this with my own eyes before.

Yep, it's a shame. I believe that people in these kind of roles should be willing to do anything they can to aid customers, not behave like a child. I frequently have to show my ID for things and do it happily

 

[AM9]

Yep, it's a shame. I believe that people in these kind of roles should be willing to do anything they can to aid customers, not behave like a child. I frequently have to show my ID for things and do it happily

A phone camera is very useful when somebody posing as an official refuses to give evidence of it.

 

[EM2]

Oh yes, whenever I get CCTV from the Met or BTP it's always very poor quality. Sound rarely comes into it. If this ever happens again I'll just audio record it

Sound should rarely come into it. The CCTV Code Of Practice imposes very stringent conditions with regard to audio recording.
https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1542/cctv-code-of-practice.pdf

Surveillance systems should not normally be used to record conversations between members of the public as this is highly intrusive and unlikely to be justified. You should choose a system without this facility if possible. If your system comes equipped with an independent sound recording facility then you should turn this off or disable it in some other way, unless you can clearly justify its use with robust supporting evidence.
...
The use of audio recording, particularly where it is continuous, will, in most situations, be considered more privacy intrusive than purely visual recording. Its use will therefore require much greater justification. Audio recording should only be used where:
 You have identified a need or issue which can be characterised as a pressing social need and can evidence that this need must be addressed.
1. You have considered other less privacy intrusive methods of addressing the need.
2. Having reviewed the other less privacy intrusive methods, you have concluded that these will not appropriately address the identified issue and the only way to address the issue is through the use of audio recording.
3. You should ensure that at the point of purchase of the audio system all appropriate privacy by design methods have been incorporated into the system. If you have already bought the system, you should look to see if you can incorporate any privacy by design technologies.
4. If you are using audio recording you should make sure that the system you have bought provides a high enough quality of recording to achieve your stated aim.
5. You should make it clear to data subjects that audio recording is taking place, over and above any visual recording which is already occurring.
6. The best way to make sure these requirements are met is to carry out a thorough privacy impact assessment. (Please also see section 7.2 for specific detail on audio recording in relation to BWV systems).
Below are some examples of where audio monitoring and recording may be justified. However, if you can evidence that you have gone through the process above, you may be able to justify other uses of audio recording.
 Audio based alert systems, such as those triggered by changes in noise patterns such as sudden shouting. Conversations must not be recorded, and operators should not listen in.
 Two-way audio feeds from ‘help points’ covered by CCTV cameras, where these are activated by the person requiring assistance.
 Conversations between staff and particular individuals where a reliable record is needed of what was said so it might be used as evidence in an investigation, such as in the charging area of a police custody suite.
 Where recording is triggered due to a specific threat.

 

[Journo]

A phone camera is very useful when somebody posing as an official refuses to give evidence of it.

I have a whole range of cameras in my bag...

 

[falcon]

I was happy with his ID to the extent that I believe he works for the railway.

You yourself said "I didn't get any details from it" so therfore you did not want to see his ID at all you wanted something else, something that you needed to feel satisfied. Didn't you?

 

[Journo]

You yourself said "I didn't get any details from it" so therfore you did not want to see his ID at all you wanted something else, something that you needed to feel satisfied. Didn't you?

The photo marched, the metal badge was from Thameslink, that was enough for me...

 

[Darandio]

I have a whole range of cameras in my bag...

Whole range of cameras, username of 'Journo'. Which newspaper/website is it going to be on then?

 

[Journo]

Whole range of cameras, username of 'Journo'. Which newspaper/website is it going to be on then?

I actually work in radio...

 

[matt_world2004]

You yourself said "I didn't get any details from it" so therfore you did not want to see his ID at all you wanted something else, something that you needed to feel satisfied. Didn't you?

I can perfectly understand why someone would want to verify that they are an employee of the company before handing over their debit card, all that requires in most cases is a quick glance at the company name and photograph, Also I imagine if someone is being herranged by an RPI then they are going to want to get the encounter over as quickly as possible

Perhaps if the RPI didn't want to display I'd to the people whose tickets he's checking he shouldn't be an RPI,

 

[Realfish]

You yourself said "I didn't get any details from it" so therfore you did not want to see his ID at all you wanted something else, something that you needed to feel satisfied. Didn't you?

That seems unnecessarily confrontational.

Putting aside a passenger's right to be treated with respect, the OP has made an interesting observation. We know from these forums that there have been cases of bogus fare collectors (on Merseyrail), add to that technology can be found on the dark web which can be used to either interrogate or deduct money from contactless cards and I don't blame anyone for being a bit circumspect when proffering a contactless card for inspection.

 

[Journo]

That seems unnecessarily confrontational.

Putting aside a passenger's right to be treated with respect, the OP has made an interesting observation. We know from these forums that there have been cases of bogus fare collectors (on Merseyrail), add to that technology can be found on the dark web which can be used to either interrogate or deduct money from contactless cards and I don't blame anyone for being a bit circumspect when proffering a contactless card for inspection.

I do tend to agree with you. I interviewed the head of commercial banking or a large international bank group today (after the rude RPI), and their advice was not to provide card details to anyone unless they were willing to prove they needed them.

I did not think my request was unreasonable.

My local coffee shop has an iZettle machine (which you can but from Maplin on sale now for about £20). which will take up to the maximum amount your contactless card will allow without needing to enter a PIN (£30 on some cards, but seems to be more on devices like apple/Android pay), all I wanted was some ID from the chap (which his company gave him, and I know this because he had it in his possession, I can only assume they didn't give him ID because it looks nice).

I have been check by TfL RPOs before and they were happy enough to show ID, as was the plainclothes BTP officer the time I interacted with them, Southern the same, FGW, this was the first time it made me feel like I was doing something wrong.

 

[falcon]

I do tend to agree with you. I interviewed the head of commercial banking or a large international bank group today (after the rude RPI), and their advice was not to provide card details to anyone unless they were willing to prove they needed them.

I did not think my request was unreasonable.

My local coffee shop has an iZettle machine (which you can but from Maplin on sale now for about £20). which will take up to the maximum amount your contactless card will allow without needing to enter a PIN (£30 on some cards, but seems to be more on devices like apple/Android pay), all I wanted was some ID from the chap (which his company gave him, and I know this because he had it in his possession, I can only assume they didn't give him ID because it looks nice).

I have been check by TfL RPOs before and they were happy enough to show ID, as was the plainclothes BTP officer the time I interacted with them, Southern the same, FGW, this was the first time it made me feel like I was doing something wrong.

Then why did you not get the ID if that is what you genuinely wanted. You said it yoursef you did not obtain the ID so how do you know that the individual was what he should be. You don't. You do not have his ID and have no more information than you did before you asked to see it.

As I said was there a desire to satisfiy another need. How many other people did you see ask the RPI for his ID?

My god he could have been ripping em all off!

 

[falcon]

The photo marched, the metal badge was from Thameslink, that was enough for me...

Uniform no good then. Other agenda mate! you ain't going to con me.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Then why did you not get the ID if that is what you genuinely wanted. You said it yoursef you did not obtain the ID so how do you know that the individual was what he should be. You don't. You do not have his ID and have no more information than you did before you asked to see it.

As I said was there a desire to satisfiy another need. How many other people did you see ask the RPI for his ID?

My god he could have been ripping em all off!

I agree with other posters that you are being perhaps a little unduly harsh on Journo. It is the right of every passenger to require RPIs, ticket inspectors etc. to require proof of ID when asked to show tickets or to pay for a new ticket. The law does not require people to have a reason for doing so. As for why no-one else presumably asked for the ID, I don't think that 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' would know that it is their right to ask this.

 

[falcon]

I agree with other posters that you are being perhaps a little unduly harsh on Journo. It is the right of every passenger to require RPIs, ticket inspectors etc. to require proof of ID when asked to show tickets or to pay for a new ticket. The law does not require people to have a reason for doing so. As for why no-one else presumably asked for the ID, I don't think that 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' would know that it is their right to ask this.

If he wanted ID so he could persue any matter at a later date or refuse to use a bank card then why did he not obtain it.?

He has said that he saw a badge and photo so that did it for him. The uniform was not good enough then!

Journo thought it was important enough to ask in public for ID. Was that because he was worried about his bank details being obtained by a possible rogue dressed as a Thameslink RPI checking tickets who was harvesting bank card details?

Did he really want the details or something else? You decide for yourself.

I would at least discribe it as odd behaviour regardless of whether "the man on the clapham omnibus" knows he is entitled to ask for ID or not.

 

[matt_world2004]

If he wanted ID so he could persue any matter at a later date or refuse to use a bank card then why did he not obtain it.?

He has said that he saw a badge and photo so that did it for him. The uniform was not good enough then!

Journo thought it was important enough to ask in public for ID. Was that because he was worried about his bank details being obtained by a possible rogue dressed as a Thameslink RPI checking tickets who was harvesting bank card details?

Did he really want the details or something else? You decide for yourself.

I would at least discribe it as odd behaviour regardless of whether "the man on the clapham omnibus" knows he is entitled to ask for ID or not.

What? He checked the id and the picture and was satisfied it matched up.

 

[bb21]

If he wanted ID so he could persue any matter at a later date or refuse to use a bank card then why did he not obtain it.?

He has said that he saw a badge and photo so that did it for him. The uniform was not good enough then!

Journo thought it was important enough to ask in public for ID. Was that because he was worried about his bank details being obtained by a possible rogue dressed as a Thameslink RPI checking tickets who was harvesting bank card details?

Did he really want the details or something else? You decide for yourself.

I would at least discribe it as odd behaviour regardless of whether "the man on the clapham omnibus" knows he is entitled to ask for ID or not.

I don't think it matters what the customer's intentions were.

The RPI had an obligation to produce official proof of authority on demand whilst on duty, and do so professionally. He made a right mess of that.