Rural line reopenings - which one?

[cle]

You can comfortably serve Gatwick and Three Bridges if the lower BML is down for any reason - they both can turn many services from London, plus Horsham and beyond services too.

Capacity works at Hurst Green would not be too difficult - many more tph can work across such a junction, and should be considered an integral part of an Uckfield-Lewes project. As would 12 car platform extensions and third rail from Hurst Green down.

Think what could be done with all those nice 171s...

 

[yorksrob]

If it can’t take the whole capacity then you still need the RRBs and how do you decide who gets the train?

First come first served.

A lot of closures will be at weekends and off peak. You would then get peak loadings when you otherwise wouldn't expect them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bangor to Caernarfon - fantastic castle and gateway to Snowdonia

I couldn't think of one, but I would go with that - the benefits would be quite high, as you say not just for access for tourists, but also as part of an improved Snowdon Sherpa network.

Penrith to Keswick - support policy to reduce car traffic in Lake District

Might be nice, but just putting the fast, frequent bus service into the train timetable and fares system would be a start. The bus service there is an oddity as it runs almost as fast as a train would as pretty much the entire route is on dual carriageway (though it strays off to serve a few villages).

 

[bluenoxid]

Stoke-on-Trent to Leek is jumping out at me in the list of proposals not mentioned so far.

 

[Clayton]

Wouldn’t you want to continue to Carterton? Big place, lots of employment. Possibility of military use (they chuck some big stuff on those cargo planes, though I assume they don’t do trainloads of soldiers for security reasons??)

Carterton is a growth area so yes that could open it up and move it up market. Don’t reckon squaddies are rail users and I haven’t heard of rail to military bases being much of a thing.

 

[tbtc]

Exactly ! The most you're going to get through Uckfield is 2tph given the contentions at Hurst Green with East Grinstead services. Brighton despatches 8 tph to London, there's no way you're even going to provide half the capacity the BML does as a diversion - so to argue "diversion" benefits when the replacement line simply won't have the capacity is disingenuous. And that's before you deal with the fact of the intermediate stations, which on the BML include the likes of Gatwick Airport and Crawley neither of which are lightly used.

If it can’t take the whole capacity then you still need the RRBs and how do you decide who gets the train?

Agree with the above points - there seems to be a fixation on ticking a box by providing some token direct train service, even if that still leaves 90% of passengers on replacement buses.

It sounds nice, a cherry on top of the cake, to try to make a re-opening look more important (as per the recent thread on how we should apparently be diverting Anglo-Scottish services on a scenic detour via through Settle rather than a fast coach up the M6)

But, if maintaining a direct Brighton - London service were of such critical importance then how come we don't just run via Arundel in the event of the line through Haywards Heath being unavailable? You could even run them through Epsom if it were so necessary to keep a direct train service and the line through Croydon were similarly disrupted.

So, IMHO, it's important to be realistic about the fact that, even if you spent hundreds of millions of pounds on an Uckfield expansion, you'd still see the TOC hiring buses every time the BML closes. Just like the way that, deep down, we all know that Cornish passengers would be put on buses to get to Devon even if you built a line from Tavistock to Okehampton.

Also, if the Uckfield branch is so busy as to need 10x23m 171s, where's the room for Lewes passengers (if you extended services)? And where do the Lewes/ Uckfield passengers go when the BML closes? Do you think it'd be popular amongst Uckfield passengers that "we are spending hundreds of millions of pounds on your line so that we can close your station when we need to prioritise other passengers"?

Alnmouth to Alnwick - all those Harry Potter fans

That sounds a reasonable plan - an electrified Alnwick branch would be a good place to terminate Newcastle commuter services (rather than the nonsense of having to run DMUs to Morpeth because BR never got round to wiring up a short section of track there)

Stoke-on-Trent to Leek is jumping out at me in the list of proposals not mentioned so far.

That falls into the "commuter distance between a smaller town and the local big city, for everyday benefits" that I like - you don't have to dress it up with any distractions like "diversionary resilience" - it would be a good enough case without such hype.

 

[willgreen]

Carterton is a growth area so yes that could open it up and move it up market. Don’t reckon squaddies are rail users and I haven’t heard of rail to military bases being much of a thing.

There's still a bit of military rail freight usage, e.g. Bicester, and plenty of others who might get a few trains a year (military bases seem to receive long freight trains, but infrequently). And whilst squaddies may not use rail all that much, there's still a fair number of visitors to camps, alongside soldiers moving from base to base. Basically, passenger and freight traffic to/from military bases shouldn't be discounted.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless it's at exactly the same times as the BML, it doesn't matter.

It does if you live in Crowborough!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Is Stranraer to Loch Ryan Port/Cairnryan hiding in here somewhere ?

 

[yorksrob]

It does if you live in Crowborough!

Well, if they re-open through to Tunbridge Wells Central, there's always the option of Charing Cross !

 

[The Ham]

My vote would go to the central Devon route.

• It would link Tavistock, Okehampton and central Devon into the rail network
• It would provide greater resilience to the local network in case of works betweem Plymouth and Exeter

There's a debate as to how useful the second point is, however that doesn't mean that the route isn't without other benefits which are probably of greater importance.

Firstly, it's cheaper than building a DAL, which although does provide journey time improvements doesn't really provide much extra capacity to/from London due to constraints at the London end.

Conversely the line through Okehampton would create a direct service to Plymouth from the WofE Line, creating a shorter and quicker journey from a large area across Southern England, including Southampton, Portsmouth, Brighton, Weymouth.

By reducing the need for those passengers to travel via Reading/Westbury it would allow extra passengers to use the GWR services. Given that many of those passengers would be joining the WofE services as they are starting to see passengers get off at they travel out of London, that would mean that the cost of extra capacity would be fairly limited.

Whilst there's limited extra scope for extra capacity on the existing trains, it should be noted that following Crossrail 2 there's then extra paths out of Waterloo which then could be run along the WofE Line. Whilst an increase in frequency would require additional loops/redoubling of the line, that would likely be required without the extra Okehampton/Plymouth passengers anyway.

Whilst journey times from Waterloo would never compete on time, from Clapham Junction it would. Especially if there was a move to local services some of the note minor stations (could still have a direct London service every 2 hours, with each station being served by a different fast service, for instance on 2tph the 4 stations between Exeter Central and Honiton could have a direct service every 2 hours but still remove 3 stops from all the services as the between stations would be picked up by the local services run by GWR).

Not only would it improve longer distance travel options to Plymouth, but it would also improve travel between Exeter and Plymouth by providing a direct service between Exeter Central and Plymouth. Likewise is likely to improve commuting options into Exeter from existing stations before the line diverges to head to Okehampton as the existing timetable to Crediton is poor for commuting due to the times it arrives/leaves Exeter.

Whilst the business case which was done does show that it's fairly poor value for money it only looked at running local services and not at running longer distance services over it.

 

[DavidSM]

It's not a serious suggestion; I doubt it will ever happen. But a narrow gauge railway would stand a better chance than standard gauge as it would be cheaper to overcome the issues you rightly identify.

I will say that the line runs from I believe Northallerton to redmire as it stands at the moment. Steam runs from Bedale to Redmire- this being due to the fact that the line was used by the army to move small armoured vehicles by train. Beyond Redmire to Garsdale the track has been removed, bridges at varying points are missing. Also there just isn’t the passenger numbers to make it a financial go.
if you went to Hawes you would find that the town The main population centre in the upper part of the dale runs its own Community bus service To varying villages in the dale, alongside a community petrol station

 

[yorksrob]

There's a debate as to how useful the second point is, however that doesn't mean that the route isn't without other benefits which are probably of greater importance.

I agree with your other points.

On this one, I think that whilst that debate rages amongst those discussing new railway lines, on the network for routes such as the GW mainline via Taunton/SWML via Salisbury, ECML/Joint line via Lincoln etc, the benefit of diveraionary routes is well established.

 

[Ianno87]

I agree with your other points.

On this one, I think that whilst that debate rages amongst those discussing new railway lines, on the network for routes such as the GW mainline via Taunton/SWML via Salisbury, ECML/Joint line via Lincoln etc, the benefit of diveraionary routes is well established.

No, diversionary routes are used because they are there anyway for other reasons. They weren't built specifically to be diversionary routes.

 

[adamedwards]

Welwyn Garden City to Panshanger. Extend the 717s from Moorgate, but until then a Pacer shuttle. Possible halt at the Shire Park offices.

It was rural when built originally but now would serve a large and growing housing area. If it were still rural it probably wouldn't be viable.

 

[yorksrob]

No, diversionary routes are used because they are there anyway for other reasons. They weren't built specifically to be diversionary routes.

I never claimed that it was possible to build a route solely for diversions.

@The Ham stated that there was a debate as to how useful a central Devon route would be for resilience in the event of disruption.

My observation is that in my cited examples of such diversionary routes that exist, it is well established that they are very useful for resilience.

 

[Meerkat]

If coaches are quicker than the current route, how much quicker than the Okehampton route would they be!?!
you can’t build it instead of a Dawlish avoiding line. If the Dawlish line falls irrevocably into the sea then a new fast line would have to be built - a line randomly winding round Devon needing two reversals isn’t a long term solution.

 

[yorksrob]

If coaches are quicker than the current route, how much quicker than the Okehampton route would they be!?!
you can’t build it instead of a Dawlish avoiding line. If the Dawlish line falls irrevocably into the sea then a new fast line would have to be built - a line randomly winding round Devon needing two reversals isn’t a long term solution.

Well, it is a long term solution to resilience. If you did have to replace the Dawlish section altogether, the route between Exeter and Plymouth would still be subject to periodic disruption and maintenance works. It's also a long term solution to opening up central Devon, Tavistock and Okehampton to the rail network.

Having a single, winding branch line to plymouth isn't a long term solution.

 

[A0wen]

It was rural when built originally but now would serve a large and growing housing area. If it were still rural it probably wouldn't be viable.

To be fair it isn't viable now - WGC is about 50,000 - so Panshanger's at best 1/3rd of that. It's only a couple of miles at furthest to WGC station and there's a half-hourly bus service which covers the journey in about 10 mins. It's also been built over all the way from where the junction was to Ridgeway.

Have to admit I was surprised to see that one get suggested, made a change from the usual suspects that get posted on such threads.

Well, it is a long term solution to resilience. If you did have to replace the Dawlish section altogether, the route between Exeter and Plymouth would still be subject to periodic disruption and maintenance works. It's also a long term solution to opening up central Devon, Tavistock and Okehampton to the rail network.

Having a single, winding branch line to plymouth isn't a long term solution.

We've been here before.... several times.

If the problem to be answered is how do you provide resilience for Dawlish then the Tavistock / Okehampton line isn't the solution, however much you'd like to imagine it is. Tavistock and Okehampton between them have a population of less than 20,000.

Whereas a Dawlish avoiding line (DAL) would leave the current line somewhere between Exeter and Starmill and rejoin somewhere around Teignmouth. Teignmouth on its own has a population of 15,000 - that's before you factor in a DAL would also still allow Newton Abbott, Torquay, Paignton to be served. And chances are the DAL would actually improve journey times as anything being built to avoid Dawlish would logically be built as at least a 100mph line, possibly 125mph depending on the route - you'd *never* get close to those speeds on a reinstated Okehampton line.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Nobody seems to have mentioned Dumfries - Stranraer yet.

And the Waverley Route of course, with through trains from Stranraer to Edinburgh
There was a radio programme some years ago where Mr Beeching was 'tried' for his deeds. He was sentenced to be sent to Riccarton Junction to wait for the next train

If the Waverley Route were to be reopened, would it make sense to modify the alignment (curves, gradients? )

 

[Whistler40145]

Poulton-le-Fylde to Fleetwood

 

[Starmill]

Shirebrook - Ollerton.

Connects three settlements with a collective population of 25,000 to the Network. Area in need of regegeneration and ‘levelling up’. Also potential traffic to Center Parcs (at a push, with a shuttle bus link).
The track is there, in use, and in fairly good condition. A service to Nottingham could be provided without requiring extra capacity or facilities on the existing network.

So, relatively cheap, relatively easy, with relatively good benefits. If the case for this doesn’t fly, then no other new rural railway will.

Are you still allowed to have a 'speculative idea' that was part of the EMR franchise agreement to tender a study for and listed in the Department's RNEP summary?

 

[Harpers Tate]

Scarborough <> Whitby.
Partly (OK, mostly!) for nostaligic reasons. But
a) it provides (replaces) a southbound link to/from Whitby without having to displace the NYMR
b) these places are presently connected by a commercial bus service that runs 7 days a week all year round, with a summer frequency of 30 minutes (60 in winter) which is well enough loaded to be commercial. Which suggests a degree of latent demand.
c) ....with some basic form of integrated ticketing between the bus route and the Wolds Coast line (see "Yorkshire Coast Day Ranger") which also suggests latent demand for connections to the rest of the coast and/or Hull and beyond.

There are probably many other locations where similar re-openings would fill in a geographical/directional void; these are where I'd look.

 

[Meerkat]

Whereas a Dawlish avoiding line (DAL) would leave the current line somewhere between Exeter and Starmill and rejoin somewhere around Teignmouth.

Would it? I thought all the options missed out Teignmouth too? I assume it would make more sense to build a proper fast line from near Exeter to near Newton Abbott to really cut down times to Plymouth and Cornwall.

 

[willgreen]

If the Waverley Route were to be reopened, would it make sense to modify the alignment (curves, gradients? )

Yes, but the costs would be prohibitive (since the terrain is highly challenging). If built it would be as a basic railway to keep costs down (which, ironically, negates the point of providing a through service or as a diversionary route).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

And the Waverley Route of course, with through trains from Stranraer to Edinburgh
There was a radio programme some years ago where Mr Beeching was 'tried' for his deeds. He was sentenced to be sent to Riccarton Junction to wait for the next train

If the Waverley Route were to be reopened, would it make sense to modify the alignment (curves, gradients? )

No, as the route out to Tweedbank is slated for electrification, gradients aren't an issue. You'll burn through the wrong side of £100m just to find maybe 5 minutes between Tweedbank and Edinburgh through realignments, and given you'll find that through EMU performance gains anyway, justifying £100m on top of electrification is difficult.

 

[furnessvale]

If coaches are quicker than the current route, how much quicker than the Okehampton route would they be!?!
you can’t build it instead of a Dawlish avoiding line. If the Dawlish line falls irrevocably into the sea then a new fast line would have to be built - a line randomly winding round Devon needing two reversals isn’t a long term solution.

As a general note, and without commenting on the merits of any proposals, given the widespread use of MUs, a train reversal is nothing like the hassle it once was. If a train is booked to stop at a given station, with appropriate signalling and crewing there should be no (or virtually no) time penalty.

 

[A0wen]

Scarborough <> Whitby.
Partly (OK, mostly!) for nostaligic reasons. But
a) it provides (replaces) a southbound link to/from Whitby without having to displace the NYMR
b) these places are presently connected by a commercial bus service that runs 7 days a week all year round, with a summer frequency of 30 minutes (60 in winter) which is well enough loaded to be commercial. Which suggests a degree of latent demand.
c) ....with some basic form of integrated ticketing between the bus route and the Wolds Coast line (see "Yorkshire Coast Day Ranger") which also suggests latent demand for connections to the rest of the coast and/or Hull and beyond.

There are probably many other locations where similar re-openings would fill in a geographical/directional void; these are where I'd look.

However, to pick up point 'B' - a double decker bus can seat about 80 people - so similar to a 153 but half a 150. The bus is operated by one person - both Sprinters would need two, I suspect a modern double decker bus offers better fuel economy than a single car DMU and you don't have the overhead of track and signalling to maintain. The railway ran outside of the villages en-route which the bus can serve. Lastly, the bus attracts a good many people who don't have to pay to use it as they have their ENCTs pass......

 

[adrock1976]

If this is classed as a rural route, my suggestion would be Lichfield Trent Valley - Burton-upon-Trent.

The track still exists and combined with the reinstatement of Walsall - Lichfield City, this would provide better connections from Walsall. Sutton Coldfield, and Lichfield towards the East Midlands, Yorkshire, and the North East regions and avoiding the need to travel into Birmingham to travel back out again.

 

[quantinghome]

I will say that the line runs from I believe Northallerton to redmire as it stands at the moment. Steam runs from Bedale to Redmire- this being due to the fact that the line was used by the army to move small armoured vehicles by train. Beyond Redmire to Garsdale the track has been removed, bridges at varying points are missing. Also there just isn’t the passenger numbers to make it a financial go.
if you went to Hawes you would find that the town The main population centre in the upper part of the dale runs its own Community bus service To varying villages in the dale, alongside a community petrol station

Of course there aren't enough passengers. This isn't about public transport for the local community, it's purely about tourism - the Dales equivalent of the Ffestiniog or Welsh Highland Railway. Wensleydale railway have made no progress in extending beyond Redmire and there's zero potential for it to become part of the national network. But a narrow gauge tourist railway wending its way from Leyburn through Aysgarth and Hawes and maybe up to Garsdale might work. It would certainly reduce the cost of restoration and be as attractive to tourists as a standard gauge railway, perhaps more so.