Russia invades Ukraine

[Scotrail314209]

That's all they are - headlines. When you realise that you've not seen the heads of government for a while then start worrying.

Boris seems to be downplaying the threat which is encouraging.

However, I do think Truss needs to stop talking about weakening Russia… that won’t help at all

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's all they are - headlines. When you realise that you've not seen the heads of government for a while then start worrying.

Might be worth sticking to the Beeb, as they are fairly objective and aren't doing the doom-mongering that otherwise sells papers.

That said, Liz Truss needs, once again, to shut her face. It might be nice if we got Russia out of Ukraine entirely, but her shouting that is only going to make us the first target if WW III does break out properly.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I believe Putin is evil and mad enough to go ahead with such action. This doesn't bear thinking about. This is just unreal. We in Britain could only have weeks or even days left before we're all nuked and Britain becomes a wasteland. I for one am absolutely a bag of nerves tonight

Putin might be. Oligarchs and intelligence/military leaders aren't. There is absolutely no way that anyone with power and influence in Russia will consent to a first strike. It will ensure Russia is completely wiped off the map, they will lose their lives en masse, and no-one is going to agree to that for the sake of Ukraine.

The question is, what happens if Ukraine starts pushing the Russians back?

It's a huge question. Russia has a strong face culture, similar to Asia (Poles would tell you that they are Asians), and losing face might well be cause to remove him as leader. Ukraine appears to be happy to lose territory while continuing to inflict losses, probably because they now know from Irpin and other battles that the Russians are very vulnerable in advance positions.

IMO, Ukraine will go for bigger and bigger targets in Russia in the weeks to come. I think it's quite conceivable that fuel depots in regional capitals will start going mysteriously boom in the night.

 

[Scotrail314209]

That said, Liz Truss needs, once again, to shut her face. It might be nice if we got Russia out of Ukraine entirely, but her shouting that is only going to make us the first target if WW III does break out properly.

How odd, we both posted the same thing at the same time

 

[ainsworth74]

but her shouting that is only going to make us the first target if WW III does break out properly

Whilst this shouldn't be taken as a defence of Truss I would note that the UK has been near the top of the Russian and Soviet targeting lists since they got nuclear weapons. The idea that Truss might influence that with her statements is laughable. We've always been a top priority target and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

Doesn't mean she shouldn't engage brain before speaking. Or even better be replaced by someone competent.

On a wider point don't let the media headlines spook anyone. Brutal reality is that whilst we all liked to pretend the nuclear threat went away in 1991 it really didn't. We've been under threat of nuclear attack at varying levels of seriousness since the 50s. The change is just suddenly everyone has remembered nukes are a thing.

Putin blathering on about how impressive their missiles are is so much chaff. The Soviets had missiles that could have done the job, the new ones don't bring anything fundamentally different to the table. Equally this guff about interference is just that guff. He won't use nuclear weapons just because we sent supplies to Ukraine.

Don't let the media or Putin wind you into a frenzy.

 

[najaB]

Putin blathering on about how impressive their missiles are is so much chaff. The Soviets had missiles that could have done the job, the new ones don't bring anything fundamentally different to the table. Equally this guff about interference is just that guff. He won't use nuclear weapons just because we sent supplies to Ukraine.

Don't let the media or Putin wind you into a frenzy.

Indeed. MAD applies as much today as it did in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is an absolute nightmare. As well as the seemingly never ending atrocities that evil Putin is doing to Ukraine, he's now threatening to use nuclear weapons on Britain. There have been some seriously scary worrying headlines in the media today....

Russia war LIVE – Now Vladimir Putin’s evil henchmen threaten to nuke BRITAIN if we continue to help Ukraine

Vladimir Putin hints he'll use nukes with 'lightning fast' response if Russia threatened

Putin claims 'all objectives will be met' in Ukraine war - and warns of 'lightning fast' retaliation if countries interfere​

Russia-Ukraine latest news: Vladimir Putin threatens nuclear strikes if West intervenes​

'One Sarmat missile means minus one Great Britain': Russian journalist urges Putin to wipe out 'boorish' UK with Satan 2 nuke - after Vladimir claimed to have stopped 'Ukrainian plot to assassinate him'​

I believe Putin is evil and mad enough to go ahead with such action. This doesn't bear thinking about. This is just unreal. We in Britain could only have weeks or even days left before we're all nuked and Britain becomes a wasteland. I for one am absolutely a bag of nerves tonight

Don’t read that hogwash.

 

[Gloster]

Liz Truss seems to be more interested in positioning herself for a leadership election, where talking tough is something that is likely to be popular with the relevant sections of the Tory party. It is of no help to the country’s foreign policy, indeed it may be damaging to it, and it may also damage other countries. But it might get her elected as PM of the smoking ashes, so she would probably think it worthwhile.

 

[GusB]

I'm all for sending as much kit as we can over to Ukraine. The more dead and (even better) injured Russian soldiers go home the better. I hope these mysterious explosions inside Russia carry on and help to slow down their ability to resupply the front line.

While I understand what you're trying to say here, I don't think it's very helpful to say things like "the more dead Russians, the better" (to paraphrase). Some of them are no more than wee boys whose mammys will be every bit as upset as your own mother would be if it was you that was returned home in a body bag.

Is it right to be getting slightly worried? Especially if the war in Ukraine might reach a stalemate, which simply up the stakes for nuclear weapons being used?

I don't blame you for being worried. War is a worrying situation and I think the first time I really became acutely aware of it was when we first went in against Saddam Hussain. Having said that, the cold war was going on for a long time before I was born and, although the perceived threat of nuclear annihilation seemed to diminish when the Iron Curtain came down, it has never really gone away. It never will unless every nation in the world gives up their nuclear weapons; much as I'd love that, it ain't gonna happen!

Mad Vlad from Leningrad isn't the first bawheid on the world stage, and he certainly won't be the last.

 

[Scotrail314209]

While I understand what you're trying to say here, I don't think it's very helpful to say things like "the more dead Russians, the better" (to paraphrase). Some of them are no more than wee boys whose mammys will be every bit as upset as your own mother would be if it was you that was returned home in a body bag.

I don't blame you for being worried. War is a worrying situation and I think the first time I really became acutely aware of it was when we first went in against Saddam Hussain. Having said that, the cold war was going on for a long time before I was born and, although the perceived threat of nuclear annihilation seemed to diminish when the Iron Curtain came down, it has never really gone away. It never will unless every nation in the world gives up their nuclear weapons; much as I'd love that, it ain't gonna happen!

Mad Vlad from Leningrad isn't the first bawheid on the world stage, and he certainly won't be the last.

I totally agree with that first point. There's been a lot of Russian soldiers who didn't even know they were going to an active warzone and were distraught.

It's definitely worrying me because, the things in the Middle East have seemed so far away from home... but this just hits a tiny bit too close for me now.

I don't think he'll use the weapons, but there's the part of me that is currently scared for what the next few weeks may entail (particularly May 9th, Victory day!)

 

[Cdd89]

I don’t get the sense we are doing much carrot-dangling in the form of a partial removal of sanctions; that feels off the table, as the West is (rightly) morally outraged at Russia’s acts.

However, rolling back sanctions is the only way Putin can present any exit from conflict as a “win”. Otherwise, regardless of what has been gained militarily, it becomes clear that the outcome of the war was to make things much worse than before; and Putin is incentivised to continue conflict so as to never to realise that loss.

 

[GusB]

I totally agree with that first point. There's been a lot of Russian soldiers who didn't even know they were going to an active warzone and were distraught.

It's definitely worrying me because, the things in the Middle East have seemed so far away from home... but this just hits a tiny bit too close for me now.

I don't think he'll use the weapons, but there's the part of me that is currently scared for what the next few weeks may entail (particularly May 9th, Victory day!)

I really don't mean this to sound patronising in any way at all, but it is just another bloody war. You'd think after thousands of years of conflict that we humans would finally learn to try to get on with eachother a bit better, but somewhere in the world there will always be some kind of strife. Nobody wins, other than the shareholders of the various arms manufacturers, of course

 

[Scotrail314209]

I really don't mean this to sound patronising in any way at all, but it is just another bloody war. You'd think after thousands of years of conflict that we humans would finally learn to try to get on with eachother a bit better, but somewhere in the world there will always be some kind of strife. Nobody wins, other than the shareholders of the various arms manufacturers, of course

It's not patronising in the slightest, but extremely reasonable.

I think the main reason for my worry is that this is the first war that I've actually experienced as an adult. I was too young to remember Iraq, I don't remember Afghanistan or Syria.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For those of you old enough to remember "That was the week that was", in one programme they sang....

"God rest ye, merry gentlemen, lie safely in your bed,
The independent British bomb is flying overhead,
It's off to kill the Russians,
When the rest of us are dead,
Oh tidings of comfort and joy, comfort and joy,
Oh tidings of comfort and joy."

 

[yorksrob]

Might be worth sticking to the Beeb, as they are fairly objective and aren't doing the doom-mongering that otherwise sells papers.

That said, Liz Truss needs, once again, to shut her face. It might be nice if we got Russia out of Ukraine entirely, but her shouting that is only going to make us the first target if WW III does break out properly.

I agree it's a step too far to say "we must drive Russia out of the whole Ukraine" particularly as we're not sending forces there. That's entirely Ukraine's prerogative.

It would be more fitting simply to reiterate that we will provide the aid Ukraine needs to repel the invasion.

Whilst this shouldn't be taken as a defence of Truss I would note that the UK has been near the top of the Russian and Soviet targeting lists since they got nuclear weapons. The idea that Truss might influence that with her statements is laughable. We've always been a top priority target and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

Doesn't mean she shouldn't engage brain before speaking. Or even better be replaced by someone competent.

On a wider point don't let the media headlines spook anyone. Brutal reality is that whilst we all liked to pretend the nuclear threat went away in 1991 it really didn't. We've been under threat of nuclear attack at varying levels of seriousness since the 50s. The change is just suddenly everyone has remembered nukes are a thing.

Putin blathering on about how impressive their missiles are is so much chaff. The Soviets had missiles that could have done the job, the new ones don't bring anything fundamentally different to the table. Equally this guff about interference is just that guff. He won't use nuclear weapons just because we sent supplies to Ukraine.

Don't let the media or Putin wind you into a frenzy.

I'm inclined to agree. We've always been at the top of Russia's nuclear hit list in the event of the balloon going up. No change as far as I can see.

 

[ainsworth74]

For those of you old enough to remember "That was the week that was", in one programme they sang....

"God rest ye, merry gentlemen, lie safely in your bed,
The independent British bomb is flying overhead,
It's off to kill the Russians,
When the rest of us are dead,
Oh tidings of comfort and joy, comfort and joy,
Oh tidings of comfort and joy."

I was always partial to Tom Lehrer:

 

[Yew]

Unfortunately there isn't many "layers" of people involved if Putin wanted to launch a nuclear strike, essentially he has full control of his nuclear forces, alongside his General Staff.

The chain of command for potential Russian nuclear strikes

Russian President Vladimir Putin said at the weekend that his nation's nuclear forces should be put on high alert, raising fears that Russia's invasion of Ukraine could lead to nuclear escalation.

www.reuters.com

Indeed, it's concerning how much of the Russian miliriaty seems to fall under the auspices of his personal "Pretorian Guard". Fortunately they seem to hoover up all the money and good equipment that was meant for the "Danube Dneipr frontier", much as the Pretorians of Rome starved the defenders of the Rhine whilst they were fighting the goths.

This is an absolute nightmare. As well as the seemingly never ending atrocities that evil Putin is doing to Ukraine, he's now threatening to use nuclear weapons on Britain. There have been some seriously scary worrying headlines in the media today....

Russia war LIVE – Now Vladimir Putin’s evil henchmen threaten to nuke BRITAIN if we continue to help Ukraine

Vladimir Putin hints he'll use nukes with 'lightning fast' response if Russia threatened

Putin claims 'all objectives will be met' in Ukraine war - and warns of 'lightning fast' retaliation if countries interfere​

Russia-Ukraine latest news: Vladimir Putin threatens nuclear strikes if West intervenes​

'One Sarmat missile means minus one Great Britain': Russian journalist urges Putin to wipe out 'boorish' UK with Satan 2 nuke - after Vladimir claimed to have stopped 'Ukrainian plot to assassinate him'​

I believe Putin is evil and mad enough to go ahead with such action. This doesn't bear thinking about. This is just unreal. We in Britain could only have weeks or even days left before we're all nuked and Britain becomes a wasteland. I for one am absolutely a bag of nerves tonight

Note that the quotes are only around the "lightning fast" phrase. It is the newspaper falsely giving the impression of nuclear warfare. For the "Russian journalist", it's not so long ago that our papers were goading Theresa May into committing to preemptive strikes.

Indeed. MAD applies as much today as it did in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.

We have maintained a continuous at sea deterrent since 1969, today is no different.

 

[Loppylugs]

Mad Vlad from Leningrad

Love that !

 

[uglymonkey]

At some point, you need a Robert Kennedy and a "back channel" to give Putin a "honourable" way out of this without losing face.

Indeed, it's concerning how much of the Russian miliriaty seems to fall under the auspices of his personal "Pretorian Guard". Fortunately they seem to hoover up all the money and good equipment that was meant for the "Danube Dneipr frontier", much as the Pretorians of Rome starved the defenders of the Rhine whilst they were fighting the goths.

Note that the quotes are only around the "lightning fast" phrase. It is the newspaper falsely giving the impression of nuclear warfare. For the "Russian journalist", it's not so long ago that our papers were goading Theresa May into committing to preemptive strikes.


We have maintained a continuous at sea deterrent since 1969, today is no different.

4 minutes the radar station in Yorkshire gave us in the cold war ( can't spell it Flyingdales?) - less if its a launch from a SSBN launched in close. ( i Think the US has 20 -30 minutes warning)

 

[nw1]

Liz Truss seems to be more interested in positioning herself for a leadership election, where talking tough is something that is likely to be popular with the relevant sections of the Tory party. It is of no help to the country’s foreign policy, indeed it may be damaging to it, and it may also damage other countries. But it might get her elected as PM of the smoking ashes, so she would probably think it worthwhile.

It might make her popular with the party, but with the general public? Time the Tories moved on from these "Britannia Unchained" right-wingers. And we certainly need a more level-headed person as foreign secretary.

And as for the media scaring people, to my mind the large, corporate media need much more in the way of regulation - their cynical attempts to exploit vulnerable people's psychology are completely unacceptable.

But most of all of course we need someone to "do the job", so to speak, with Putin. If he goes I suspect the war will end and Russia will pull out, as the Russian leadership can blame it all on him.

 

[yorksrob]

I just hope that when the current crisis calms down, the restrictions against Russia are maintained.

The less we have to do with the country the better. No travel, no trade, no interaction except the minimum needed to maintain diplomatic contact.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just hope that when the current crisis calms down, the restrictions against Russia are maintained.

The less we have to do with the country the better. No travel, no trade, no interaction except the minimum needed to maintain diplomatic contact.

I don't see why people should not be able to travel to Russia if they so wish. We should not under any circumstances restrict where British people can travel; that is not the act of a free country. Russia may of course choose not to let us in.

I certainly see it as a reminder of something I have believed for a long time - we need to move away from imported fossil fuels to nuclear and renewable electricity generated wholly domestically and maintained only with domestic skillsets, alongside a full electrification of our transport system, both road and rail. Basically we need the CEGB* back. Not everything conceived in the 70s was bad.

* Central Electricity Generation Board, the nationalised monopoly on power generation in the UK prior to the 1990s.

 

[nw1]

I just hope that when the current crisis calms down, the restrictions against Russia are maintained.

The less we have to do with the country the better. No travel, no trade, no interaction except the minimum needed to maintain diplomatic contact.

But if the current crisis resolves in a way which results in Putin being removed from office, by whatever method, and withdrawal from Ukraine, we don't really want to have poor relations with Russia for the sake of it. Any more than Germany should have been considered "the enemy" after 1945.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Shall we wait and see what May 9th holds for Putin?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shall we wait and see what May 9th holds for Putin?

I'd be more concerned about what it might hold for Ukraine. Without much progress, I can see a tactical nuclear strike being carried out to force surrender. I doubt NATO would chuck anything back if such an attack wasn't on NATO territory, but it would be terrible for Ukraine and its people and would also encourage China to threaten the same against Taiwan if it "worked".

 

[yorksrob]

But if the current crisis resolves in a way which results in Putin being removed from office, by whatever method, and withdrawal from Ukraine, we don't really want to have poor relations with Russia for the sake of it. Any more than Germany should have been considered "the enemy" after 1945.

It depends. It would need more change than just Putin gone for me.

Germany changed a lot more after 1945 than just Hitler going.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It depends. It would need more change than just Putin gone for me.

Germany changed a lot more after 1945 than just Hitler going.

The cessation of the fulfilment of Nazi ideology, of which more and more has been revealed over the years, was the major change affecting Germany at the end of WWII.

 

[yorksrob]

The cessation of the fulfilment of Nazi ideology, of which more and more has been revealed over the years, was the major change affecting Germany at the end of WWII.

Indeed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When was the last time that strong action was taken by the 15-member United Nations Security Council under the terms of their writ?

 

[duncanp]

This is an absolute nightmare. As well as the seemingly never ending atrocities that evil Putin is doing to Ukraine, he's now threatening to use nuclear weapons on Britain. There have been some seriously scary worrying headlines in the media today....

Russia war LIVE – Now Vladimir Putin’s evil henchmen threaten to nuke BRITAIN if we continue to help Ukraine

Vladimir Putin hints he'll use nukes with 'lightning fast' response if Russia threatened

Putin claims 'all objectives will be met' in Ukraine war - and warns of 'lightning fast' retaliation if countries interfere​

Russia-Ukraine latest news: Vladimir Putin threatens nuclear strikes if West intervenes​

'One Sarmat missile means minus one Great Britain': Russian journalist urges Putin to wipe out 'boorish' UK with Satan 2 nuke - after Vladimir claimed to have stopped 'Ukrainian plot to assassinate him'​

I believe Putin is evil and mad enough to go ahead with such action. This doesn't bear thinking about. This is just unreal. We in Britain could only have weeks or even days left before we're all nuked and Britain becomes a wasteland. I for one am absolutely a bag of nerves tonight

A lot of this is willy waving by Putin, not only to the West, but also to those back in Russia who are already plotting a coup d'etat ready to take over from Putin if the war does not reach a speedy conclusion.

Putin knows that he will be removed from office if he fails in his objectives, and he is trying to make it appear as though he is is control of the situation when it is quite obvious he is not.

There were many plots on Hitler's life during the Second World War, and Putin knows he is in a similar position to Hitler.