Ryanair fiasco

[Darandio]

Can see this situation getting much, much worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41344653

Ryanair plans to make pilots change holidays

Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has said the firm is planning to make pilots delay a week's holiday as it wrestles with massive flight cancellations.

His comments came at the airline's annual general meeting in Dublin.

Ryanair is cancelling 40-50 flights every day for the next six weeks, after it admitted it had "messed up" the planning of pilot holidays.

Mr O'Leary said some pilots had been offered a 10,000-euro pay rise in exchange for helping out.

He told the AGM that the offer applied to pilots at London Stansted, Dublin, Frankfurt and Berlin airports.

This is on top of a cash bonus already offered to pilots, which has been given a frosty reception.

Ryanair had offered captains a one-off payment of £12,000 or 12,000 euros, and first officers £6,000 or 6,000 euros, but representatives said they wanted new contracts and better working conditions instead.

Mr O'Leary told the AGM that Ryanair was facing a "significant management failure".

He said pilots who had a four-week block of holidays coming up in the next few months because of rota changes would be told to take three weeks instead and have the other week in January.

He said the firm did not need pilots' agreement for the change.

Mr O'Leary said the cancellations had cost Ryanair about 25 million euros (£22m).

He accused unions of trying to give the company "a bloody nose" and said staff did not want union representation.

 

[atillathehunn]

Can see this situation getting much, much worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41344653

Oh dear. There was an article recently - possibly even someone posted it here - from the BBC that Norwegian had poached 100 pilots in the last few weeks with this nonsense carrying on.

For a company fighting hard to retain its solid position as one of the top airlines in Europe, they really shouldn't have let this situation get to this.

 

[WestCoast]

Although Norwegian seems to be stagnant or contracting if anything out of the short-haul market from the UK, so I am guessing most of these pilots are going from Ryanair to the long-haul 787 fleet which also offers them progression?

 

[gsnedders]

787-8 has no F, and I would think F would sell very well on this route.

While for BA the route is not well established, SEZ as a luxury holiday destination is well established. With year round tropical conditions, I don't imagine this being a tough sell.

Yeah, I know, that's why I concluded it was a 787-9.

My point was that the large gains are all in the upper classes (esp. F going from 0 to 8, IIRC), compared with relatively moderate gains in the back.

 

[gsnedders]

Although Norwegian seems to be stagnant or contracting if anything out of the short-haul market from the UK, so I am guessing most of these pilots are going from Ryanair to the long-haul 787 fleet which also offers them progression?

They're operationally separate companies, as far as I'm aware.

 

[atillathehunn]

Although Norwegian seems to be stagnant or contracting if anything out of the short-haul market from the UK, so I am guessing most of these pilots are going from Ryanair to the long-haul 787 fleet which also offers them progression?

I didn't actually find anywhere that they had necessarily been poaching English pilots and moving them to English bases. The centre of the pilot dispute at the moment appears to be Dublin, Stansted, Frankfurt, Berlin etc. Could well have taken them from their foreign bases. Or relocated them with a tidy package to help with the moving.

 

[FQTV]

There's a school of thought that says that Ryanair's initial route to growth was on the back of the surplus of shorthaul aircraft still slewing down the production lines in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

Ryanair took them at fire-sale prices, used them intensively with the lowest possible operating costs, and then sold them as the overall market expanded again and prices rose significantly.

Other carriers with ageing aircraft were willing to pay a premium for nearly-new frames without having to hang around on manufacturers' growing waiting lists.

Manufacturers have since ramped-up production and the nearly-new market has faded.

Latterly, Ryanair has grown during a period of industry surplus of flight crew.

That too is coming to an end.

 

[pemma]

I'm surprised there isn't already a thread on this.

It seems the below is Michael O'Leary's 'solution' to a pilot shortage, which he says has come about by a change in the annual leave calendar, while insiders say has come about due to Ryanair not caring about their pilots and many leaving to go to other airlines like Norwegian.

Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has said the firm plans to make some pilots delay a week's holiday as it wrestles with massive flight cancellations.
...
Mr O'Leary said the airline had "some goodies" to propose to pilots, but added: "If pilots misbehave, that will be the end of the goodies."

He dismissed talk of possible industrial action, including reported plans for a work-to-rule, saying: "There isn't a union."

He also accused unions of trying to give the company "a bloody nose" and said staff did not want union representation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41344653

I think the pilots will want to give him a bloody nose!

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder if part of the "screw up" is down to the ridiculous way they "employ" the pilots, contracting through two layers of companies?

 

[306024]

Flew Ryanair today. As someone said, you get what you pay for. To their credit the pilot and crew came across as nothing less than professional. Will be interesting to see if my next two flights are to the same standard.

However I won't be booking any more flights with them for the foreseeable. This whole shambles, and O'Leary's reaction to it, have made me consider other more expensive, but potentially more reliable alternatives in future.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder if part of the "screw up" is down to the ridiculous way they "employ" the pilots, contracting through two layers of companies?

And effectively zero hour contracts.

If only I hadn't already stopped using them, I'd stop using them.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I was planning a Ryanair flight in December, but rethinking it for now and I bet a lot of people are thinking the same. Not to mention that all of these details about dodgy practices and pilots working extended hours are going to have people worrying about the state of their pilots during their flight - are they tired, worried about money and jobs or focusing on flying the plane?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm surprised there isn't already a thread on this.

It seems the below is Michael O'Leary's 'solution' to a pilot shortage, which he says has come about by a change in the annual leave calendar, while insiders say has come about due to Ryanair not caring about their pilots and many leaving to go to other airlines like Norwegian.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41344653

I think the pilots will want to give him a bloody nose!

O'Leary is unsurprisingly spinning things. A large part of the crisis is actually down to somewhat sharp practices with pilots' flying time limits (permitted by the Irish aviation authority, but aggressively pursued by Ryanair and recently clamped down on by the European licensing authorities).

It's nothing to do with annual leave, more to do with exploiting a loophole in flying time regs (which are intended to improve safety) in order to maximise profit.

Interesting document on the subject published by the Irish Airline Pilots' association:

https://ialpa.net/ialpa-analysis-of-ryanair-pilot-numbers-crisis/

In explaining the ongoing significant level of flight cancellations, Ryanair have claimed that they arise because of the need to allocate leave to pilots in the 7 months from the old “calendar year” date of April Fools day, before transitioning to the normal date of January 1st. This seems a strange and unsustainable explanation as there is no EASA requirement related to leave in the FTL regulations. It is equally implausible as they had at least two seasons notice of the new regulations in which to put their house in order.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

My parents flew to Prague from Liverpool on Monday with Ryanair having booked just before the impact of these staffing issues came to light... cue all last weekend checking to see if the flight was still on- thankfully it was. The trip is for tests for medical treatment of a serious condition so not knowing if they were going to make it was a worry. They're due back today but I've yet to hear if there are any issues. My father will fly out again in a week's time and be staying for a month while receiving treatment and has vowed that he will NOT be using Ryanair for that trip.

 

[Robertj21a]

My parents flew to Prague from Liverpool on Monday with Ryanair having booked just before the impact of these staffing issues came to light... cue all last weekend checking to see if the flight was still on- thankfully it was. The trip is for tests for medical treatment of a serious condition so not knowing if they were going to make it was a worry. They're due back today but I've yet to hear if there are any issues. My father will fly out again in a week's time and be staying for a month while receiving treatment and has vowed that he will NOT be using Ryanair for that trip.

.
They are flying 98% of all departures and have listed all the cancellations on their website.

 

[Darandio]

.
They are flying 98% of all departures and have listed all the cancellations on their website.

That wouldn't have been the case for the trip out to Prague though. I'd even go so far as to say that without the pressure that was put on Ryanair, they wouldn't have published these cancellations and continued to just provide a late email warning.

For the record as well, I neither started this thread nor named it 'Ryanair Fiasco'. Seems posts were split off from the aviation thread and mine was placed at the top.

 

[Jetlagged]

I was planning a Ryanair flight in December, but rethinking it for now and I bet a lot of people are thinking the same. Not to mention that all of these details about dodgy practices and pilots working extended hours are going to have people worrying about the state of their pilots during their flight - are they tired, worried about money and jobs or focusing on flying the plane?

Likewise. We were planning to use them in November and December and again in February and March. For now at least, we've scrubbed our plans for December and will take a road trip instead. Two of the trips have gone to EZY the fourth is still in the planning stage. That's four return trips for 2 PAX they have lost.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

.
They are flying 98% of all departures and have listed all the cancellations on their website.

So you have a 1 in 50 chance that your flight might be arbitrarily cancelled at late notice with limited chance of getting a refund and certainly no hope of getting help to make alternative arrangements. Certainly not good if it is your return flight that is scotched. Lots of stories of people getting stuck abroad and having to pay for late flights back at their own expense.

Obviously all travel carries this risk and airlines are notoriously bad for helping out in these situations at the best of times, but knowing that these cancellations are pre-planned and due to administrative problems (of some sort or other) makes it far more irking than if it was a completely unpredictable and random problem, like a plane fault.

I have seen people on Twitter etc. blaming passengers for 'demanding' cheap fares, forcing the companies to cut wages and working standards to be able to offer these cheap flights, that has led to these problems. Thing is, it was Ryanair that led the way on the ultra-cheap fares - a few years ago people would never have imagined £10 flights, Ryanair were the pioneers in this market and created this demand, so if they have failed to manage crew wages and employment, it is their own fault entirely.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

.
They are flying 98% of all departures and have listed all the cancellations on their website.

My parents did indeed make it back as planned.

That wouldn't have been the case for the trip out to Prague though. I'd even go so far as to say that without the pressure that was put on Ryanair, they wouldn't have published these cancellations and continued to just provide a late email warning.

For the record as well, I neither started this thread nor named it 'Ryanair Fiasco'. Seems posts were split off from the aviation thread and mine was placed at the top.

On Monday I think they were cancelling around 1/3 of scheduled flights.

 

[AM9]

Latest is that most major travel insurers will not pay out for additional hotel costs etc. caused by flight changes or cancellations, so I can forsee a class action against Ryanair.
Never used them myself, nor would I except as a last resort to escape from an erupting volcano or similar emergency. Ryanair as a company seems to have a business ethic that appeals to the customer who only sees price as a criterion. These savings are rarely worth much in the big picture of a holiday's costs and certainly not worth the stress.
In times of poor service whether of Ryanair's own doing or general issues, customer service seems policy to be to bully anybody who complains or at best ignore them.
Basically, with Ryanair you get what you pay for (or less).

 

[Blindtraveler]

Iv never been their biggest fan, the only motivator really being price but the new baggage policy which penalises light travelers plus the ever more cumbersom faffle at airports and now this truly rubbish treatment of customers means after Oct25th's flight to London I shall not use them again!

 

[pemma]

So you have a 1 in 50 chance that your flight might be arbitrarily cancelled at late notice with limited chance of getting a refund and certainly no hope of getting help to make alternative arrangements. Certainly not good if it is your return flight that is scotched. Lots of stories of people getting stuck abroad and having to pay for late flights back at their own expense.

What should I do if I need an alternative flight?

If your flight's cancelled, you can choose between a refund or an alternative flight.

If you opt for the alternative flight, but find it's not suitable, contact Ryanair and ask for a better option – using an alternative airline if necessary.

EU flight delay law says passengers whose flights have been cancelled must be offered "re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity".

It does not define exactly what "earliest opportunity" means, but if you're inconvenienced and feel it is reasonable to ask for a more suitable alternative flight on a different airline, you should do so.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...r-agrees-to-put-passengers-on-other-airlines-

If you haven't booked directly with Ryanair e.g. if you've booked a flight + hotel package through Expedia then it's the company you've booked with which you need to contact to arrange an alternative. If you've booked a package with Expedia or similar and it's your outbound flight which is cancelled then you can request a full refund for everything booked with that company e.g. hotel stay, excursions, car hire etc. without needing to claim on your travel insurance.

 

[Robertj21a]

On Monday I think they were cancelling around 1/3 of scheduled flights.

??? - That's incredible - can you provide some evidence please ?

As far as I can tell, they weren't far off the 98% that they claimed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The CAA came out this week to make it clear that the expect Ryanair to fly people on other airlines, and that any comments to the contrary are different to what Ryanair's lawyers agreed with the CAA.

I know Ryanair sail close to the wind, but if the CAA are slapping you down you listen.

I suspect most people won't be aware of their rights under EU261 and Ryanair will make it very difficult to assert them. I hope they get cleaned out in court.

 

[pemma]

The CAA came out this week to make it clear that the expect Ryanair to fly people on other airlines, and that any comments to the contrary are different to what Ryanair's lawyers agreed with the CAA.

I know Ryanair sail close to the wind, but if the CAA are slapping you down you listen.

I suspect most people won't be aware of their rights under EU261 and Ryanair will make it very difficult to assert them. I hope they get cleaned out in court.

I recall the Italian courts took action against Ryanair following what they did in response to the volcanic ash cloud a few years ago.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Or rather what they didnt do????flymaybe wernt all that better, I had a booking with them at the time and took a bit of persuasion to get money back.

 

[Jetlagged]

If you book a flight and hotel in one transaction on the Ryanair website, does that make it a package? If so, presumably if Ryanair cancel the outbound flight causing you to lose the holiday, they have to refund both flight and hotel?

 

[jon0844]

If you book a flight and hotel in one transaction on the Ryanair website, does that make it a package? If so, presumably if Ryanair cancel the outbound flight causing you to lose the holiday, they have to refund both flight and hotel?

I've never done it but suspect they create separate orders?

 

[FQTV]

If you book a flight and hotel in one transaction on the Ryanair website, does that make it a package? If so, presumably if Ryanair cancel the outbound flight causing you to lose the holiday, they have to refund both flight and hotel?

If you book on the Ryanair Holidays website then it's legally a package.

If you add a hotel on the main Ryanair website, you have to accept the separate terms of the accommodation provider, and Ryanair does not consider it to be a package in law.

Unless the terms of the accommodation booking allowed for cancellation and refund, technically your only recourse in case of flight disruption would be to claim on your travel insurance.

Things could get complicated with that, if you are offered a reroute by Ryanair, but decide instead to take a refund of your flights. Insurers may consider that to be a 'disinclination to travel,' which is not covered by insurance.

 

[yorksrob]

Could this be Ryanair's "Ratners" moment, I wonder.