Ryanair on Rail

[yorksrob]

You are missing the point. Ask 100 people on the platform at Hull station if they would like cheaper tickets but they will have to pay for the add ons if they want them, most will go for the cheaper ticket option. The tickets will be cheaper than you currently pay today, not the same.

The thing is - they won't really be cheaper.

The cost will be pushed up to cover the additional services and passengers will be expected to pay for those additional services on top.

 

[JonathanH]

Coaches in the UK have started going down the route of compulsory reservation / additional charge for seat selection. It looks like a healthy earner as well.

On Megabus, half the seats are for specific reservations, and half general seating. When the general seating runs out, the remaining passengers have to pay for the specific reservation seats. It is fairly clear that passengers don't necessarily want to pay for reservations, but the outcome is they sit in a more crowded part of the coach.

That could translate fairly easily to the railway whereby some coaches would be set aside for compulsory reservations at extra cost, and passengers without only a counted place reservation didn't have access to those coaches.

Once the counted place reservations were used up, passengers would have to book in the coaches attracting an additional payment for a specific seat. Tickets would be valid only in the seat booked, with it being necessary to check in at that seat. Any walk on passengers would have to find room in the general seating, or stand in the general seating coaches. If they took a seat in the specific seating area that isn't reserved, an additional charge would be payable.

It would be terrible, but it shows how it could be done.

 

[gerryuk]

The thing is - they won't really be cheaper.

The cost will be pushed up to cover the additional services and passengers will be expected to pay for those additional services on top.

Perhaps i am missing something here? What additional services are you referring to?

 

[flitwickbeds]

The problem will come when there is disruption.

I have purchased a last minute ticket, at the station, and been forced to reserve a window seat as they're the only ones left. With me I have a large suitcase, bike and a dog. I've paid £193 under your example to go from Sheffield to Glasgow.

Someone else is booked on the same seat in the same carriage but for the train one hour later. They paid only £5 for their ticket as they have no luggage, no bike and no dog, and they booked under the January sale as soon as tickets were released.

At Carlisle, there is a problem with the train I'm on and we all get turfed off. The one an hour later has someone in "my" seat. They paid a fiver for their journey, I paid £200. What happens?

Next problem is luggage. The later train is full of luggage and there is no space left. What happens to my bike and suitcase?

I remember when reservations cost on top of the ticket price. Was there something that prompted everyone to drop charging for them?
I suspect a single retailer trying to add on charges like that would quickly find they lose much of their customer base to the competition.

Suspect it's because refunding the charge when issues meant the reservation became invalid was more costly/hassle/PR destroying than charging a nominal amount for the reservation in the first place.

Remember you are paying far less for your ticket with the Ryanair model than you are paying for the system we have today. If you want a window seat or even a guaranteed seat of your choice, then you have to pay extra. As for food on the train, to eliminate wastage, only the meals bought before hand are taken on the train.
You should also be able to purchase insurance beforehand to pay up, if the train is delayed or cancelled.


As for luggage, when you pay for your ticket and luggage on the internet you are sent luggage labels (same as the cruise industry) that you attach to your bag. Gateline staff can scan the labels with hand held devices to make sure they are genuine. The gates at stations will be updated to also scan your labels. Unless you have genuine labels on your luggage the gates will not open. You will then be directed to a machine to pay for your luggage but its going to cost you a lot more. Staff on board the train will also have updated hand held devices to scan tickets and luggage. If you have paid for your ticket but have not paid for your luggage online, the onboard host can automatically charge your account as they have your details.

So every station on the network must be staffed from first to last train with a full ticket barrier in operation? Including the stations which only have one or a handful of trains a day/week?

Would be better to do it on the train instead, but one Ryanair flight has about 250 passengers to about 5 cabin staff, maybe 5 flights a day. A Thameslink train has potentially 1000 passengers to zero members of staff, every 15 minutes.

Also, what's to stop me simply saying that I have no luggage when asked by the ticket inspector even though I've bought on one of those £40 bags and hidden it behind other people's bags?

Finally, airlines are point to point, so you check everyone once on departure, that's it. No one else gets on or off during the journey. Obviously not the case with trains. Are you somehow going to do a full ticket inspection between each stop on the line?

 

[The Ham]

The problem will come when there is disruption.

I have purchased a last minute ticket, at the station, and been forced to reserve a window seat as they're the only ones left. With me I have a large suitcase, bike and a dog. I've paid £193 under your example to go from Sheffield to Glasgow.

Someone else is booked on the same seat in the same carriage but for the train one hour later. They paid only £5 for their ticket as they have no luggage, no bike and no dog, and they booked under the January sale as soon as tickets were released.

At Carlisle, there is a problem with the train I'm on and we all get turfed off. The one an hour later has someone in "my" seat. They paid a fiver for their journey, I paid £200. What happens?

Next problem is luggage. The later train is full of luggage and there is no space left. What happens to my bike and suitcase?

Very simple answer, you're delayed by an hour, so you get your £193 back but still get to travel.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Very simple answer, you're delayed by an hour, so you get your £193 back but still get to travel.

How do I get to travel? In a crowded vestibule while trying to simultaneously hold my dog, large suitcase and bike?

 

[skyhigh]

Remember you are paying far less for your ticket with the Ryanair model than you are paying for the system we have today.

Using the figures in your initial post -

So you want to travel from Sheffield to Glasgow one way, as an example.

On the internet the ticket will cost you £45

I can already get an Advance for that price. If you're planning to charge for bags and seats then you'd have to price the fare much lower than current Advances.

I would also assume that, like the airlines, less luggage means less fuel required?

It would be absolutely unnoticeable for a train compared to an aircraft.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do I get to travel? In a crowded vestibule while trying to simultaneously hold my dog, large suitcase and bike?

How's that different to now?

 

[dk1]

The whole idea sounds absolutely horrendous. Give me the ‘clapped out system we have today’ anytime where I can just walk up and get on the train of my choice whenever I want to. Bliss.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps i am missing something here? What additional services are you referring to?

I'm not talking about passenger services, rather the extra leg room, luggage space, all the add ons.

The train fare might drop initially but once it starts going up again, it will be impossible to know whether you're still getting value for money as a passenger as opposed to an all in fare because there won't be an all in fare to compare with.

We'll likely und up paying as much as we would have anyway for the basic fare, plus paying a load more for add-ons.

It's actually similar to the suggestion that's sometimes made that season tickets become five days a week in return for a drop in price. Once you've given up that tangible benefit of the extra two days for the one off drop in price, it will be difficult to keep track of whether you're still getting a discount over what you would have been paying in the other scenario.

 

[class 9]

Not a chance - airports and aircraft are restricted and controlled spaces, you can’t possibly replicate that on trains with multiple stops. Why would anyone suddenly accept paying money for things that are optional/free now, like seat selection? The economics of the two industries are completely different.

Indeed, you arrive at Sheffield, as the 4 car Voyager rolls in, there's an almighty scrum to board, you're competing with the 100+ people going to the races at York, all with off peak flexible tickets, without reservations who one of which will be sat in your seat and won't budge.
This airline model would never work in reality.

 

[Turtle]

How do you enforce the reservations, window seats and luggage? You can hardly enforce reservations now.

That is the overwhelming, practical, argument against these proposals.

 

[bspahh]

The problem will come when there is disruption.

I have purchased a last minute ticket, at the station, and been forced to reserve a window seat as they're the only ones left. With me I have a large suitcase, bike and a dog. I've paid £193 under your example to go from Sheffield to Glasgow.

Someone else is booked on the same seat in the same carriage but for the train one hour later. They paid only £5 for their ticket as they have no luggage, no bike and no dog, and they booked under the January sale as soon as tickets were released.

At Carlisle, there is a problem with the train I'm on and we all get turfed off. The one an hour later has someone in "my" seat. They paid a fiver for their journey, I paid £200. What happens?

Seat Frog have bidding for cheap first class tickets just before departure. When there is disruption, you could have bids to get bumped from a busy train, to take a later service. It would help the train company to pay £20 to someone with a cheap ticket if it saves £££ for delay repay on an expensive ticket.

How do you enforce the reservations, window seats and luggage? You can hardly enforce reservations now.

For a "no frills" train service you could get people to validate their ticket at the seat. You might still have ID checks for a railcard, but it would show which people had a valid ticket. If a seat has been reserved, but there is a no show, then it can be released to someone else. Checking luggage would be a lot more difficult to automate.

Once you know who is sat in a seat, then you can sell targeted advertising to them on a seat back screen. They would know who you are, and where you are going. The advertising could be subtle or intrusive, depending on how much you have paid, and the moral compass of the train company.

 

[paul1609]

Like them or loath them, Ryanair has completely transformed air travel in Europe. People can travel to destinations as cheap as chips or pay for all the add-ons, it's the customer's choice.

So you want to travel from Sheffield to Glasgow one way, as an example.

On the internet the ticket will cost you £45, but you have to download the ticket to your phone, if you want to turn up to the station and buy it there, it will cost you £80.

If you want an aisle seat it will cost you £12, a window seat will cost you £18, or you can turn up and take any seat that has not been booked for free.

A small handbag that sits on your lap will cost you £5, a small suitcase that goes in the overhead holder will cost you £20 and a large suitcase will cost £40. You pay nothing more with no bags. A bicycle will cost you £30 and if you want to travel with a pet it will cost you £25 extra.

If you want to buy food and drinks, you have to purchase them on the internet, you will not be able to purchase them on the train, cuts out waste.

Internet is available on the train at a cost. All intercity trains will have screens at the back of seats, you can pay to watch films and gamble if you like, but at a cost.

The best and most reliable intercity stock will be retained, all other stock will be phased out at the end of their working life. Intercity will end up with only one stock of trains (bi modes), this will keep maintenance costs down.

Regional railways stock will also be brought down to just one stock of trains, again this will keep maintenance costs down.

Last year Ryanair carried 181.8 million passengers with a turnover of 10.78billion euros. The railways generated 7.72 billion in ticket sales from 1.3 billion customers.

Like I say, Ryanair has transformed air travel for millions, would their business model work on the railways or do we just keep going with the clapped out system we have today?

You would run from Sheffield Meadowhall handy for M1 parkway traffic and a fast flixbus connection to London to a new basic platform at Glasgow Polmadie handy for the M74, avoiding the costs and congestion and delays associated with city centre stations.

 

[gerryuk]

There seems to be a theme on here regarding luggage, i think some of you are missing the point.
Go to any airport in the UK or in Europe and check in for your flight, the queues can be horrendous. But look at the check in counters for Ryanair, there is hardly anybody there. The vast majority of customers with Ryanair do not check in. They bought their tickets on line, have chosen the cheapest option to fly without any luggage. Ryanair will send them their boarding pass online, they go straight to the gate without any luggage.
If the Ryanair model was used on the trains, hardly anybody will turn up at the station with any luggage.
This if introduced, would not be a new phenomenon, millions of Brits have travelled with Ryanair, they have become used to cheap air travel, they are more than happy to travel from the UK to European destinations without any luggage. The same would apply on the railways.

 

[stuu]

There seems to be a theme on here regarding luggage, i think some of you are missing the point.
Go to any airport in the UK or in Europe and check in for your flight, the queues can be horrendous. But look at the check in counters for Ryanair, there is hardly anybody there. The vast majority of customers with Ryanair do not check in. They bought their tickets on line, have chosen the cheapest option to fly without any luggage. Ryanair will send them their boarding pass online, they go straight to the gate without any luggage.
If the Ryanair model was used on the trains, hardly anybody will turn up at the station with any luggage.
This if introduced, would not be a new phenomenon, millions of Brits have travelled with Ryanair, they have become used to cheap air travel, they are more than happy to travel from the UK to European destinations without any luggage. The same would apply on the railways.

But they have gate staff to enforce the luggage restriction. You would need to gate every station and check everyone's "boarding card" to make sure that they gave the right luggage. Massive increase in costs right there.

Never going to happen

 

[JonathanH]

You would need to gate every station and check everyone's "boarding card" to make sure that they gave the right luggage. Massive increase in costs right there.

From a revenue perspective, proper, fit for purpose, gating at every station might be revenue generative, or met by the additional charges.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From a revenue perspective, proper, fit for purpose, gating at every station might be revenue generative, or met by the additional charges.

Unlikely to be by specific train though. While this model could be applied to long distance it wouldn't be likely to be to a local stopper which might use the same platform.

 

[gerryuk]

The problem will come when there is disruption.

I have purchased a last minute ticket, at the station, and been forced to reserve a window seat as they're the only ones left. With me I have a large suitcase, bike and a dog. I've paid £193 under your example to go from Sheffield to Glasgow.

Someone else is booked on the same seat in the same carriage but for the train one hour later. They paid only £5 for their ticket as they have no luggage, no bike and no dog, and they booked under the January sale as soon as tickets were released.

At Carlisle, there is a problem with the train I'm on and we all get turfed off. The one an hour later has someone in "my" seat. They paid a fiver for their journey, I paid £200. What happens?

Next problem is luggage. The later train is full of luggage and there is no space left. What happens to my bike and suitcase?

Right, the Ryanair model is in use and you have turned up to buy a last minute ticket with a bike, dog and suitcase. You do know that the you would have saved 60% on the ticket price if you purchased your ticket online, 6 months ago? It would have been 30% three months ago.
You will now have to pay the full fare for your ticket, your luggage, your bike and your dog. You do not have to pay for any seat, if there is a seat available you can sit there, if there are no seats available you can stand or sit on the floor. There is plenty of room for your bike and luggage because under the Ryanair model hardly anybody takes luggage with them anymore.
At Carlisle you get turfed off the train. If you had purchased insurance when buying your ticket either online or at the ticket office you can get a full refund. If it was a lineside problem, speak to Network Rail.
The next train turns up 1 hour later, nobody is sitting in your seat, you have not purchased a seat. All those on your train who have purchased insurance will get their money back. You can then get the next train if space is available (same as today), there will still be room for your luggage as unlike yourself, most people don't take luggage with them anymore.

 

[stuu]

From a revenue perspective, proper, fit for purpose, gating at every station might be revenue generative, or met by the additional charges.

True, but the need to check everyone's luggage allowance is going to need much more staffing than a standard set of gates. All the suggested changes will cost much more to police, trains are a very different environment to a point to point airline

 

[gerryuk]

But they have gate staff to enforce the luggage restriction. You would need to gate every station and check everyone's "boarding card" to make sure that they gave the right luggage. Massive increase in costs right there.

Never going to happen

When you purchase your ticket and luggage you will be sent luggage labels. You attach the labels to your bag, when you arrive at the station and go through the luggage gate, the gate will read the barcode on your luggage. A 1 will appear on a screen on the gate telling staff that you have purchased 1 bag. If you try to go through with 2 bags you will be directed to a machine or ticket office to purchase another ticket for your bag. When you get on the train your luggage must be placed in the luggage rack with the label clearly showing. When the inspector goes through the train he will have a hand held devise and can read the labels on all the luggage within seconds. Those boarding at staff less stations with unpaid luggage can pay on board.
But remember under the Ryanair model the vast majority of travellers will go for the cheaper option and travel without any luggage.

Indeed, you arrive at Sheffield, as the 4 car Voyager rolls in, there's an almighty scrum to board, you're competing with the 100+ people going to the races at York, all with off peak flexible tickets, without reservations who one of which will be sat in your seat and won't budge.
This airline model would never work in reality.

This seems to be a problem you will encounter today, not under the Ryanair system.
Under the Ryanair system there will not be off peak flexible tickets. Tickets from Sheffield to York and all other destinations will go on sale 6 -9 months before. When you go online to buy your ticket to York you will be shown all the available trains that day to York from Sheffield and you will also be shown how many seats are unsold and available to book. If any trains have all their seats sold you will still be able to purchase a ticket on that train but you will not get a seat, you can stand or sit on the floor, but that's your choice.

 

[superalbs]

Right, the Ryanair model is in use and you have turned up to buy a last minute ticket with a bike, dog and suitcase. You do know that the you would have saved 60% on the ticket price if you purchased your ticket online, 6 months ago? It would have been 30% three months ago.
You will now have to pay the full fare for your ticket, your luggage, your bike and your dog. You do not have to pay for any seat, if there is a seat available you can sit there, if there are no seats available you can stand or sit on the floor. There is plenty of room for your bike and luggage because under the Ryanair model hardly anybody takes luggage with them anymore.
At Carlisle you get turfed off the train. If you had purchased insurance when buying your ticket either online or at the ticket office you can get a full refund. If it was a lineside problem, speak to Network Rail.
The next train turns up 1 hour later, nobody is sitting in your seat, you have not purchased a seat. All those on your train who have purchased insurance will get their money back. You can then get the next train if space is available (same as today), there will still be room for your luggage as unlike yourself, most people don't take luggage with them anymore.

This seems like a dystopian hell. Why do you want to make UK rail travel even more miserable than it already is?

 

[stuu]

When you purchase your ticket and luggage you will be sent luggage labels. You attach the labels to your bag, when you arrive at the station and go through the luggage gate, the gate will read the barcode on your luggage. A 1 will appear on a screen on the gate telling staff that you have purchased 1 bag. If you try to go through with 2 bags you will be directed to a machine or ticket office to purchase another ticket for your bag. When you get on the train your luggage must be placed in the luggage rack with the label clearly showing. When the inspector goes through the train he will have a hand held devise and can read the labels on all the luggage within seconds. Those boarding at staff less stations with unpaid luggage can pay on board.
But remember under the Ryanair model the vast majority of travellers will go for the cheaper option and travel without any luggage.


This seems to be a problem you will encounter today, not under the Ryanair system.
Under the Ryanair system there will not be off peak flexible tickets. Tickets from Sheffield to York and all other destinations will go on sale 6 -9 months before. When you go online to buy your ticket to York you will be shown all the available trains that day to York from Sheffield and you will also be shown how many seats are unsold and available to book. If any trains have all their seats sold you will still be able to purchase a ticket on that train but you will not get a seat, you can stand or sit on the floor, but that's your choice.

Utter lunacy. I expect to see it in the next Tory manifesto

 

[Neptune]

This whole thing sounds like a sure fire way to get people onto coaches/planes/into their cars to make their journey more pleasant and less complicated. I certainly wouldn’t want a weekend in Glasgow wearing the same jockeys all weekend because I didn’t want to pay extra for luggage.

 

[A S Leib]

also, they would be running "London" to "Edinburgh" services that actually ran from Maidenhead to Dunbar

I wonder how many passengers from Newcastle use Grand Central as a cheap alternative to York (or from elsewhere in northern Tyne & Wear - if you're living on the green line and too far to reasonably walk to Newcastle station Sunderland station isn't particularly harder to get to than Newcastle).

 

[6Gman]

This seems like a dystopian hell. Why do you want to make UK rail travel even more miserable than it already is?

The Honourable Member sums up my view exactly!

This whole thing sounds like a sure fire way to get people onto coaches/planes/into their cars to make their journey more pleasant and less complicated. I certainly wouldn’t want a weekend in Glasgow wearing the same jockeys all weekend because I didn’t want to pay extra for luggage.

The only time I take large luggage on a train is when I'm going on holiday. For clothes, spare shoes etc. etc.

I'm puzzled by the idea that there are lots of people out there who take luggage for the fun of it and would stop doing so if it saved them some money.

 

[Neptune]

I'm puzzled by the idea that there are lots of people out there who take luggage for the fun of it and would stop doing so if it saved them some money.

Me too. We keep hearing about the ‘Ryanair System’ but whenever I’ve regularly travelled with Ryanair most people have luggage with them. What is being said here by the OP regarding people not taking luggage on Ryanair is not my experience at all.

 

[deltic]

The approach outlined by the OP would easily work for an open access operator that served a few stations and did not accept any other operator's tickets ie was not an Orcats raider. Unbundling airfares as the OP mentions has become increasingly common with payments required for a range of add-ons. There is no reason why a rail operator could not do the same and offer a wide range of seating types all at different fares.

 

[NoRoute]

Like I say, Ryanair has transformed air travel for millions, would their business model work on the railways or do we just keep going with the clapped out system we have today?

Key thing is whether the model is to introduce it into a competitive railway, where a 'BargainRail' service operates in addition to other regular services, similar to how Ryanair operates its services within a competitive market for flights. Or, whether you are proposing all rail travel moves to that model.

The former, as an additional low priced, service competing with the private car and coach travel, serving high demand routes seems quite realistic. The later, applying the same approach to all rail, seems impossible because rail travel encompasses a wide range of journeys, many short trips where the model is not suitable, difficulties applying the pricing model to commuters/season tickets, interaction with subsidy support and tolerance for variable pricing on essential/public service type routes.

 

[gingerheid]

It would be horrific, but also, the nature of rail and air are different and the way the idea is framed fails to take that into account. Every bit of air that is most similar to rail is the part of air travel that Ryanair doesn't get involved in (like Heathrow).

I would venture to suggest that in fact there already is a "Ryanair" of the type of surface transportation that is similar to air travel; Flixbus (and yes, with the right infrastructure in place there can be a tiny bit of FlixRail, but the right infrastructure is not in the UK).

For rail travel the limiting factor is that what is effectively part of the means of transport (the rails) is of fixed capacity (which isn't high in relation to potential demand), has high fixed costs particular to each potential route, is of mainly fixed direction, and although trains can be used for varying routes they are pretty inflexible in practice.

These things are significantly or mostly not the case in relation to air (and coach). It's not completely true that there is unlimited roadspace or airspace and that coaches and planes can go anywhere, but it's much more true. Where Ryanair can't serve Heathrow, or Flixbus can't serve the bus station in Aberdeen, reasonable alternatives are available. There's no option for Lumo to do Finsbury Park to Newcraighall as that still doesn't solve the capacity problem.

A plane can't go to all airports, and there isn't a viable plane that can serve every combination of airports, but a B737/A320 or a coach can go between pretty much most combinations of places that they might usefully be wanted to. Trains are much more fixed. In most cases (I'm aware someone will provide me with an example of a particular route that does the lot!) you can't have a train do a combination of different types of route across the week, from commuter to international bucket and spade.

Much of what Ryanair (and to an extent Flixbus) does is operating networks from things most equivalent to alternatives to the mainline terminals, where rail has none. A lot is also using spare air infrastructure capacity to create random routes that will create their own demand (like Glasgow to Carcossonne) for a summer and that they'll then move on from. There isn't really the room to do that with rail. I suspect we could probably find the capacity to run services around the fringes of rail's spare capacity like Ardrossan Harbour to Ayr, or twice weekly services from Grangemouth to some random freight terminal in England on the days certain freight paths are unused. I don't think they'd create the same demand!