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Ryanair on Rail

Bletchleyite

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I don't see any issue with Lumo doing any of this if they wanted. Indeed I'm surprised they don't, other than that they're a typical FirstGroup half job. It would certainly be better to be able to pay £20 to take a large suitcase on board than simply be refused as at present.

I don't think it would be good if LNER, XC, Avanti or GWR did it.
 
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PauloDavesi

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It would be a lot easier, more comfortable, more convinient and significantly cheaper just to drive, especially if more than one person was travelling.
 

PGAT

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It would be a lot easier, more comfortable, more convinient and significantly cheaper just to drive, especially if more than one person was travelling.
In isolation yes, but it would be a lot easier, cheaper and convenient to not be dependent on one
 

gerryuk

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The Honourable Member sums up my view exactly!


The only time I take large luggage on a train is when I'm going on holiday. For clothes, spare shoes etc. etc.

I'm puzzled by the idea that there are lots of people out there who take luggage for the fun of it and would stop doing so if it saved them some money.
So Mr and Mrs Joe Blogs and their 2 six year old boys go for a weeks sun in Gran Canaria . They fly with Ryanair from Manchester but have bought the cheapest option that includes no luggage. The 2 boys will only need a couple of t shirts and shorts for the weeks holiday, they ware them all in layers on the flight out. Mr and Mrs Blogs can put a couple of layers on when they fly out, when they arrive in Gran Canaria they pop into Primark and buy any extra they will need for the week. They can then pop into the supermarket and buy toiletries and the like. They have saved a fortune on paying for luggage.
Believe it or not but many people travel on holiday this way.
 

sprunt

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How's that different to now?

Now, you know that you're taking the risk and you haven't paid extra for a service you aren't receiving.

The approach outlined by the OP would easily work for an open access operator that served a few stations and did not accept any other operator's tickets ie was not an Orcats raider. Unbundling airfares as the OP mentions has become increasingly common with payments required for a range of add-ons. There is no reason why a rail operator could not do the same and offer a wide range of seating types all at different fares.
And yet none of the existing open access operators have implemented such a system, which probably tells us something.
 

gerryuk

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'Many' people don't, especially families. You're stretching credibility now.
There are plenty of web sites out there to help you with your packing when travelling with Ryanair.
 

Howardh

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In British Rail days r/e inter city, didn't being able to reserve a seat come with extra cost?
 

Mike Machin

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I would like to see all Inter-City services run on a commercial open access basis. Operators could bid for paths and as long as their chosen rolling stock met the necessary safety and performance parameters, they could offer whatever service they felt would maximise their return within the market.

The public would decide what type of service would predominate on particular routes through their choice of purchase. If for example four operators initially ran on a particular route, with say two offering a mid range service, one low-cost/no frills and one slightly posher, after a year or two the market would decide.

After a year or so the two mid-price operators may perhaps be squeezed and they amalgamate. The ’posh’ operator may find that a few of their services at particular times of day make good profits, but not others so they concentrate on a few peak time services. The mid-price business perhaps continues to not be hugely successful, and they sell-out to the low-cost operator.

After a few years, the market will have decided with their money, and we may end up with a couple of low-cost operators running 85% of the trains on the route, with the upmarket provider running a few ‘premium’ services at busy times.

The present dft contracted operations on most routes at the moment doesn’t allow for free competition, it stifles innovation and costs the taxpayer a fortune. It’s time to open up the inter-city market.
 

Bevan Price

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So Mr and Mrs Joe Blogs and their 2 six year old boys go for a weeks sun in Gran Canaria . They fly with Ryanair from Manchester but have bought the cheapest option that includes no luggage. The 2 boys will only need a couple of t shirts and shorts for the weeks holiday, they ware them all in layers on the flight out. Mr and Mrs Blogs can put a couple of layers on when they fly out, when they arrive in Gran Canaria they pop into Primark and buy any extra they will need for the week. They can then pop into the supermarket and buy toiletries and the like. They have saved a fortune on paying for luggage.
Believe it or not but many people travel on holiday this way.
And what about people on UK shopping trips. When they leave home, they don't know how much they might buy. After the shopping, they arrive at the station 5 minutes before departure time, carrying 2 or 3 bags of shopping. How do you cater for such situations ? Insufficient time to mess about trying to get on the internet and "register" your extra luggage.

Anything that makes rail travel more complicated and/or expensive will only benefit the car & fuel industries.
 

Wolfie

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Right, the Ryanair model is in use and you have turned up to buy a last minute ticket with a bike, dog and suitcase. You do know that the you would have saved 60% on the ticket price if you purchased your ticket online, 6 months ago? It would have been 30% three months ago.
You will now have to pay the full fare for your ticket, your luggage, your bike and your dog. You do not have to pay for any seat, if there is a seat available you can sit there, if there are no seats available you can stand or sit on the floor. There is plenty of room for your bike and luggage because under the Ryanair model hardly anybody takes luggage with them anymore.
At Carlisle you get turfed off the train. If you had purchased insurance when buying your ticket either online or at the ticket office you can get a full refund. If it was a lineside problem, speak to Network Rail.
The next train turns up 1 hour later, nobody is sitting in your seat, you have not purchased a seat. All those on your train who have purchased insurance will get their money back. You can then get the next train if space is available (same as today), there will still be room for your luggage as unlike yourself, most people don't take luggage with them anymore.
As a taxpayer l would violently object to any funding going to a system based on your utter nightmare proposals. Ryanair makes a profit so your new rail companies can too or go bust. Oh, do you propose that those new rail companies have the flexibility to withdraw from routes with virtually zero notice given as Ryanair can, too?

This seems like a dystopian hell. Why do you want to make UK rail travel even more miserable than it already is?
Spot on. Free market extremism and sod the consumer.
 

The Ham

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How do I get to travel? In a crowded vestibule while trying to simultaneously hold my dog, large suitcase and bike?

I did say it was a simplistic answer, the likelihood is that you'd be delayed until a later train.

Anything that makes rail travel more complicated and/or expensive will only benefit the car & fuel industries.

...and cause more road congestion, so actual be worse for those who currently drive.
 

NSE

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So Mr and Mrs Joe Blogs and their 2 six year old boys go for a weeks sun in Gran Canaria . They fly with Ryanair from Manchester but have bought the cheapest option that includes no luggage. The 2 boys will only need a couple of t shirts and shorts for the weeks holiday, they ware them all in layers on the flight out. Mr and Mrs Blogs can put a couple of layers on when they fly out, when they arrive in Gran Canaria they pop into Primark and buy any extra they will need for the week. They can then pop into the supermarket and buy toiletries and the like. They have saved a fortune on paying for luggage.
Believe it or not but many people travel on holiday this way.
Yeah not buying it. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen people chuck on an extra jumper to save weight on the case etc, but a family holiday does not behave like this in the majority of cases. For a week, I highly doubt anyone will wear seven pairs of pants in one go. Do they just throw them away? Or come home wearing the dirty ones again?

Airlines and railways can teach each other things for sure. But not this.
 

GusB

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So Mr and Mrs Joe Blogs and their 2 six year old boys go for a weeks sun in Gran Canaria . They fly with Ryanair from Manchester but have bought the cheapest option that includes no luggage. The 2 boys will only need a couple of t shirts and shorts for the weeks holiday, they ware them all in layers on the flight out. Mr and Mrs Blogs can put a couple of layers on when they fly out, when they arrive in Gran Canaria they pop into Primark and buy any extra they will need for the week. They can then pop into the supermarket and buy toiletries and the like. They have saved a fortune on paying for luggage.
Believe it or not but many people travel on holiday this way.
Seriously?!

This isn't going to work when a family go on holiday and get stuck somewhere along the line with a de-wirement (or any other incident that stops the job for a few hours); it's bad enough that people are stranded on trains on hot days, but when they're wearing multiple layers of clothing? It's a disaster waiting to happen!

I think you need to go back to the drawing board! :)
 

flitwickbeds

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How's that different to now?
As someone else says above, now there is no expectation of never having to do this. If I'm paying the same price (or more) again for these services over tge base ticket price, I expect to get them regardless of any issue en route or a set swap from 8 car to 4 car. If I've paid, I expect to do the whole journey without having to think about my luggage or having to stand up. A system of refunding me afterwards is not good enough - I've specifically and deliberately paid for my 4 large bags to be transported in a luggage rack while I sit in my specifically chosen seat.

Haven't even mentioned short forming. What if there is no disruption per se, but the train rocks up with half the nunber of carriages as advertised - who decides, and how, which passengers now have to stand and who gets their allocated seat and luggage space?

Seat Frog have bidding for cheap first class tickets just before departure. When there is disruption, you could have bids to get bumped from a busy train, to take a later service. It would help the train company to pay £20 to someone with a cheap ticket if it saves £££ for delay repay on an expensive ticket.
And what happens if not enough people volunteer for this? In Ryanair world, it would be illegal for them to transport someone standing up so if they don't get enough volunteers they need to choose people to do it anyway. Don't know what system they use to choose those people (Last to check in? Last to arrive at the gate? Those who paid the least for their ticket?). How would the railway decide which passengers are least important? Or would they just make more people stand?

When you purchase your ticket and luggage you will be sent luggage labels. You attach the labels to your bag, when you arrive at the station and go through the luggage gate, the gate will read the barcode on your luggage. A 1 will appear on a screen on the gate telling staff that you have purchased 1 bag. If you try to go through with 2 bags you will be directed to a machine or ticket office to purchase another ticket for your bag. When you get on the train your luggage must be placed in the luggage rack with the label clearly showing. When the inspector goes through the train he will have a hand held devise and can read the labels on all the luggage within seconds. Those boarding at staff less stations with unpaid luggage can pay on board.
So you're now saying that not only does every station now need a gatrline, and not only that every gateline needs a member if staff, but EVERY GATE needs a member of staff? So at London Bridge station, all of the gates would have a member of staff confirming that everyone is coming through with the correct nunber of bags? Any idea how that would work at peak times? At somewhere like Manchester Piccsdilly or London Liverpool Street, the queues would stretch for miles!
 

Topological

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I am assuming here that we are talking about limited stop services which can somehow use a dedicated platform that is otherwise barriered off. It would be at the platform barrier, not the station barrier, that the inspection takes place.

I could see you could do this on a hypothetical Euston - Crewe - Preston - Edinburgh service which uses 12 at Crewe and then "7" at Preston and runs via the sub into an East facing bay (actually it can arrive at any platform, but would need to depart from a dedicated East facing bay)

Crewe and Preston allow connections from Manchester and Liverpool going North/South so should be sufficient.

The journey time will be slower than the ECML, not least because there are pathing issues to build in accessing the platforms at Crewe and Preston, but if cost is really the driver then that is ok.

My knowledge of the South West is limited, but neither Bristol Temple Meads or Bristol Parkway offer an obvious platform to barrier off. Likewise in the West Midlands the main stations do not. Whether there is a route that could pick up a "CrossCountry" offering to complement the proposed London to Edinburgh im not sure.

Stick the basic fares at £10 full route and £5 half route and you may just have a model. All checks would need to be on platform though and the stock would haev to run as booked or not at all (avoiding the reservations not aligning with the seats).

One point on stock is that seats should rotate. China does this so seats are always in the facing direction. People wanting to sit as a group can spin a row provided they have the whole row. No tables, but this is a cheap option. If absolutely necessary a carriage with just tables could be specified, that would be like the old MK2 that used to run on CrossCountry/Virgin
 

deltic

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And yet none of the existing open access operators have implemented such a system, which probably tells us something.
Because to a greater or lesser extent they are orcat raids ie they accept walk up fares. Rail charter services that did not would have more flexibility and I think some do have differential prices for different seating arrangements.
 

The Ham

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IF this were to ever happen, like the low cost airlines, the company operating this could only ever be a small number of companies offering to travel people.

The other thing it would probably wish to look to do would be (in a post HS2 world) look to run a service from near London to near Manchester for a price which meant that it was the same price as the normal walk up ticket prices once you'd allowed for a TfL ticket to central London and a tram trip to Manchester.
 

bspahh

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And what happens if not enough people volunteer for this? In Ryanair world, it would be illegal for them to transport someone standing up so if they don't get enough volunteers they need to choose people to do it anyway. Don't know what system they use to choose those people (Last to check in? Last to arrive at the gate? Those who paid the least for their ticket?). How would the railway decide which passengers are least important? Or would they just make more people stand?
The fallback position if people didn't volunteer would be the status quo. People would stand, and get paid £££ for delay repay, when there are people with a seat who would have been happy to be delayed for £. Its not a flight. Its a train. The railway can "decide" in the way that it decides which passengers get a cheap advance fare.
 

dorsetdesiro

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Stagecoach once ran "Megatrain" through South West Trains - not sure if they also did that on East Midlands Trains?

If Stagecoach were still in the UK rail market, they may still be running Megatrain inside its TOCs or even launch an open access service under the Megatrain brand somewhere, probably on the ECML against Lumo & Grand Central
 

Thirteen

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No doubt someone will suggest the rolling stock for this RyanRail service should be Pacers!
 

AY1975

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Like them or loath them, Ryanair has completely transformed air travel in Europe. People can travel to destinations as cheap as chips or pay for all the add-ons, it's the customer's choice.

So you want to travel from Sheffield to Glasgow one way, as an example.

On the internet the ticket will cost you £45, but you have to download the ticket to your phone, if you want to turn up to the station and buy it there, it will cost you £80.

If you want an aisle seat it will cost you £12, a window seat will cost you £18, or you can turn up and take any seat that has not been booked for free.

A small handbag that sits on your lap will cost you £5, a small suitcase that goes in the overhead holder will cost you £20 and a large suitcase will cost £40. You pay nothing more with no bags. A bicycle will cost you £30 and if you want to travel with a pet it will cost you £25 extra.
And if you're wearing a coat or jacket that you want to take off during the journey, it will cost you £5 to hold it on your lap, £10 to hang it on the coat hook alongside your seat or put it on the overhead rack, or £20 (or even the price of another ticket) to put it on an unoccupied seat alongside or opposite you. Keeping it on or not having one with you (or hiding it in your bag if it's small and light enough to do so without exceeding the luggage weight limit) will cost you nothing.

And don't forget the £1 or £2 to use the toilet!
 

gerryuk

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Ok, another example.
Ryanair have been given a open access licence to run 3 trains a day from London Euston to Glasgow and back, calling only at Manchester Piccadilly both ways. Paths have been found, so no issues there.
Tickets will go on sale 6 months ahead.
A single ticket from Euston to Manchester will cost £20 and £25 to Glasgow. Manchester to Glasgow will cost £15. Prices will rise accordingly nearer the date of departure.
A surcharge of £8 per ticket will be payable if you purchase the ticket at the station, including machines. No surcharge if bought online with Ryanair.
There are 300 seats on the train and you have the option to purchase the seat of your choice, if available. Prices for seats will range from £8 to £12 depending on the seat. No more than 300 people can catch this train, no standing. If you don't purchase a seat you will be assigned whatever seat is left the day before you travel, via email.
You can take a small bag that can fit under the chair in front of you or on your lap for free. A small suitcase will cost you £15, a large suitcase £30.
A bike will cost £18 and a pet will cost £15. If you purchase suitcase / bike you will be sent labels to attach to your items the day before travel.
Your items will be scanned by staff as you enter the platform at Euston, same at Piccadilly. No scanning needed when the train arrives in Glasgow. Scanning will take place at Glasgow and Piccadilly on the return journey but not at Euston.
You can purchase tea / coffee on the train but no meals. You can only purchase meals online to save waste.
There will be no delay repay with this service, you will have the option online, to purchase insurance.
Internet will be available at a cost and 2 carriages on this train will have tv screens at the back of each chair, you can pay to watch films and gamble , at a cost.
Does this sound better?
 

Topological

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Ok, another example.
Ryanair have been given a open access licence to run 3 trains a day from London Euston to Glasgow and back, calling only at Manchester Piccadilly both ways. Paths have been found, so no issues there.
Tickets will go on sale 6 months ahead.
A single ticket from Euston to Manchester will cost £20 and £25 to Glasgow. Manchester to Glasgow will cost £15. Prices will rise accordingly nearer the date of departure.
A surcharge of £8 per ticket will be payable if you purchase the ticket at the station, including machines. No surcharge if bought online with Ryanair.
There are 300 seats on the train and you have the option to purchase the seat of your choice, if available. Prices for seats will range from £8 to £12 depending on the seat. No more than 300 people can catch this train, no standing. If you don't purchase a seat you will be assigned whatever seat is left the day before you travel, via email.
You can take a small bag that can fit under the chair in front of you or on your lap for free. A small suitcase will cost you £15, a large suitcase £30.
A bike will cost £18 and a pet will cost £15. If you purchase suitcase / bike you will be sent labels to attach to your items the day before travel.
Your items will be scanned by staff as you enter the platform at Euston, same at Piccadilly. No scanning needed when the train arrives in Glasgow. Scanning will take place at Glasgow and Piccadilly on the return journey but not at Euston.
You can purchase tea / coffee on the train but no meals. You can only purchase meals online to save waste.
There will be no delay repay with this service, you will have the option online, to purchase insurance.
Internet will be available at a cost and 2 carriages on this train will have tv screens at the back of each chair, you can pay to watch films and gamble , at a cost.
Does this sound better?
Better, but neglects the important point I made earlier. Platforms need to have barriers to separate from normal services. That does somewhat limit the stations that can be used for such a service.

As noted Euston - Crewe (p12) - Preston (p7) - Edinburgh can work for this purpose (though needs Platform 3 (I think) at Edinburgh as it can have barriers and only has 1 face)

In my service I am assuming passengers can use the ample connections at Crewe or Preston for Manchester and Liverpool.
 

Tetchytyke

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Go to any airport in the UK or in Europe and check in for your flight, the queues can be horrendous. But look at the check in counters for Ryanair, there is hardly anybody there. The vast majority of customers with Ryanair do not check in. They bought their tickets on line, have chosen the cheapest option to fly without any luggage. Ryanair will send them their boarding pass online, they go straight to the gate without any luggage.
I fly regularly through Manchester T3 and I can categorically tell you for a fact that this is completely untrue.

The thing is - they won't really be cheaper.

The cost will be pushed up to cover the additional services and passengers will be expected to pay for those additional services on top.
That's already the reality in the airline industry.

The headline fare is cheaper if you take a small cabin bag and you're happy to play middle seat roulette. But most people need to take more with them than that, and once you start adding any sort of luggage then prices rapidly ramp up to the same- or even higher- than that charged by the 'full service' airlines.

My experience is that, once you add a bag, EasyJet are usually no cheaper than Loganair. I can have a weekend away with a small cabin bag- providing I'm not intending to go shopping- but anything more than that and I need a bigger bag. What's even more interesting is the pricing on EasyJet. On quite a few flights recently the 15kg hold luggage option has been cheaper than the large cabin bag.

On Aer Lingus, meanwhile, you can only take a large cabin bag on board if you pay a fee, otherwise it goes in the hold for free.

People only started taking cabin bags because of the hold fees, and the airlines have now realised that the cabin bags are the bags that cause delays at the gate. So now they're trying to price everyone back into checking bags into the hold.
 

gerryuk

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I fly regularly through Manchester T3 and I can categorically tell you for a fact that this is completely untrue.
Not in my experience
The headline fare is cheaper if you take a small cabin bag and you're happy to play middle seat roulette. But most people need to take more with them than that, and once you start adding any sort of luggage then prices rapidly ramp up to the same- or even higher- than that charged by the 'full service' airlines.

My experience is that, once you add a bag, EasyJet are usually no cheaper than Loganair. I can have a weekend away with a small cabin bag- providing I'm not intending to go shopping- but anything more than that and I need a bigger bag. What's even more interesting is the pricing on EasyJet. On quite a few flights recently the 15kg hold luggage option has been cheaper than the large cabin bag.

On Aer Lingus, meanwhile, you can only take a large cabin bag on board if you pay a fee, otherwise it goes in the hold for free.

People only started taking cabin bags because of the hold fees, and the airlines have now realised that the cabin bags are the bags that cause delays at the gate. So now they're trying to price everyone back into checking bags into the hold.
If the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair did not exist today, how much do you think a ticket with the likes of Loganair, British Airways and Iberia would cost today? We would go back to the days when most people could not afford the price of tickets. Air travel would return to be a luxury for those who could afford it. Ryanair, Easyjet and others have totally transformed air travel so most people can now afford to travel overseas.
Innovation and competition has done wonders for the air industry, why is innovation and competition such dirty words in the rail industry?
 

Tetchytyke

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If the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair did not exist today, how much do you think a ticket with the likes of Loganair, British Airways and Iberia would cost today?
About what they cost now.

Innovation and competition has done wonders for the air industry
Has it? "Innovation" within the air industry led to routine overbooking and the routine cancellation of flights at short notice. Things were so bad the EU had to legislate with directive EU261 to force the airlines to behave themselves.
 

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