Birmingham
Member
The problem with Saturdays on the railway is the passengers! 
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Saturdays on the railway in general
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RailUK Forums
Yeah you have to be careful to plan your Saturdays around the football, particularly up north. A big rugby game in London today also saw huge demand from northern services into London.
The problem is you've still got a pre-pandemic demand and a post-pandemic service.
afc75
Member
Yeah. Hence i'm in a hotel in Wolverhampton. Again, that's hardly a sign of a great rail service
I’ve never seen a Saturday today in London as busy as it has been ever before. Central London has been packed, people everywhere. I spent some time in the West End, which was absolutely manic; one LU station I went to had people queueing to get out of the station because the streets were so busy!
There were also a lot of major events in London today; several football matches at the same time, as well as other events.
There were also a lot of major events in London today; several football matches at the same time, as well as other events.
The LNWR trains in and out of Euston today were horrific, crush loaded to the max.
I absolutely agree. Absolutely packed, no sign of a recessionfrom what I could see!
I went to Euston around 18:00 to see off a friend who was travelling to Milton Keynes. The tube station was exit only, unsure why and I couldn't see anything about it on TfL's website. The concourse was packed, never seen it as full except when there's major disruption and the job becomes stopped.
My friend was aiming to get the 18:38 LNR Crewe service which runs non-stop to Milton Keynes. The departure board didn't show the MKC call although RTT and NRE live departure board both showed the call. I suspect LNR removed the MKC call to try and spread the load as this train would've been extremely busy with Avanti's issues today. My friend didn't want to risk it so we headed for the 18:14 Northampton service. To say it was full was an understatement (trust me I've seen some wedged trains over the years). My friend just managed to squeeze on to the train about 10 minutes before departure, there are announcements saying that the train was full and that passengers should return to the concourse and take the next service.
As I walked across the concourse to head to Kings Cross for my train home the platform for the 18:38 was announced. It wasn't a scrum, it was a stampede. The way people were pushing and shoving to get to the train was quite dangerous. Kings Cross was also very busy due to the tail end of disruption as a result of a person being hit by a train. I anaged to get a seat in the front carriage of a Peterborough train that was making an additional call at Stevenage but further back was standing room only.
Euston seems to be a particular problem on Saturdays. LNR doesn't have a regular clockface timetable like on Thameslink out of St Pancras. The service is unreliable and the towns along the route have seen massive numbers of new houses in the last few years meaning more people want to travel. Add in some events in London and it's not difficult to see the problem.
For those that say HS2 should be cancelled remember that the long distance trains to places like Glasgow, Manchester and Liverpool will use HS2. This means more trains can use the existing lines out of Euston to operate more services to places like Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Nuneaton etc. Based on wehat I've seen recently this is urgently needed.
SussexSeagull
Member
I don't know what area you work in or what football team(s) were involved but I have been to a couple of hundred away trips from the south coast to Newcastle and that isn't something I recognise. From my experience football fans tend to drink a bit too much and either get too loud or fall asleep on trains.
Seemingly the railways can now pick and choose their customers.
I give football fans as an example but their are 1,001 other reasons people use the trains on a Saturday and if I am not getting on a train anymore because they can't be trusted to get you there and back other people will be drawing the same conclusion.
This really should be a matter of concern for the industry.
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SWR have tried this by charging a premium for Saturday morning travel and having a similar band out of London in the afternoon. However, it depends on the timing of the event as to whether that approach works.
It will be interesting to see whether there is a double digit percentage rise in off-peak fares at the next review. While a lower increase was announced, it would be possible to increase regulated fares at that level and off-peak fares (where these are not regulated) by more, and the budget issues are greater now.
On the other hand there are routes where these high loadings will not be happening.
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About this time, Kings Cross station had closed due to overcrowding, so this was probably why you saw Euston so busy, with customers going there from Kings Cross.
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
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What time did the RL international match at the Arsenal (Emirates) stadium finish yesterday and Tottenham v Leeds (football)? They wouldn't have helped matters, even if only a small proportion of spectators for either event were actually travelling by train.
Behaviour aside, the problem with football fans/big sporting events at the weekend is the railway just can't accommodate them (London aside which has the capacity).
The capacity can barely cope with a normal passenger flow. Add hordes more and it can't cope. Especially when Saturday engineering works are thrown in the mix on the busiest travel day.
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Wasn’t the football match.
Spurs-Leeds finished just before 5. Rugby around the same time. The LNWR/Avanti services were heaving in the morning with fans going to the rugby. Rugby league a northern sport so not really sure why the semi was in London, the final next week at Old Trafford. There would have been a lot of Leeds fans heading back to Kings Cross by 6pm and a lot of Spurs fans back to Euston/Kings Cross for the Home Counties trains. Same with the England fans back from the rugby to go back north.
The problem at Kings Cross was the incident around Peterborough in the afternoon which caused hours of delays. The issue at Euston was the same overcrowding from services all morning for their return journeys.
Midlands and North West, basically - so we tend to get hit from all angles with the number of high profile teams in the area. There's nothing like standing on the platform at somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly or Sheffield watching rival fans banging on train windows and throwing bottles. Not helped by a lack of trains meaning people get wedged in like sardines into a can.
As it happens my race goers later on were far more pleasant than usual as I crammed 250 people into a 2 carriage 156 - they took it very well and there was no vomiting, peeing in doorways or fighting.
Personally I'm not picky and that's why I still get stuck in - I relieved my slightly surprised punters where I was physically able to check tickets of nearly £500. As it happens yesterday my trains were very busy with mostly happy if slightly boisterous types and there was no problem.
Others who are less chilled and confident hate it and won't subject themselves to it. We had 2 guards walk off the job in the end yesterday and several more trains heavily delayed due to overcrowding and disorder.
It is very stressful for all concerned, passengers and staff alike.
Light fittings being smashed, graffiti, vomit, bottles strewn everywhere and toilets blocked is one post football match story I recall from talking to people in another local depot. Then there was the girl that came to my window to tell me some guys had been throwing glass bottles at her after a night out in a large city. Changing ends on night shunts to have to walk past a pile of vomit several times, oh and another colleague telling me how someone had pee’d up against the cab door, leaking into the cab. All of these incidents happened at weekends, making me less inclined to work a late shift.
This unfortunately seems to have become, maybe not common, but regular at Euston Underground, ever since the "HS2 alterations" started, involving going out of the station and in again.
The galling thing about all these masses of messed-about passengers is they have all bought tickets and given the railway revenue, yet what they have bought is then not provided. If train crews are not there, then they are not being paid. Trains themselves are commonly nowadays on mileage-run leases, and often maintenance as well. Track access charges are by the mile run, so no operation means no payments, compared to budget. One has to ask where is the passengers' money going.
Nicholas Lewis
On Moderation
The only way you will fix this is for transport staff from all industries to be employed on terms that ensure they are available to run the service specified whatever the day of the week or time with minimal use of RDW or overtime. The rostering also needs to reflect in the modern world that workers need to be given a reasonable level of free weekends as well as holiday periods. This will require a basic rate that reflects both the unsocial hours and days of the week as well as an increased level of resource provision. So it will cost more, let alone the time to recruit and train, and their in lies the problem of DfT ever agreeing to this although when the TOCs had control of the budget they clearly were prepared to work with unions and sling money at the problem to keep the service running as it drove their revenue bottom line.
So what sort of railway does the DfT want one that moves people off the roads or one that covers its costs. If its the latter they might as well just jack up ticket prices to suppress demand and minimise the negative travelling experiences being reported above.
So what sort of railway does the DfT want one that moves people off the roads or one that covers its costs. If its the latter they might as well just jack up ticket prices to suppress demand and minimise the negative travelling experiences being reported above.
Kings Cross St Pancras tube station ended up closed due to overcrowding with trains not stopping. This was just after notice that Kings Cross Mainline services would recommence was published.
Passengers then alighted at Euston tube station instead which got backed up - the exit queues reached down to the platforms so station closed until the crowd was disposed of. I think I was on the last Victoria line train which stopped before the closure.
Nicholas Lewis
On Moderation
BTP employs 4800 staff at a cost of nearly £420m pa how many are front line staff im not sure but ask majority of traveller and they would feel a lot more confident travelling at these times if there was more presence. At London terminals you often seen plenty of officers and support officers floating about often in big groups but rarely do i see them on the trains. Some TOCs did have their own security staff years ago but no doubt thats been culled to save money and when it comes to revenue protection its pretty non existent over my side of Surrey albeit you need to get through barriers at big stations but out in the country the yuths know which ones are gateless and times when barriers are just left open so on a DOO train it asking of lot for drivers to get involved if their is an issue.
MisterSheeps
Member
I am not convinced Saturday is any worse than any other day, reliability wise. Friday, I did a circular tour of Cumbria (Round Robin Ranger). 12:06 from Barrow (BIF) cancelled north of Harrington (why?!), then an RHTT (DRS, 3J11?) failed near Maryport, so the hour later from Whitehaven (BIF 13:16) sat for 2 hours at Harrington. Then it was cancelled from Workington, so got the next running (BIF 15:44 ), eventually arrived Carlisle 3h 35 late. Similar reliability problems happened last time I did this, on a July Wednesday. And, no, not just Northern, 2 TPEs south from Carlisle were cancelled. The Avantis were working.
I think it is a combination of over ambitious timetable, insufficient investment, bad personnel relations, and over sweating assets.
I think it is a combination of over ambitious timetable, insufficient investment, bad personnel relations, and over sweating assets.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, I'll happily work my rostered weekend shifts (2/3), I have no issue with having fans of any sport being on my train. If anything I enjoy the craic with sports fans, stag and hen parties etc.
The question was why do staff not want to work on a Saturday and I am giving a reason for it. Like it or not, the behaviour seen on trains on the weekend by such people happens. Every weekend. And I would also add that the group mentality of football fans in particular causes extra issues including ticketless travel on my old and current lines (WBA/Wolves) as they know it's simply impossible for checks to be made between them boarding and leaving. So I would argue that a lot of the troublemakers are not even customers of the railway!
There is likely to be a slightly higher risk of cancellations on Saturday's for staffing reasons purely down to Saturday's being almost exclusively booked to the max in term of leave (certainly at my depot) with other days rarely so. This stretches availability as spares become utilised and nobody willing to work a rest day. Add in any sickness and it will tip service levels ove the edge.
Obviously that's not universal, it just shows how it can unravel quickly on some days rather than others
ChrisDY10
Member
My own personal experience of reporting serious anti social behaviour issues to BTP is that they really just aren't bothered. Most of the 4800 staff are probably cowering in their offices somewhere....
Assuming HS2 gets built at least as far as Birmingham, how is Euston tube station going to cope with the increase in the number of passengers.
I went from Birmingham to London on Friday and returned on Saturday (early morning).
I used Chiltern to and from Moor Street, not because I particularly wanted to, but because Avanti are so spectacularly useless at the moment.
Many will change to the Elizabeth Line at Old Oak Common.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Or they know even if they arrest someone for anti social behaviour the punishment dished out in court will be meaningless, so they don't bother.
It's also a pretty major nuisance for the BTP to make an arrest, as they have few if any custody suites (I have a vague idea there may be one in London somewhere?) and so any prisoners need to be detained at a local force facility somewhere. Huge amounts of paperwork & red tape, so they really are loathed to do it.
cactustwirly
Established Member
GWR have been struggling for a while now.
The 9 car 800s are regularly full and standing standing, including west of Reading.
Paddington today was extremely busy, and I'm sat here on a crammed 800, I aimed for a train to Oxford hoping it would be quieter. The Weston and Plymouth services had a very large scrum after the platforms were announced.
GWR really do need to reinstate the Bristol superfasts on weekends to relieve the pressure
Birmingham
Member
Those will be chocka with Oxford tourists off-peak and on weekends.
That is not happening.
Only in the peak flow direction. They can be practically empty going in the opposite direction.
cactustwirly
Established Member
But it's bad, not just a few busy trains. It's consistently packed throughout the morning and early afternoon heading into London, and the same in the reverse direction in the evenings
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