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Scotrail’s alcohol ban - pointless?

williamn

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I’m currently on the train from Edinburgh to Aberdeen. It’s busy with football fans who are having a drink or two. Despite the booze ban the staff have said nothing.

Yet when I’ve been enjoying a quiet drink on a train on my own I’ve been advised to get rid of it.

Obviously it depends on individual staff but I can well imagine it’s easier to tell someone having a quiet drink to stop than a whole train of football fans.

Which makes the policy a bit pointless in my view!
 
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NorthOxonian

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There were rumours that Scotrail was going to remove the alcohol ban.
They do seem to have carried out a consultation of some sort - this story was from December:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67648715
ScotRail is asking customers if they support ending the blanket ban on drinking alcohol on its services, amid a claim it is "unworkable".

The online survey comes more than three years after it was introduced as a temporary measure to help stop the spread of Covid-19.

The future of the ban is a decision for ministers, rather than ScotRail.

The government is currently asking rail bosses, the police and unions whether they think the restrictions should end.

Rail users logging into ScotRail Wi-FI spots are being invited to take part a pop-up online survey, which begins with the statement: "In November 2020 ScotRail introduced a 24/7 ban to help support public health measures put in place by the Scottish government to help tackle coronavirus.

"This was presented and reported as a temporary measure.

"We are now looking to re-evaluate this prohibition and we are seeking our passengers views and opinions on this matter."

Customers are then asked to answer yes or no to the question: "Would you be supportive of ScotRail removing the permanent alcohol ban on trains and in stations?"

A second question asks: "If the current total alcohol ban remained in place, would this impact on your decision to travel with ScotRail for leisure journeys in the future?"

Respondents are asked to answer if they would be less or more inclined to get on a ScotRail train in that situation, or whether it would not affect them either way.

'Unworkable' ban
ScotRail is run by a Scottish government-owned company after being taken into public ownership in 2022.

ScotRail did not make anyone available for interview to discuss its position on the alcohol ban, but the operator did say that it regularly asked customers for their views on a variety of issues to help inform future decisions.

The first minister has been urged to lift the current restrictions by Conservative transport spokesman Douglas Lumsden, who said in parliament last month: "ScotRail and British Transport Police have both told me the ban is unworkable."

Humza Yousaf said at the time ScotRail, the British Transport Police, union leaders and others had been asked for their views and would give "appropriate consideration" to lifting the ban if the evidence pointed in that direction.

He added: "We will give particular weight to the voices of women and girls, who are often those who tell us that they can feel unsafe when it comes to antisocial behaviour."

The current ban prohibits the consumption of alcohol at any Scottish station or ScotRail train at any time of the day.

Passengers are also banned from carrying visible alcohol and can be stopped from getting on a train if deemed "unfit".

Drinking alcohol was previously banned on ScotRail services between 21:00 and 10:00.

In general it does seem an odd policy - there are certainly some areas where such a rule may be sensible (Glasgow is a very similar city to Liverpool and Newcastle - and both of the latter ban alcohol on their urban networks whether that be Merseyrail or the Metro). But it looks rather draconian for an intercity service such as Edinburgh to Aberdeen or a rural service like the West Highland Line.
 

38Cto15E

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williamn What makes it laughable is that there is a train an hour behind you where drinking alcohol is allowed. :)
 

dk1

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They do seem to have carried out a consultation of some sort - this story was from December:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67648715


In general it does seem an odd policy - there are certainly some areas where such a rule may be sensible (Glasgow is a very similar city to Liverpool and Newcastle - and both of the latter ban alcohol on their urban networks whether that be Merseyrail or the Metro). But it looks rather draconian for an intercity service such as Edinburgh to Aberdeen or a rural service like the West Highland Line.

Yes it does. So nice to have a few drinks on a longer journey & also takes away some of the onboard catering income.

I’d smuggle it in a reusable coffee mug just like Linda in Eastenders anyway lol.
 

43066

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I’m currently on the train from Edinburgh to Aberdeen. It’s busy with football fans who are having a drink or two. Despite the booze ban the staff have said nothing.

Yet when I’ve been enjoying a quiet drink on a train on my own I’ve been advised to get rid of it.

Obviously it depends on individual staff but I can well imagine it’s easier to tell someone having a quiet drink to stop than a whole train of football fans.

Which makes the policy a bit pointless in my view!

It is pointless; it’s an ineffectual example of nanny state-ism. See also the TfL alcohol ban.
 

Sealink

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I’m currently on the train from Edinburgh to Aberdeen. It’s busy with football fans who are having a drink or two. Despite the booze ban the staff have said nothing.

Yet when I’ve been enjoying a quiet drink on a train on my own I’ve been advised to get rid of it.

Obviously it depends on individual staff but I can well imagine it’s easier to tell someone having a quiet drink to stop than a whole train of football fans.

Which makes the policy a bit pointless in my view!

I've been told the 2129 Inverness to Tain is full of revellers drinking, and nothing is enforced.

A few years ago the ban was after 9pm (I think) and I was told to quickly drink my wine or it would be taken away. This was on the last train to Wick, which was virtually empty at 9pm.
Meanwhile you have LNER, Caledonian Sleeper, Avanti happily serving alcohol in Scotland, and I presume TPE too!
 

Davester50

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They do seem to have carried out a consultation of some sort - this story was from December:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67648715
What a way to run a consultation using a Wi-Fi pop-up...
I guess they can say they actually consulted, despite how tenuous, unlike the actual ban, which was never.

It's a pointless ban now, and only there because of direct political interference.
 

Buzby

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The ban requires BTP participation to stop it - but are rarely seen except to (a) prove they exist at higher profile public events and (b) is quite far from their Cowcaddens HQ to make any difference.

Since the ban makes it easier to catch over imbibers, removing it may make the process an impossibility and no doubt it’s the problem drinkers who make it worse for all travellers - which is probably why there’s not much support for abandoning it.
 

43066

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Since the ban makes it easier to catch over imbibers, removing it may make the process an impossibility and no doubt it’s the problem drinkers who make it worse for all travellers - which is probably why there’s not much support for abandoning it.

Not strictly true, because people can get as leathered as they wish before travelling, or can simply flout the ban on board with little realistic prospect of sanction. The ban is merely theoretical if there’s nobody to enforce it, and there almost invariably isn’t.

which is probably why there’s not much support for abandoning it.

Isn’t there? I’d be interested to see the stats to back that up. For that matter, I’d be interested to see the stats showing there was support for implementing it in the first place.

The fact they’re consulting on removing it suggests they’ve realised it’s unenforceable, widely ignored, and therefore politically embarrassing.
 
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This is a ban that inconveniences law abiding people who wouldn't have caused a disturbance anyway and it s ignored by everyone else.

I suppose it is easier to prosecute someone for possession of alcohol, you either have it or you don't - rather than 'disturbing the peace' or whatever, that is harder to prove.

The last time that I was on a train from Dundee to Glasgow, the woman in the seat opposite me opened her beer bottle (crown cap) with her teeth.
 

mikeg

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I've always thought the way the railways enforce alcohol bans is ridiculous in the first place. No drinking alcohol on problematic services - that I'm fine with.
No bringing alcohol at all - ridiculous.
No bringing alcohol at all on any service - utterly bonkers.
 

Mugby

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Scotland seems to take the bull in a china shop approach to the consumption of alcohol and ends up looking ridiculous;

Minimum price per unit of alcohol just increased from 50p to 65p.
Alcohol banned on all train services.
3am curfew for all bars and clubs in Scotland.

Wonder what they'll try next? Prohibition? All Scotch Whisky to be consumed outside Scotland?
 

CaptainHaddock

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Scotland seems to take the bull in a china shop approach to the consumption of alcohol and ends up looking ridiculous;

Minimum price per unit of alcohol just increased from 50p to 65p.
Alcohol banned on all train services.
3am curfew for all bars and clubs in Scotland.

Wonder what they'll try next? Prohibition? All Scotch Whisky to be consumed outside Scotland?
If I were a businessman I'd be planning on opening a chain of off licences in Berwick, Gretna and Carlisle!
 

yorkie

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If I were a businessman I'd be planning on opening a chain of off licences in Berwick, Gretna and Carlisle!
I understand the supermarkets are already well stocked for the purchase of alcoholic beverages

I’m currently on the train from Edinburgh to Aberdeen. It’s busy with football fans who are having a drink or two. Despite the booze ban the staff have said nothing.

Yet when I’ve been enjoying a quiet drink on a train on my own I’ve been advised to get rid of it.

Obviously it depends on individual staff but I can well imagine it’s easier to tell someone having a quiet drink to stop than a whole train of football fans.

Which makes the policy a bit pointless in my view!
The purpose is to prevent people like you or me from having a quiet drink, while to turn a 'blind eye' to large groups drinking and being loud; I believe this is for political reasons, introduced by a party that is hopefully going to take a beating at the next election.

The SNP has been urged to stop penalising ordinary commuters and lift the ban on drinking alcohol on trains. ScotRail has launched a consultation and is asking customers if they support ending the outlawing of booze when travelling on its services....

It is pointless; it’s an ineffectual example of nanny state-ism. See also the TfL alcohol ban.
Whether people agree or disagree with it, the TfL one is much more understandable, as the vast majority of journeys are short-hops and the trains aren't really designed for the consumption of food and drink while travelling.

In contrast, a journey on Scotrail could take most of the day, and no other operator of longer distance services in the UK has such a policy.
 
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Tractor2018

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a journey on Scotrail could take most of the day,
Could it? Almost. What's the likelihood of it? Next to zero.

Showing a lack of knowledge or a willful disregard to fact.

Scotrail's core work involves typical stopping patterns of several minutes on inter urban routes.

These services are often affected by undesirables, ruining the days of passengers and staff alike. And often under the influence.

No group is different from another whilst under the influence. I often hear how rugby demographics are different in behaviour from football demographics. Codswallop.

Was it Wilde (I may be misremembering) who said a pig in a suit is still a pig.

Anybody under influence, anybody, should not be on a train. And gate/platform/btp are equally to blame. Nobody under the influence should be allowed on railway property, nevermind a train. But they get let through, and train crew need to deal with the dysfunctionals.
 

farci

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The purpose is to prevent people like you or me from having a quiet drink, while to turn a 'blind eye' to large groups drinking and being loud; I believe this is for political reasons, introduced by a party that is hopefully going to take a beating at the next election.
Interested to hear this opinion from someone who lives in Yorkshire and I assume will have no democratic right to vote for or against an SNP candidate for MP.
 

43066

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Whether people agree or disagree with it, the TfL one is much more understandable, as the vast majority of journeys are short-hops and the trains aren't really designed for the consumption of food and drink while travelling.

I’d agree with that (albeit the London ban isn’t enforced, and there are a few anomalous results: eg you can’t consume alcohol on Crossrail from Reading to London, but you can in the Thameslink core between Farringdon and London Bridge etc. Personally I’d be in favour of retaining the ban on buses and trams only).

As you say Scotrail are a complete outlier in terms of longer distance services.

Interested to hear this opinion from someone who lives in Yorkshire and I assume will have no democratic right to vote for or against an SNP candidate for MP.

Equally interesting to hear this comment from someone who lives in Spain! I think you’ll find that people who don’t live in Scotland are still allowed to have opinions on these matters especially when, as UK taxpayers, we help fund ScotGov.

Anybody under influence, anybody, should not be on a train. And gate/platform/btp are equally to blame. Nobody under the influence should be allowed on railway property, nevermind a train. But they get let through, and train crew need to deal with the dysfunctionals.

But the people who cause traincrew issues will often simply ignore the ban, or will already be tanked up before joining the train, while those who just want to have a civilised drink will be penalised.

Much more rigorously enforced “dry trains” targeting major events, certain football matches etc, are surely much more proportionate and effective than blanket bans. This is the approach taken by most other TOCs.
 
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Blindtraveler

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As @yorky says, there are some journeys on the scottrill network, various lines two and from the Highlands, journeys to the far west like strandra or south west like Dumfries which take large chunks of the day. Some of these roots feature onboard catering which would no doubt make a tiny profit for nationalised Scott rail by the sale of a couple of quiet beers or glasses of wine or maybe the even the odd dram of the good stuff to passengers for who the train journey is either a necessity for work or family or an experience as part of a holiday, on some of the journeys mentioned in particular the road alternative is much faster be it behind the wheel of a car or in a coach seat and the train has to provide some kind of unique selling point to attract passengers onto it. Furthermore the rules are such that they have absolutely no way of stopping you boarding your Glasgow to Oban train at Queen Street with a takeaway hot meal but you can't have something other than tea or coffee or soft drinks to wash it down with, utterly ludicrous



And finally as a former resident of Scotland I would also like to see the SNP kicked firmly in to the long grass at the earliest possible opportunity, the damage said party has caused to so many aspects of life including the division division and hatred that their petty obsession with independence and anti-englishness sparks is one of the 20 or so reasons that I swapped north west Edinburgh for the Medway towns a year ago
 

jagardner1984

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Speaking as someone born in England who made Scotland my home 20 years ago, it is interesting to see the views on Scottish politics communicated via those who have been informed on it via a London centric media (mainly with a significant political slant of their own) rather than those who live here. Certainly “Scottish issues”, and it is of course the role of politicians to raise the concerns of citizens in the place which they live (which one could argue has provided the final catalyst for change in Belfast in recent days), have been of significant prominence in UK politics in the recent decade or so, and it is interesting that people feel more comfortable with it being run once more (as it was for decades) as a quieter subsidiary of a London run party. The phrase “back in your box” springs to mind.

Anyway, all this is some way from the topic of Alcohol on Scottish trains. Largely I’d agree on it being unenforceable, with the problem being multi level. BTP have been cut to the point they essentially don’t exist in any meaningful way. Policing of stations is, putting it politely, rather non visible. Station staff feel unsafe when met with a large group of intoxicated passengers, so “turn a blind eye”, knowing they’ll receive no support when they seek it. On board staff are left wondering how said groups ever got near a platform, and they are also likely to “turn a blind eye”. The result is the passenger is often left in incredibly unpleasant, dangerous situation, with Football being a particular catalyst for antisocial alcohol related behaviour.

Whilst I’m sure all forum users are most responsible drinkers, the fact remains Scotland has a particular problem with alcohol, with a dramatically higher figure for Alcohol related deaths than the rest of the UK, and it is difficult to express a policy which allows RailUK Drinker 001 and their partner to enjoy a nice glass of wine on the 1713 from Kyle of Lochalsh, whilst stopping the discarded bottles of Buckfast (for those unfamiliar, a tonic wine specifically popular in the West of Scotland and frequently associated with crime) piling up on the football trains in the central belt.

The most significant point however is the point made above by the now First Minister Humza Yousaf that future consultation should refer particularly to the views of women and girls. Those are not groups I fall into, but I must be honest, I am personally scared and discouraged from using subway and rail services at times based on the football games that are happening and the vast levels of antisocial behaviour which go with them. I actively take other means of transport / walk / take the car at specific points of the day as a result. The PIS displays on the subway specifically warn people of when the football crowds will be on - and I’ve seen more than a handful of other passengers either roll their eyes at such information, or make a note in their phone in response, presumably a reminder to take similar avoiding action.

I’ll never forget a journey I took a few years back with a woman and her young child, strangers to me, but who happened to board a subway train at the same place and get off at the same place as me, and were unsuspecting passengers on a football train. We boarded an entirely empty train, and on it in the city centre were then intentionally crush loaded hundreds of, and I use this term loosely, men, who were in various states of being able to stand up. Through the remainder of our journey they shouted, screamed and punched the inside of the train, drinking a variety of alcohol whilst rhythmically hitting any object they could whilst singing a song about how they would (insert reference to the most extreme sexual violence) Nicola Sturgeon. Amongst other references to the Pope and other similar sectarian chants which are sadly all too familiar to people in this part of the country. There were a number of young children, with them, also in football shirts, witnessing all this. The woman and her child looked entirely frozen, as indeed was I. At our stop we managed to fight our way out to get to the platform, and made our way out in stunned silence.

Finally at the top of the escalators she spoke softly …. “Disgusting, isn’t it ?”

So by all means, come up with a plan that is enforceable and works. But please be careful that the messaging is not, “drinking on trains (to excess) is now ok again.” Because for many people going about their daily lives, who just want to get from A to B in some level of comfort and security, the impact of Alcohol related behaviour on Society and specifically on transport is indeed, utterly, utterly disgusting.
 

farci

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Equally interesting to hear this comment from someone who lives in Spain! I think you’ll find that people who don’t live in Scotland are still allowed to have opinions on these matters especially when, as UK taxpayers, we help fund ScotGov.
Touché!
Except that I lived in Glasgow until last year for over 60 years and retain a vote in that city as an overseas voter. I am all for political discourse but as 'jagardner1984' remarks, the last source I would quote is the Daily Express 'London centric media' rather than the Scottish press
 

John Bishop

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Yep it’s the most pointless rule on the railway. Non enforceable and not enforce. I’ve followed BTP through a train walking passed numerous tables of people openly drinking alcohol and not a word said. I believe BTP have actually said they will not enforce it. So it’s just more power control from this shambles of a Scottish Government. They could have relaxed it months/ years ago but have chosen not to. That’s very telling.
 

northscots

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The alcohol ban is Scottish Government imposed rather than something Scotrail want. Not being able to sell alcohol is why hospitality trolley provision is so sporadic, without alcohol sales it makes a massive loss. Staff aren't empowered to enforce it and in fact, beyond announcing the ban at the start of the journey, they are discouraged from speaking to individuals consuming alcohol to avoid confrontation when they have no support/backup. The BTP barely exist outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh and even then they dont have the resources to deal with it. Anything other than serious offenses don't even get a response.
 

Buzby

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Not strictly true, because people can get as leathered as they wish before travelling
You think? Just try to board a train at Glasgow Central worse for wear and see what happens. The support for a ban arrived by a circuitous route, where ‘neds’ wanted a beach party on the Ayrshire coast, anywhere from Ardrossan South Beach to Girvan and the locals complained of anti-social acts, swearing, lewd behaviour - all whilst there were no drink available on the trains. It wasn’t driven by the city-dwellers but the distant locals who were appalled by the nerve of the participants. If you look tanked up you don’t go - same as whether you take the train or fly.

it has certainly been a more enjoyable experience since the ban - and I for one would not support its removal.
 

Davester50

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You think? Just try to board a train at Glasgow Central worse for wear and see what happens. The support for a ban arrived by a circuitous route, where ‘neds’ wanted a beach party on the Ayrshire coast, anywhere from Ardrossan South Beach to Girvan and the locals complained of anti-social acts, swearing, lewd behaviour - all whilst there were no drink available on the trains. It wasn’t driven by the city-dwellers but the distant locals who were appalled by the nerve of the participants. If you look tanked up you don’t go - same as whether you take the train or fly.

it has certainly been a more enjoyable experience since the ban - and I for one would not support its removal.
It's almost as if there wasn't existing laws to deal with anti-social behaviour
 

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