ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[ainsworth74]

Cut the political chatter. Its off-topic. If anyone wants to talk about how hard done by/how much better (delete according to your political view) Scotland is then do so on a new thread in General Discusson.

 

[Stoney1979]

The brief for the Intercity stock was very much neutral on exactly which option would be chosen leaving that choice up to the operator.

The expectation was very much that there were 4 likely options that would meet the brief:

• 170s with internal re-organisation and vestibule doors to stop the passenger space opening directly onto the Highland Winter;
• Voyagers but with seat realignment and the toilet issues sorted;
• Refurbished HSTs;
• New DMU or Hybrid stock.

The 170s however were unlikely to meet the bonus speed improvement criteria that were a preferred but not a required option for Intercity in the franchise spec, unless they were re-engined which would bring all sorts of emission compliance issues to be considered.

I'd certainly say its too early to suggest that refurbishment of HSTs was the wrong option compared to new stock. Equally I'd say its too early to suggest that Serco were wrong to suggest that new stock was the answer on the Caledonian Sleeper rather than refurbishment.

Both schemes have suffered delays but the judgment will need to be on the quality and reliability of the final product as both projects demonstrate that new or refurbished stock are equally capable of delayed introductions.

This. You took the words right off my keyboard, even before I'd read the rest of what comes below.

 

[Sirius]

Doesn’t matter what Glasgow station it uses to arrive/depart for Waverley. It’s the Central connection and why it’s had electrification and new trains before anywhere else by NR/SR.

£120 million revamp and platform extension on Queen St Station will duty serve Central Line in the future if needs be. Planning.

Glasgow is like London for transport. Edinburgh stupidly went with trams instead of capacity and new SR stations, the tram line follows the railway at a much higher install cost.

Glasgow to Edinburgh via Airdrie/Bathgate has been electrified since opening in December 2010 Andy operated exclusively by the (then) newest EMUs in the Scotrail fleet.

 

[Stoney1979]

Cut the political chatter. Its off-topic. If anyone wants to talk about how hard done by/how much better (delete according to your political view) Scotland is then do so on a new thread in General Discusson.

Thank you Moderator.

So, anyway, it appears that SR have 5 un-refurbisfhed and one refurbished currently in their possession.

A fair bit of fanfare about the 385s here, but not much news for anyone outside the central belt:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45706021

 

[chuff chuff]

Supposedly they say (hope) that one more refurbished set 'should' be up before December.

 

[Stoney1979]

As far as I can make out, outside the electrified central belt the new HST service improvements (not just replacing existing 170/158 services) from Dec 9th will be:

• Extended Edinburgh to Arbroath services, providing close to an hourly local service for Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, and Carnoustie.
• New hourly Aberdeen to Montrose service, providing a minimum of an hourly service at Laurencekirk, Stonehaven, and Portlethen.
• Nine additional services between Inverness and Elgin, giving close to an hourly all-day service for Nairn, Forres and Elgin.

 

[marks87]

Central Scotland of three cities, when it’s in franchise agreement and name 7 cities, I’m not even gonna nit pik the landmark order should be in order when they can’t even see 4 cities and 3 cities isn’t fitting the 7 cities requirement lol

It’s a shame they destroyed the 7 marketing with a slap dash spilt of the graphic, it’s more shocking no one at A SR picked up on that for engine liverly.

There are seven cities.

Regardless of which side of the HST sets you look at, you’ll see all seven cities represented (not including the coaches).

 

[kilonewton]

So on each side of the full set there will be all cities represented. Makes sense to me, rather than having them 4 time on each set, and then necessarily being smaller to fit onto the power car and losing the impact.

 

[Chrism20]

This is even more soul destroying that the debate about where the engine is located.

Edinburgh, Glasgow and Stirling on one side with Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness on the other.

So the three cities that most people would perceive as the "Southern" ones are on one side and the four that most people would perceive as the "Northern" ones are on the other. Makes sense to me and rather than East/West it's actually North/South

 

[GusB]

What are the seven cities in the logo, this is the image that's split across the two sides of the powercar:

http://www.davidgordonltd.co.uk/hom...LLIO-SCOTRAIL_HST-LIVERY-WIP_2018-01-23-2.jpg

From left to right is it Perth, Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness, Edinburgh, Stirling, Glasgow?

I'n not understanding the point about Edinburgh/Glasgow being on the units, it wouldn't make sense to omit them when the HSTs will be going to those cities along with the other five.

Thanks for posting the link to that graphic. I'm trying to work out the landmarks. From what I can make out, and going from right to left:
- Clyde Arc and the Crane (Finnieston?) - Glasgow
- Wallace Monument - Stirling
- Edinburgh Castle, and I think it's the Royal Scots Greys monument - Edinburgh
- Inverness Castle and Flora McDonald statue - Inverness
- Memorial on Dundee Law
- William Wallace Statue - Aberdeen
- Perth waterfront

 

[marks87]

Dundee is the war memorial at the top of The Law.

 

[chuff chuff]

Dundee,war memorial on top of the Law.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Thanks for posting the link to that graphic. I'm trying to work out the landmarks. From what I can make out, and going from right to left:
- Clyde Arc and the Crane (Finnieston?) - Glasgow
- Wallace Monument - Stirling
- Edinburgh Castle, and I think it's the Royal Scots Greys monument - Edinburgh
- Inverness Castle and Flora McDonald statue - Inverness
- unsure what it's called, but it's in Dundee
- William Wallace Statue - Aberdeen
- Perth waterfront

I'm thinking that's the Law memorial for Dundee? I think you're right for the rest of them.

Good spot with Edinburgh as I was a bit puzzled by that statue which I was thinking was one of the ones beside the castle that don't quite match but you're right, it's the one down by Princes Street.

Edit - Redundant reference to Hill removed

 

[marks87]

Law Hill is tautological - Law means hill

</pedant>

 

[GusB]

Dundee is the war memorial at the top of The Law.

Dundee,war memorial on top of the Law.

Thank you - I will amend my post accordingly.

 

[JohnRegular]

It will be interesting to be able to directly compare dwell times of refurbished and unrefurbished coaches; how much time do pwer doors actually save?

 

[boabt]

Law Hill is tautological - Law means hill

</pedant>

There’s a picture of the Law in the refurbished waiting room in Dundee, where they’ve labelled it the Law Hill.
I tweeted a picture of it, and mentioned Scotrail’s error. I got a tweet back citing Wikipedia, stating that the locals call it the Law Hill.

Suddenly I understood the concept ‘mansplaining’.

 

[JohnMcL7]

There’s a picture of the Law in the refurbished waiting room in Dundee, where they’ve labelled it the Law Hill.
I tweeted a picture of it, and mentioned Scotrail’s error. I got a tweet back citing Wikipedia, stating that the locals call it the Law Hill.

Suddenly I understood the concept ‘mansplaining’.

When I lived briefly in Dundee I only knew it as Law Hill although I do appreciate the point that it's incorrect. I'd certainly have appreciated a four car HST at that point as the three car 170 was usually packed until Kirkcaldy and the frequent substitute two car 158 was not pleasant.

In terms of dwell times I'd have thought even with the power doors it's going to be slower than the likes of the 170 due to the door positioning/size? I guess in the opposite example above if all the doors were opened and no-one closed them that could make it a fair bit slower?

 

[jingsmonty]

It will be interesting to be able to directly compare dwell times of refurbished and unrefurbished coaches; how much time do pwer doors actually save?

Quite a fair bit of time, I would think - particularly at first, as none of us have any recent experience with self dispatching slam door stock (apart from the conductors who have worked the CS prior to the Serco days). We will all be ultra cautious, that's for sure!

 

[jingsmonty]

This. You took the words right off my keyboard, even before I'd read the rest of what comes below.

Me too - this makes the point that keeping 170s would have been a far more complicated & expensive solution (for an inferior product) than some people realise.

 

[jingsmonty]

Where were they going to get the extra intermediate cars from for the four car versions?

Worth noting "Trolley based catering services and limited toilet facilities also result in a less than ideal level of passenger facilities on board the Class 170’s, when combined with the low level noise from the underslung engines and inherent interior vibration the Turbostar fleet offers a relatively poor level of passenger comfort and refinement"

The proposed first class upgrade isn't very inspiring Vs the GWR first class on HST.

Exactly - also, the CET tanks on the 170s are far too small (with no scope to enlarge them either) - trains arriving/leaving Inverness later on in the day often have 'toilet issues', as the toilets lock themselves out of use as the CET tanks are full & needing detanked - something that has specifically been addressed with the refurbished MK3s on the HST

 

[jingsmonty]

Don't get me wrong, my eyebrows were raised very high when I found out that the SR franchise went for the HSTs. However, they have, and there are reasonably sound reasons behind it - for better or worse, as it has turned out. And that's that.

Everyone has a choice to make. Either get behind it - or sit and complain about what "might have been", which is quite a big waste of time and arguably not for this thread.

I, personally, was suprised with the decision to go for HSTs as well - pleasantly suprised, mind!

The report commissioned a few years ago about the HML specifically made the point that business travellers from Inverness travelling to the Central Belt far preferred using the LNER (as it is now) HST as opposed to the Scotrail services - it's not hard to see why. This may possibly have had a little bit of influence on the decision too.

 

[jingsmonty]

Hate to be that guy but a 4 car 755 has a fair bit more power on diesel than even a short HST, it should in fact be one of the fastest - if not, the accelerating diesel units on the network.

I'm not sure about that - anyway, a 4 car HST will have (slightly) more capacity than a 755 (no cabs taking up coach space) & would a 5 car 755 (not that there is one) have room to fit another engine to keep the power to weight ratio up there? From what I read about the 755s, aren't the 3 car versions the (slightly) more powerful versions? The HST has more installed power (4500hp), granted, it's probably heavier, but trust me, a 4 car HST is more than powerful enough - it goes like 'effluent of the proverbial shovel' & I wouldn't think a 5 car HST will be much different.

If Scotrail hadn't gone for HSTs, the FLIRT looks like it would have been the best option amongst the new trains out there - I actually like the idea of them & if I'm ever down Anglia way, I'd like a shot on one. But, I'm still glad we've gone for HSTs & I'm looking forward to them improving the Scotrail Inter7City network...

 

[sprinterguy]

From what I read about the 755s, aren't the 3 car versions the (slightly) more powerful versions?

I don't believe so; the 3 car versions are only fitted with two engines (Producing 956kW/1280hp), the 4 car units have four (1912kW/2560hp).

Both formations have the same number of powered axles though, so the 3-car units will be nippier when running in electric mode.

 

[JohnR]

The various options which the bidders no doubt looked at were dictated by cost. Any completely new build would presumably have high lease costs, and the use is only going to be around 10/15 years, before electrification replaces the vast majority. Also, a new build - complete with testing and approvals etc, may well have not met the timetable for their introduction.

So refurbing existing stock, which could be quickly brought into service and improving performance would have seemed like a good idea. Abellio (and passengers and TS) have been let down by Wabtec, who have clearly over promised and under delivered.

 

[SC43090]

The various options which the bidders no doubt looked at were dictated by cost. Any completely new build would presumably have high lease costs, and the use is only going to be around 10/15 years, before electrification replaces the vast majority. Also, a new build - complete with testing and approvals etc, may well have not met the timetable for their introduction.

So refurbing existing stock, which could be quickly brought into service and improving performance would have seemed like a good idea. Abellio (and passengers and TS) have been let down by Wabtec, who have clearly over promised and under delivered.

SC43090


Why are people on here still trying to blame Wabtec for some of the delays in the refurbishment programme..... They should read what SC43090 wrote on Monday evening as to some of the problems have been..... Also 43096 also wrote that some of the coaches chosen have come close to been rejected because of the condition they are in....... Wabtec are just trying to do a good job so they can last another 10 years or more......

 

[Carntyne]

Wabtec are being blamed because they're delivering the refurbishment programme, which is delayed.

 

[JohnR]

Wabtec presumably promised they could deliver the refurbishment programe to the timescale ScotRail specified. The fact that they arnt doing so is contractually their fault.

You could argue that with Wabtec's reputation, and the reputation of these vehicles, ScotRail should have known that this would happen, and that some of the blame rests with them, but if someone comes along and says "Yes, we can do all that for you, and on time and budget", you're hardly going to say "No thanks" are you?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The various options which the bidders no doubt looked at were dictated by cost. Any completely new build would presumably have high lease costs, and the use is only going to be around 10/15 years, before electrification replaces the vast majority.

Electrification would replace a DMU but not a bi-mode nor Mk5 LHCS.

 

[43096]

Wabtec presumably promised they could deliver the refurbishment programe to the timescale ScotRail specified. The fact that they arnt doing so is contractually their fault.

So you’ve seen the contract have you? It might exclude delays due to additional work arising - we don’t know.