ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Highland37]

What does "fine" mean in the context of 170 mtin and what caused the low availability of the classic sets?

 

[Macwomble]

If I were Abellio I would run as far and as fast from the ScotRail franchise as possible at the break-off point in 2020.

THAT would be no bad thing......but with whom do we replace them? Last thing we need is out of one "frying pan" straight into another.

 

[gsnedders]

THAT would be no bad thing......but with whom do we replace them? Last thing we need is out of one "frying pan" straight into another.

Whomever wins the ITT, presumably, given it's a large item of public procurement and subject to standard procurement law.

 

[jingsmonty]

The longer this second set takes, the more I wonder if this project can survive 2019 if a viable plan B - probably mk4s - becomes available. How long till all concerned look to cut their losses and move on?

Please, NOT the 'Mk4' argument again! Tedious beyond belief! This discussion is for another thread anyway....

 

[jingsmonty]

Am I right that most of Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness diagrams change crew at Perth or Dundee, and Aberdeen if they're going to Inverness that way? So an HST can't be put on service unless Control can be sure that all the crews for the whole diagram are passed out on the HST, whether refurbished or 'Classic'?

Yes, that's spot on - as an Inverness Driver, I only sign for HSTs between Inverness - Aberdeen & Inverness - Perth. You've got to take into account whatever crew is rostered onto that particular diagram, which could involve crews from Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth, Waverley & Queen St. Bit of a head wreck, to be honest! This should ease as more & more crews are trained - majority of the Inverness Drivers are now HST trained now

 

[jingsmonty]

I don’t want any input into the decisions. I want those paid to make informed decisions to do what they are paid for and tell us when the promised service improvements will actually take place.

Given the HST programme is now close to a year late and one set has been delivered, now seeing wholesale cancellations and short forming of services. Billions of pounds of taxpayers money have been poured into the rail network. Promises were made this would lead to wholesale improvement. This is the time for the travelling public to see a return on all that investment.

Instead we see a total shambles and no-one being accountable for the shambles. Instead customers are treated with disdain, read some of the attitudes on here many rail staff have no concept of a customer or why their views are important.

Worst service delivery for 13 years. Usual excuses and no change in attitude so we will continually get the same results.

I take offence to that! As a Scotrail Train Crew member, it is hardly the fault of the front line staff that the service is a shambles. I honestly can't blame the passengers for being irate, but IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE FRONT LINE STAFF! We have been messsed about as much as the passengers have been & we are also the ones who have to take the brunt of their anger!

 

[chuff chuff]

We have been messsed about as much as the passengers have been & we are also the ones who have to take the brunt of their anger!

And are just as much in the dark as the passengers.

 

[47271]

To be fair to Northhighland, I think the point was directed at a few murky posters who use sarcasm and other smartarsed or complacent responses to dismiss genuine passenger or public concerns. The employed status within the industry of these unnamed individuals is far less clear than that of those who post openly as front line staff. The two entries above this, for example, were written in a way that we know pretty much what sort of person made them and you deserve respect for that.

 

[jingsmonty]

To be fair to Northhighland, I think the point was directed at a few murky posters who use sarcasm and other smartarsed or complacent responses to dismiss genuine passenger or public concerns. The employed status within the industry of these unnamed individuals is far less clear than that of those who post openly as front line staff. The two entries above this, for example, were written in a way that we know pretty much what sort of person made them and you deserve respect for that.

Thank you for that, cheers. I'm sure Northhighland wasn't having a go at us front line staff in particular, it just read like that on first reading....

I'd be very unhappy if I was a paying passenger right now, it's just that as front line staff, we get it in the neck when decisions that affect passengers are made elsewhere....it's even worse for the Conductors, who are verbal punchbags rigjt now, given where the current level of service is at....
...

 

[Chrism20]

Is there indication of where they are with the training for crew on unrefurbished HSTs?

I.E. is it 50%/70%/80% etc complete?

 

[Northhighland]

I take offence to that! As a Scotrail Train Crew member, it is hardly the fault of the front line staff that the service is a shambles. I honestly can't blame the passengers for being irate, but IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE FRONT LINE STAFF! We have been messsed about as much as the passengers have been & we are also the ones who have to take the brunt of their anger!

Never ever said it was the fault of front line staff. If you read my posts I regularly make that point. On that point though it is still common to find some front line staff that could do with some training on how to treat customers. Most however are hard working people that deserve much credit in the current shambles.

My point is much deeper, if scotrail really put the customer at the centre of what they do different decisions would be made. This needs a change in mindset. Why get unrefurbished HST now? Problems have been obvious for months so this plan could have been in place for summer so the extra seats were available when they were most needed. I could go on but what is needed is a change of culture from the decision makers. Not a token gesture but a fundamental culture change. Communication with customers is a big part of that but to commmunicate effectively you have to understand what the customer needs.

I would add this is a problem for the rail industry all over. It receives massive public subsidy yet continually fails to deliver what it promises. Accountability means someone needs to explain why this happens over and over at timetable changes and what will be done to learn the lessons for the future.

 

[jingsmonty]

Never ever said it was the fault of front line staff. If you read my posts I regularly make that point. On that point though it is still common to find some front line staff that could do with some training on how to treat customers. Most however are hard working people that deserve much credit in the current shambles.

My point is much deeper, if scotrail really put the customer at the centre of what they do different decisions would be made. This needs a change in mindset. Why get unrefurbished HST now? Problems have been obvious for months so this plan could have been in place for summer so the extra seats were available when they were most needed. I could go on but what is needed is a change of culture from the decision makers. Not a token gesture but a fundamental culture change. Communication with customers is a big part of that but to commmunicate effectively you have to understand what the customer needs.

I would add this is a problem for the rail industry all over. It receives massive public subsidy yet continually fails to deliver what it promises. Accountability means someone needs to explain why this happens over and over at timetable changes and what will be done to learn the lessons for the future.

I don’t want any input into the decisions. I want those paid to make informed decisions to do what they are paid for and tell us when the promised service improvements will actually take place.

Given the HST programme is now close to a year late and one set has been delivered, now seeing wholesale cancellations and short forming of services. Billions of pounds of taxpayers money have been poured into the rail network. Promises were made this would lead to wholesale improvement. This is the time for the travelling public to see a return on all that investment.

Instead we see a total shambles and no-one being accountable for the shambles. Instead customers are treated with disdain, read some of the attitudes on here many rail staff have no concept of a customer or why their views are important.

Worst service delivery for 13 years. Usual excuses and no change in attitude so we will continually get the same results.

Very fair point & thanks for making that clear - but I'm sure you can appreciate how front line staff may have taken offence, especially when you talk about 'rail staff having no concept of a customer or why their views are important'.

I'm happy to acknowledge that wasn't your intention, but the term 'rail staff' tends, to me at least, include front line staff. If it's sone of the management decisions that have been made recently that you're referring to, then I (& most of my colleagues) would probably whole heartedly agree with you!

Us staff saw these problems coming & basically knew we'd be left to take the brunt of the (justifiable & completely understandable) anger of the passengers.

Staff recruitment/training is way behind (& is not entirely the fault of the RMT, as some of the media utterances would have you believe) - Scotrail were relying on rest day working BEFORE the new timetable was introduced!

 

[Mingulay]

Very fair point & thanks for making that clear - but I'm sure you can appreciate how front line staff may have taken offence, especially when you talk about 'rail staff having no concept of a customer or why their views are important'.

I'm happy to acknowledge that wasn't your intention, but the term 'rail staff' tends, to me at least, include front line staff. If it's sone of the management decisions that have been made recently that you're referring to, then I (& most of my colleagues) would probably whole heartedly agree with you!

Us staff saw these problems coming & basically knew we'd be left to take the brunt of the (justifiable & completely understandable) anger of the passengers.

Staff recruitment/training is way behind (& is not entirely the fault of the RMT, as some of the media utterances would have you believe) - Scotrail were relying on rest day working BEFORE the new timetable was introduced!

That is the important point in the recent staff shortage cancellations. The root cause is insufficient staff employed. This gets lost in the smokescreen of training on new trains being the cause. It’s a factor to an extent but this new timetable debacle is down to Scotrail failings on many levels. The PR spin is often left unchallenged by media interviews.

Would it have been better to postpone the new timetable 4 weeks rather than press particularly all the other problems of HST introduction?

 

[najaB]

Would it have been better to postpone the new timetable 4 weeks…

That depends on if it would have had an impact on other operators. If it wouldn't have impacted on other TOC/FOC paths then maybe so.

 

[jingsmonty]

That is the important point in the recent staff shortage cancellations. The root cause is insufficient staff employed. This gets lost in the smokescreen of training on new trains being the cause. It’s a factor to an extent but this new timetable debacle is down to Scotrail failings on many levels. The PR spin is often left unchallenged by media interviews.

Would it have been better to postpone the new timetable 4 weeks rather than press particularly all the other problems of HST introduction?

Exactly - Scotrail should have recruited staff Months before they did. Now we have lots of new staff being pushed through, as well as the training of existing staff at the same time!

Personally, waiting until May (or Dec 2019, even), would have been sensible. 4 Weeks would be a struggle to have all training complete. It needs to be remembered that there is a high number of brand new staff to be fully trained, as well as the training of existing staff on HSTs.

 

[Mingulay]

That depends on if it would have had an impact on other operators. If it wouldn't have impacted on other TOC/FOC paths then maybe so.

I see what you mean. But there again. This is the issue. Who should be the priority in that case. Scotrail passengers facing cancellations or other train operators ? The culture needs to change in the industry to put passengers first.

 

[mic505]

MK4's are not fully PRM compliant. Sets won't be available until at least mid 2019 for several reasons.

 

[najaB]

Who should be the priority in that case. Scotrail passengers facing cancellations, other train operator's passengers, or freight customers?

Put in the part you were missing.

 

[Northhighland]

The staff issue is wholly foreseeable. It is disgraceful that staff weren’t recruited on time. That is not difficult to plan. I would take issue on postponing the introduction of HST’s if you consider the passenger view they just want a train with a seat that turns up on time. Another 6 months of short formed trains is wholly unacceptable.

This is my point none of the planning seems to have considered the needs of passengers.

 

[Steven_G]

Round and round we go. So, to move it on a little, with a positive spin......

Scotrail from the 7th Jan will be where they get judged on this new timetable. Yup, the start wasn't great...they got knuckles wrapped, only saving grace is that the loads have eased over the holidays.

Meanwhile staff training has continued with some 385 deliveries too, so let's see how many HST and short trains run from that second week in January.

 

[jingsmonty]

The staff issue is wholly foreseeable. It is disgraceful that staff weren’t recruited on time. That is not difficult to plan. I would take issue on postponing the introduction of HST’s if you consider the passenger view they just want a train with a seat that turns up on time. Another 6 months of short formed trains is wholly unacceptable.

This is my point none of the planning seems to have considered the needs of passengers.

100% correct. We are constantly being asked to work Rest Days just now, purely to cover the timetable, never mind the training!

The HST introduction couldn't have been postponed, as the sets are needed to make up for the DMUs that have gone off-lease, otherwise I'd like to have thought that the unrefurbished sets wouldn't have been required - that's another issue, though.

 

[kylemore]

One downside of the coach . Of course if theres spaces but can be a lengthy wait , no dupes it seems .

Well the corrupt scoundrels of the privatised UK bus industry were way ahead of the railway in terms of efficiency ie. squeezing the last drops of profit out by doing away with any redundancy - spares. The corrupt scoundrels who now run the UK's privatised rail operators have caught up and now we see the result with a generally unreliable rail service!

Apologies in advance to mods for wandering from topic

 

[superkev]

Looking at the recent thread of 185s being offered to Irish rail I count help thinking how suitable they would be for Scotland's hills.
As to me it looks doubtful Wabtech will finish all the coaches for Dec 2019 if at all 185s may allow the HST program to be reduced.
K

 

[jingsmonty]

Looking at the recent thread of 185s being offered to Irish rail I count help thinking how suitable they would be for Scotland's hills.
As to me it looks doubtful Wabtech will finish all the coaches for Dec 2019 if at all 185s may allow the HST program to be reduced.
K

As a stopgap, 185s may be suitable, but in every other way, they aren't a patch on HST (a refurbished one, at least) for the HML in particular. Exactly the same issues as 170s (apart from the performance, obviously) - doors in wrong place, full toilets, lack of luggage/cycle storage, less seating capacity than a 170 (I think), much noisier & poorer ride (I have experienced this myself, having travelled on 185s a good few times - a 170 is nicer to tra vel in, never mind a Mk3!).

I'm sure if you asked the average passenger to compare a refurbished Mk3 with a 185, the Mk3 would win hands down.

I COULD see a situation where 185s could be used as a stopgap (in much the same way as the 365s were used on the E & G) - the training wouldn't be too intense either (being a straight DMU conversion from the other Scotrail DMUs), but in no way should 185s be seen as a full time substitute for a refurbished HST! Only route I could see them being suitable for would be Inverness - Aberdeen, due to the nature of the traffic.

 

[jingsmonty]

Just as an aside, there is a major blockade coming during 2019 on the Inverness - Aberdeen line (I'm assuming it will be during the summer), for the Dyce to Inverurie redoubling. This may ease the pressure on the rolling stock for a couple of Months or so, as the Inverness - Huntly & Aberdeen - Dyce shuttles (I presume this is how it will be worked) can be covered with DMUs shuttling back & fore.

 

[aar0]

We're they leaking with GWR?

Not that I ever noticed. Surely in the year they've sat (max) the roofs can't have perforated?!

 

[gingertom]

As a stopgap, 185s may be suitable, but in every other way, they aren't a patch on HST (a refurbished one, at least) for the HML in particular. Exactly the same issues as 170s (apart from the performance, obviously) - doors in wrong place, full toilets, lack of luggage/cycle storage, less seating capacity than a 170 (I think), much noisier & poorer ride (I have experienced this myself, having travelled on 185s a good few times - a 170 is nicer to tra vel in, never mind a Mk3!).

I'm sure if you asked the average passenger to compare a refurbished Mk3 with a 185, the Mk3 would win hands down.

I COULD see a situation where 185s could be used as a stopgap (in much the same way as the 365s were used on the E & G) - the training wouldn't be too intense either (being a straight DMU conversion from the other Scotrail DMUs), but in no way should 185s be seen as a full time substitute for a refurbished HST! Only route I could see them being suitable for would be Inverness - Aberdeen, due to the nature of the traffic.

add to that there aren't heavy maintenance facilities for 185s north of the border. Not the end of the world to set up a suitable depot facility but is it really worthwhile training up staff and establishing a spares holding for a short term stopgap solution?

 

[jingsmonty]

Not that I ever noticed. Surely in the year they've sat (max) the roofs can't have perforated?!

I think the air intakes on the roof of a Mk3 can be prone to corrosion - I was reading something similar re the 125 group (the preservation group who've restored the prototype HST power car & are working on Mk3 coaches to go with it). It's the metal covers that cover the air intakes-they are raised up off the roof & tend to be prone to corrosion as a result. Annoying, but not a major issue to fix, I wouldn't have thought?

 

[jingsmonty]

add to that there aren't heavy maintenance facilities for 185s north of the border. Not the end of the world to set up a suitable depot facility but is it really worthwhile training up staff and establishing a spares holding for a short term stopgap solution?

Exactly - it barely seems worthwhile. By the time this actually would be in place, we should have more refurbished HST sets anyway.

 

[BRX]

I think the air intakes on the roof of a Mk3 can be prone to corrosion - I was reading something similar re the 125 group (the preservation group who've restored the prototype HST power car & are working on Mk3 coaches to go with it). Annoying, but nit a major issue to fix, I wouldn't have thought?

I seem to remember reading about that in a recent 125 group magazine.