ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

I was at DOncaster station waiting form my train home on the 2nd and there were two Scotrail liveries power cars in the Wabtec storage line near the station. Also visible were various GWR Mkiii several with blue plastic tarpaulins over the vestibule roof. I winder if there is a corrosion issue where the hatch like opening is situated.

That's a pretty safe assumption - I can only imagine the mess that water ingress would make if it was trapped in this area (particularly salt water).

 

[DarloRich]

That's a pretty safe assumption - I can only imagine the mess that water ingress would make if it was trapped in this area (particularly salt water).

cheers - btw fat finger syndrome has attacked the post you linked - apologies!

 

[jingsmonty]

cheers - btw fat finger syndrome has attacked the post you linked - apologies!

I frequently suffer from 'fat finger syndrome' myself....

Have also just checked Scotrail app & noticed that the 21.56 Aberdeen to Inverness is a '170 instead of an HST ...due to 'lack of train crew', which is a suprise....

 

[fishquinn]

Hoping one will turn up on the 1255 Inverness - Waverley this week, as I'm booked to work it one day this week!

Were you lucky?

Very much hoping things improve over the next month, particularly on the Inverness route, as I'm in Scotland for a few days in the beginning of February (based in Inverness for the first half and Glasgow for the second half) and am hoping to get plenty of HSTs. It doesn't look that hopeful for those days I'm in Inverness unless I do the Chieftain each way unfortunately...

 

[jingsmonty]

Were you lucky?

Very much hoping things improve over the next month, particularly on the Inverness route, as I'm in Scotland for a few days in the beginning of February (based in Inverness for the first half and Glasgow for the second half) and am hoping to get plenty of HSTs. It doesn't look that hopeful for those days I'm in Inverness unless I do the Chieftain each way unfortunately...

I WAS lucky, actually! Although neither the 1255 Inverness to Waverley or the 2156 Aberdeen to Inverness are HSTs Today (which they are booked to be).

Hopefully the situation will improve over rhe next few weeks....

 

[Emblematic]

That's a pretty safe assumption - I can only imagine the mess that water ingress would make if it was trapped in this area (particularly salt water).

Just a thought - those hatches are to access the water tanks for the toilets, one of which is being removed on each carriage. I would assume that any spillage, from the tank overflowing or the hatches leaking, was caught and directed through the toilet drainage. With that being removed, it's possible that water leakage is now finding it's own way out. Could be those hatches have leaked for decades, and may have never been properly sealed, if the drainage was in place.

 

[David M]

I appreciate that training is required but, honestly, how many hours training does a guard/conductor require to switch from 158/170 to HST? What is causing the complication? This seems to be dragging on and on.

 

[najaB]

I appreciate that training is required but, honestly, how many hours training does a guard/conductor require to switch from 158/170 to HST?

If they've not worked slam door stock before then they'll need quite a bit. Even if they have, dispatch positions will be completely different so they'll need to call at every station that they'll be likely to make passenger stops at.

 

[Highland37]

Doesn't sound particularly complex or difficult.

 

[najaB]

Doesn't sound particularly complex or difficult.

It's not. It just takes time to schedule each guard onto the limited training set runs that are available.

 

[chuff chuff]

It's not. It just takes time to schedule each guard onto the limited training set runs that are available.

That same problem for driver training.

 

[route101]

I frequently suffer from 'fat finger syndrome' myself....

Have also just checked Scotrail app & noticed that the 21.56 Aberdeen to Inverness is a '170 instead of an HST ...due to 'lack of train crew', which is a suprise....

The app doesn't always say if its short formed as i found out a few weeks back.

 

[mcmad]

Probably. We are talking about 40 year old vehicles that have been hammered for years and sprayed by the sea. If this is a surprise to Wabtec, then we should be more worried.

It depends on what the contract between ScotRail/TS, the ROSCO and Wabtec is for and what it covers which none of us know.

If all wabtec were signed up for was an interior refurb, fitting power doors and toilet mods then if the coaches show up more fresh air than steel its the fault of whoever out of the ROSCO or ScotRail/TS did the condition surveys and agreed they weren't in need of anything more major.

TBH, until one of the papers or opposition parties gets hold of that contract this will just go round in circles.

 

[Bassman]

I was in Haymarket today, awaiting the service to Inverness
Two' Classic HST's' passed with passengers, heading into Waverley and viewed from the passenger over-bridge all the coaches had corrosion of different levels on the roof.
The 13.36 Edinburgh to Inverness was then operated by a HST. It was a good experience and more comfortable than a 170 to my mind .

 

[jingsmonty]

That same problem for driver training.

Minimum 3 Weeks to convert a qualified driver from DMU to HST - whose shifts will also need to be covered during the 3 weeks training. Easy to see where the 'train crew shortage' stems from. The Conductor training is fairly involved too - working slam door stock is VERY different to power operated door stock - major safety implications if corners are cut!

 

[Northhighland]

If they've not worked slam door stock before then they'll need quite a bit. Even if they have, dispatch positions will be completely different so they'll need to call at every station that they'll be likely to make passenger stops at.

Worst possible result is training is rushed and something goes wrong. Staff need trained properly and no short cuts. Safety of passengers and staff is first and foremost.

Passengers will not like this but if communicated openly and honestly with a clear programme then it will be tolerated with good grace.

 

[jingsmonty]

Worst possible result is training is rushed and something goes wrong. Staff need trained properly and no short cuts. Safety of passengers and staff is first and foremost.

Passengers will not like this but if communicated openly and honestly with a clear programme then it will be tolerated with good grace.

100% Spot On - I just wish Scotrail would just do this, instead of continually blaming the RMT!

 

[jingsmonty]

Does anyone know what the refurbished set is up to? Have hears a rumour of 1 or more refurbished sets arriving shortly - let's hope so...

 

[43096]

Minimum 3 Weeks to convert a qualified driver from DMU to HST - whose shifts will also need to be covered during the 3 weeks training. Easy to see where the 'train crew shortage' stems from. The Conductor training is fairly involved too - working slam door stock is VERY different to power operated door stock - major safety implications if corners are cut!

It is not like the HST (and, indeed, 385) training requirement was unknown for ScotRail. This could and should have been better planned.

ScotRail aren’t the only ones: there appears to be a serial incapability with the railway on these “big bang” training programmes as the likes of Northern and GWR have also demonstrated.

 

[route101]

I was in Haymarket today, awaiting the service to Inverness
Two' Classic HST's' passed with passengers, heading into Waverley and viewed from the passenger over-bridge all the coaches had corrosion of different levels on the roof.
The 13.36 Edinburgh to Inverness was then operated by a HST. It was a good experience and more comfortable than a 170 to my mind .

Was it busy ?

 

[nicholaswood]

Does anyone know what the refurbished set is up to? Have hears a rumour of 1 or more refurbished sets arriving shortly - let's hope so...

It was sitting next to the tram tracks at Haymarket depot when I drove past on Thursday.

 

[najaB]

It is not like the HST (and, indeed, 385) training requirement was unknown for ScotRail. This could and should have been better planned.

I think that they had planned the driver training on the basis that there would be more sets in service sooner. AIUI, a big part of the problem has been keeping drivers training current.

 

[chuff chuff]

Minimum 3 Weeks to convert a qualified driver from DMU to HST - whose shifts will also need to be covered during the 3 weeks training. Easy to see where the 'train crew shortage' stems from. The Conductor training is fairly involved too - working slam door stock is VERY different to power operated door stock - major safety implications if corners are cut!

The lack of actual sets out and about i would imagine impedes the training programme and keeping trained drivers competent.

 

[47271]

The lack of actual sets out and about i would imagine impedes the training programme and keeping trained drivers competent.

'Out and about' maybe is the right phrase. During the autumn there was hardly a depot or siding in Scotland that didn't have a dilapidated 'classic' HST parked in it. Scotrail must have been able to get them moving for training earlier when it became clear that they were going to have to be part of a temporary solution. I'm genuinely puzzled by this, regardless of claims of the RMT dispute being the blocker.

 

[chuff chuff]

'Out and about' maybe is the right phrase. During the autumn there was hardly a depot or siding in Scotland that didn't have a dilapidated 'classic' HST parked in it. Scotrail must have been able to get them moving for training earlier when it became clear that they were going to have to be part of a temporary solution. I'm genuinely puzzled by this, regardless of claims of the RMT dispute being the blocker.

Then the sets were dedicated to training even often didn't make it out due to faults but now there are no training sets as such as there supposed to be providing a service.Now on a day to day basis nobody knows what's running and what isn't so would make planning the training runs and static training more problematic.

 

[fishquinn]

Hi all,

I've noticed that Tiger (http://iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger/sr.html) will show you the number of coaches a Scotrail service has (which can then be used to deduce whether it's a 170 or an HST based on if there's 3 or 4 coaches) but this only works for Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley and Aberdeen, with all other Scotrail HST served stations not being on there. Given that the live data for the train lengths is clearly available does anyone know if there's an alternative site I can use to find the length of (say) an Inverness to Edinburgh train before departure (or even during the train's journey)?

Many thanks,

FQ.

 

[najaB]

During the autumn there was hardly a depot or siding in Scotland that didn't have a dilapidated 'classic' HST parked in it.

Someone who regularly passed Dundee carriage sidings over the autumn would have said exactly the same thing - there was always one or two HSTs there.

The more observant person would have noticed that they were rarely in the same spot for more than a day, and that often it wasn't the same set there in the evening that they passed in the morning. Yes, they spent a lot of time in the sidings, but that was between (sometimes multiple) daily training runs.

I can't speak for other locations but the Dundee sets got a lot of running.

 

[deltic08]

There is the small matter of the proposed remodelling of Perth to contend with first...

No problem. Put up the wires on the lines first and leave Perth until it has been remodelled.

Carry on from Dunblane to Hilton Jnc and Stanley Jnc to Inverness. When Perth is finished, complete Perth. Stanchions can be erected as the remodelling progresses as at Reading.

Order bimodes now for use between Perth and Aberdeen, Aberdeen and Inverness and Edinburgh and Perth/Dundee whilst they are being electrified.

 

[47271]

No problem. Put up the wires on the lines first and leave Perth until it has been remodelled.

Carry on from Dunblane to Hilton Jnc and Stanley Jnc to Inverness. When Perth is finished, complete Perth. Stanchions can be erected as the remodelling progresses as at Reading.

Order bimodes now for use between Perth and Aberdeen, Aberdeen and Inverness and Edinburgh and Perth/Dundee whilst they are being electrified.

We're going off topic but what I would do is improve capacity on Ladybank-Hilton Jn first of all, including an east-west chord at Hilton and stations at Bridge of Earn and Newburgh. This brings value to the greatest number of passengers first. Then when the inevitable Moncrieffe Tunnel and Perth blockade comes, a viable service can still be operated to both Edinburgh and Glasgow with a station (that's needed anyway) close to both Perth and the motorway for easy transfers while remodelling is completed. Then they can electrify north of Dunblane and we get our bimodes.

Nothing so sensible will ever happen of course.

 

[Bassman]

Was it busy ?

Yes it was busy but still plenty of seats free .. First class was almost empty, though I guess folk did not appreciate that it was looking really like first class accommodation compared to a 170.
The acceleration and speed impressive too. If it is a reliable train then it is indeed a great improvement.