ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Highland37]

I know but I am sort of hoping that the railway can aim slightly higher than either of the bench marks above. When the A9 is dualled, brand new coaches will appear which are more comfortable and cheaper. Staying the past is not an option.

 

[hexagon789]

I know but I am sort of hoping that the railway can aim slightly higher than either of the bench marks above. When the A9 is dualled, brand new coaches will appear which are more comfortable and cheaper. Staying the past is not an option.

A train is still more comfortable than a coach, indeed even a two-car 158 is in my opinion.

The issue is that of the new stock available nothing is really any better than a refurbished Mk3 they are mostly on a par at the very least. People in general seem happy with them, particularly so with the refurbs, perhaps once they are all in service and comparison with passenger satisfaction levels should be done to see if it's been worthwhile.

 

[Highland37]

You are deluding yourself. The bus market is really growing, as is the railway, and the Mk3s are decades out of date. Yes they are very slowly being modernised but are miles behind and there aren't enough trained staff. The project has been a disaster to date and a model of how not to implement change. I still support the use of HSTs but it's time to start planning for the future which should be electric.

 

[Northhighland]

You are deluding yourself. The bus market is really growing, as is the railway, and the Mk3s are decades out of date. Yes they are very slowly being modernised but are miles behind and there aren't enough trained staff. The project has been a disaster to date and a model of how not to implement change. I still support the use of HSTs but it's time to start planning for the future which should be electric.

Think electrification of HML is unlikely to ever happen. Would be great if it did but really can’t see it.

You are right about bus competition. It will hurt the train if not recognised and considered. Also no one standing in a city link bus.

Agree with your comments the implementation could scarcely been handled more ineffectively.

 

[Robertj21a]

A train is still more comfortable than a coach, indeed even a two-car 158 is in my opinion.

The issue is that of the new stock available nothing is really any better than a refurbished Mk3 they are mostly on a par at the very least. People in general seem happy with them, particularly so with the refurbs, perhaps once they are all in service and comparison with passenger satisfaction levels should be done to see if it's been worthwhile.

You may not have been on a modern coach recently, they can be very comfortable and provide a relaxing environment.

 

[Killingworth]

You may not have been on a modern coach recently, they can be very comfortable and provide a relaxing environment.

And when demand requires it doesn't take long to resource extra coaches. But you can't stand up and walk to the buffet or toilet.

 

[Bassman]

Think electrification of HML is unlikely to ever happen. Would be great if it did but really can’t see it.

You are right about bus competition. It will hurt the train if not recognised and considered. Also no one standing in a city link bus.

Agree with your comments the implementation could scarcely been handled more ineffectively.

I also agree, but i do feel for carbon neutral perspectives, we have to try to be more optimistic and get politicians to really invest in rail infrastructure and particularly in the north. Electrification of some sort then becomes a future necessity. I would go further and give the example of rail investment in the North of Sweden and say we must consider new efficient lines which link towns around the Moray Firth from Thurso to Peterhead straightened for higher speeds and better comfort.
This is long term but essential than discussions about whether there is trolley services to Wick.

The HST introduction is really welcome as it raises a quick way to upgrade serious rail travel.

 

[InOban]

Many long-distance coaches do have a toilet. In Scotland they are particularly popular because we can use our 'bus passes' on them.

 

[Bassman]

As a regular HML traveller my instinct is most passengers appreciate the classic over the noisy and cramped 170. Also no gust of cold air every time the door opens.

Not heard anyone Moaning at all.

Exactly .. There is no argument if you have been on a 170 in mid winter and all doors open at Kingussie with temperatures well below zero. This gives all passengers a real experience of winter in the Cairngorms - even a 158 is preferable in those conditions, if their doors or couplings don't freeze.

 

[hexagon789]

You are deluding yourself. The bus market is really growing, as is the railway, and the Mk3s are decades out of date. Yes they are very slowly being modernised but are miles behind and there aren't enough trained staff. The project has been a disaster to date and a model of how not to implement change. I still support the use of HSTs but it's time to start planning for the future which should be electric.

I don't see how, as far as I'm concerned rail travel will always be preferable to coach travel. I fail to see how that's deluded; simply a case of I know what I prefer.

 

[hexagon789]

You may not have been on a modern coach recently, they can be very comfortable and provide a relaxing environment.

I have and they aren't. A railway carriage (or unit), is far preferable - more room, quieter, smoother, faster.

 

[route101]

Many long-distance coaches do have a toilet. In Scotland they are particularly popular because we can use our 'bus passes' on them.

I prefer the train , though i dont find Citylink cheap anymore . The coaches to Aberdeen and Inverness get booked up to . Are concession pass holders booking these up?

 

[Highland37]

I don't see how, as far as I'm concerned rail travel will always be preferable to coach travel. I fail to see how that's deluded; simply a case of I know what I prefer.

I am referring to a mass transport system, not your personal preferences. The public have been hugely let down by the railway. Wabtec continue to fail in HST refurbishment. Scotrail are a model of abysmal implementation and planning and the vehicles themselves are ancient and less reliable. Couple that with the dualling of the A9 and the fact that the railway has a "can't do" attitude (ref HML electrification (it's normal in many other countries)) and you can see why there are huge problems in in the future. You only have to note the pressure on SNCF from coach travel and see what they are doing in response. The TGV is a product that is so far in excess of the HST that it isn't really worth comparing.

Back on topic, how many refurbished sets are in daily service?

 

[InOban]

I prefer the train , though i dont find Citylink cheap anymore . The coaches to Aberdeen and Inverness get booked up to . Are concession pass holders booking these up?

Concession holders have to pay £1 to book. And they pay a small supplement on the Gold services. The timetabled journey time is little different, but there's no delay repay!

 

[hexagon789]

Back on topic, how many refurbished sets are in daily service?

Generally four at present.

 

[Maxfly]

I am referring to a mass transport system, not your personal preferences. The public have been hugely let down by the railway. Wabtec continue to fail in HST refurbishment. Scotrail are a model of abysmal implementation and planning and the vehicles themselves are ancient and less reliable. Couple that with the dualling of the A9 and the fact that the railway has a "can't do" attitude (ref HML electrification (it's normal in many other countries)) and you can see why there are huge problems in in the future. You only have to note the pressure on SNCF from coach travel and see what they are doing in response. The TGV is a product that is so far in excess of the HST that it isn't really worth comparing.

Back on topic, how many refurbished sets are in daily service?

I agree with that, the recent HML ‘improvements ‘ have been a major let down for the Railway, compounded with the boasting that they came in 57million!?! Under budget. A lacklustre scheme in the end with many of the hoped for parts of the project, that could have really complemented the HST introduction (when it is finally all in place) being shaved away.

 

[Northhighland]

I also agree, but i do feel for carbon neutral perspectives, we have to try to be more optimistic and get politicians to really invest in rail infrastructure and particularly in the north. Electrification of some sort then becomes a future necessity. I would go further and give the example of rail investment in the North of Sweden and say we must consider new efficient lines which link towns around the Moray Firth from Thurso to Peterhead straightened for higher speeds and better comfort.
This is long term but essential than discussions about whether there is trolley services to Wick.

The HST introduction is really welcome as it raises a quick way to upgrade serious rail travel.

Would be nice to see investment in Rail infrastructure outside the central belt. However it won’t happen. The cost of “straightening” the far North line would be eye watering. Bridge over Dornoch Firth and a link from Helmsdale to Wick would make the borders railway look like a bargain. Business case simply won’t stack up. I would love it. But can’t see it happening.

Also the move to electric driverless cars makes bargains rail investment much less likely. Hope I am wrong and you are right but doubt it.

 

[Highland37]

Business cases don't stack up for railways. They require massive subsidy. If business cases is how we are going to assess whether something goes ahead, it's time to abandon railways. It is the social cases where railways are strong.

I am about to go on, hopefully, a hugily subsidised HST.

 

[Highland37]

It's a packed 170 with luggage all over the place, no reservations, rammed with bikes and a classic set alongside at platform 3.

Depressing how poor the railway has become. Am I right in thinking a refurbished set will have less space for bikes than a 170?

 

[Bassman]

Would be nice to see investment in Rail infrastructure outside the central belt. However it won’t happen. The cost of “straightening” the far North line would be eye watering. Bridge over Dornoch Firth and a link from Helmsdale to Wick would make the borders railway look like a bargain. Business case simply won’t stack up. I would love it. But can’t see it happening.

Also the move to electric driverless cars makes bargains rail investment much less likely. Hope I am wrong and you are right but doubt it.

There has been some more investment recently and it is good to see. However we imagine a spaceport in Caithness ( linked with a Victorian railway. ) A borders railway was an imaginary project. In Scotland we have such a great engineering legacy, can we not do serious rail infra-structure anymore.
It is possible, in a business sense, moving resources and taxation around to create more carbon efficient infrastructure. Seeing HST trains on the Aberdeen route is a great start with new stations at Forres, Dalcross and Kintore, along with double tracking Inverurie to Aberdeen, an amazing difference.
Politicians, journalists, and those interested in rail improvement around the Moray Firth need to work together with a 'can do' approach to this.

 

[Highland37]

Off topic... But I agree with the above. Funding is the major issue though.

 

[Highland37]

The busiest 170 I have ever been on is currently our transportation north. No reservations as usual, luggage all over the place, slow and dirty.

No sign of the fabled refurbished HSTs.

Get the bus is my advice.

 

[hexagon789]

The busiest 170 I have ever been on is currently our transportation north. No reservations as usual, luggage all over the place, slow and dirty.

No sign of the fabled refurbished HSTs.

Get the bus is my advice.

If you consider the bus superior then why don't you?

 

[haggishunter]

For the foreseeable future ScotRail should stop all seat reservations. Recently seen multiple incidents of duplicate reservations for the same seat on the West Highland Line. Will it be better when the rolling stock settles down, more refurbed HSTs on the HML, only refurbed 156s on WHL or is there a fundamental problem with the National booking system that allows this sort of nonsense?

 

[Highland37]

If you consider the bus superior then why don't you?

Because I want to support the railway and see it flourish. I also prefer the train and it is less damaging to the environment. I hope that answers your question.

The train crew told me that this 170 is to replace an "older train" which isn't available. No idea what that means but I'll ponder it in the one working toilet which also has no water out the taps.

 

[Highland37]

The HSTs may be old, unreliable and awol, but they are desperately needed.

 

[hexagon789]

For the foreseeable future ScotRail should stop all seat reservations. Recently seen multiple incidents of duplicate reservations for the same seat on the West Highland Line. Will it be better when the rolling stock settles down, more refurbed HSTs on the HML, only refurbed 156s on WHL or is there a fundamental problem with the National booking system that allows this sort of nonsense?

I can see the argument for doing that but perhaps or would be better to on my suspend them on the routes where the stick is up in the air rather than the popular tourist routes as well.

Perhaps abolish them only on the HSTs.

 

[Highland37]

Confirmation on the number of bike spaces on the refurbished HSTs?

 

[hexagon789]

Confirmation on the number of bike spaces on the refurbished HSTs?

Still a woefully inadequate 2 unfortunately, thus far nothing seems to have come of proposals to increase that.

 

[Highland37]

Still a woefully inadequate 2 unfortunately, thus far nothing seems to have come of proposals to increase that.

Wow. This gets worse and worse. The 156s have 8? 170s 4? HSTs 2? What a joke.