ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Steven_G]

Talk of 800 - unfortunately it’s all about money.

Refurbished HST and MK3 coaches are far cheaper than sets of 800.

I don’t recall the HST even being talked about a couple of years ago. 170’s was as good as it was going to get.

 

[Highlandspring]

In service?

I’m afraid I don’t know whether or not it will be open to the public if it does happen.

 

[InOban]

If I'm not mistaken, they're diverting the Edinburgh to Oban service. Which has hardly run this summer because, in a wonderful bit of joined-up thinking, NR decided to close the line at Dumbarton for several Sundays at the peak of the year.
The actual anniversary celebrations are this Wednesday.

 

[Highland37]

If this project completes, then looking forward what will likely be the constraining factor on the remaining operational life expectancy of the HSTs? Will it be the power cars or the Mark IIIs? IE the power cars will be done in 8 to 10 years, but the coaches could be good for another 20 or vice versa.

There seems to be a fair bit of evidence of suppressed demand, while already services which are fairly regularly seeing HSTs are getting busier. One of the reasons for going with short HSTs was that neither of Class 80Xs or 68 and Mark Vs for example could match the timings short HSTs could attain (which is necessary for the proposed HML timetable). So while the HSTs can be lengthened, is it the case that beyond 2+5 the acceleration and timing advantage over other options is lost?

On the HML increased frequency will address some of the capacity, but is that an option on any other of the HST operated routes?

The coaches could be good until they are 60 years old? This is getting further and further from reality. They are ancient and importantly, not in service in any significant numbers with Scotrail.

 

[chuff chuff]

Saw my first set the other day with gps flush/no flush fitted.

 

[47271]

Saw my first set the other day with gps flush/no flush fitted.

How does that work? If the next person goes in does it suddenly fire off once it's out of the station, which could be quite surprising to the user, or do you need to pull the handle again?

 

[hexagon789]

If everything can be sorted out in time an HST will be running to Fort William (and possibly Glenfinnan) on Sunday 18th August to celebrate the 125th anniversary of the opening of the West Highland Line.

Very apt, a 125 for the 125th!

 

[Highlandspring]

Yes that’s the whole point.

 

[chuff chuff]

How does that work? If the next person goes in does it suddenly fire off once it's out of the station, which could be quite surprising to the user, or do you need to pull the handle again?

Apparently it automatically flushes when clear of a 'sensitive ' area.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes that’s the whole point.

Sorry, I meant more the fact the numbers match coincidentally.

 

[Highlandspring]

And I meant thats exactly the reason it's being done. It's not a coincidence.

 

[hexagon789]

And I meant thats exactly the reason it's being done. It's not a coincidence.

Apologies, I picked you up wrong there. We'll, it's nice to see that while others may not go ahead at least some thought is being put into it.

 

[47271]

Nice that the WHL will see an HST but if I was Scotrail I'd give a wide berth to anything that draws attention to the state of the refurb programme. They need to keep their heads down and get on with the job until it's done I think.

Sorry to be a miseryguts, but to me it's a showcase HST to Fort William with an overcrowded 156 hard on its heels, and an overcrowded 170 in parallel to Inverness, not a great message...

 

[Highland37]

Nice that the WHL will see an HST but if I was Scotrail I'd give a wide berth to anything that draws attention to the state of the refurb programme. They need to keep their heads down and get on with the job until it's done I think.

Sorry to be a miseryguts, but to me it's a showcase HST to Fort William with an overcrowded 156 hard on its heels, and an overcrowded 170 in parallel to Inverness, not a great message...

I tend to agree. I don't think it will do much harm but the wider picture will be looked at that and it's not pretty.

What's the average number of refurbished sets in daily service?

 

[Rick1984]

On the bike front and mention of using TGS, could more sets be extend to include one so as not to lose seats?

 

[Highland37]

Why not just use the power cars? The delay to the programme is with the coaches. Adding more work in will only make it worse.

 

[hexagon789]

I tend to agree. I don't think it will do much harm but the wider picture will be looked at that and it's not pretty.

What's the average number of refurbished sets in daily service?

About 3-4 in average I'd say.

On the bike front and mention of using TGS, could more sets be extend to include one so as not to lose seats?

ScotRail were in discussions with Angel Trains about extending all the sets to 5-car.

Why not just use the power cars?

Because ScotRail seemingly don't like that. I think the only way more cycle capacity will be introduced is either using TGS vehicles or making space in trailer cars elsewhere.

 

[Clansman]

On the bike front and mention of using TGS, could more sets be extend to include one so as not to lose seats?

It's definitley possible, no question about it - Mk3s aren't exactly in short numbers these days.

On the seats issue, the only way a TGS could be used so as not to lose seats would be as a sixth coach - as on a five coach set you'd not only lose a few seats but also slightly increase the dwell times for that particular coach due to public doors being at one end only. And any TGS would presumably need power doors to allow public access without needing a gaurd. Perhaps it'd be easier to just convert a TSO.

 

[47271]

How's everyone finding the aircon on both the Classics and returbs? I know that it's been quite warm recently, but every Scotrail HST I've been on since the start of July has been at the very least stuffy. On the whole I'm finding them poorer on this front than 170s.

Maybe I've just been unlucky.

 

[hexagon789]

How's everyone finding the aircon on both the Classics and returbs? I know that it's been quite warm recently, but every Scotrail HST I've been on since the start of July has been at the very least stuffy. On the whole I'm finding them poorer on this front than 170s.

Maybe I've just been unlucky.

I know that having the dropplights open on slamdoor Mk3s used to affect the air con effectiveness, not sure if that's ever been addressed. The refurbs should be fine though without opening droplights.

 

[Highland37]

I know that having the dropplights open on slamdoor Mk3s used to affect the air con effectiveness, not sure if that's ever been addressed. The refurbs should be fine though without opening droplights.

I have noticed a thing. You often use phrases such as "should be fine". What are you basing that on?

 

[scotraildriver]

The air con is bring affected by the draughty gangways at the moment - the internal sliding doors are all locked open on the refurbs after a passenger claimed they were injured by one. Once the investigation is done and the doors back in use the air con will have a better chance.

 

[Northhighland]

How's everyone finding the aircon on both the Classics and returbs? I know that it's been quite warm recently, but every Scotrail HST I've been on since the start of July has been at the very least stuffy. On the whole I'm finding them poorer on this front than 170s.

Maybe I've just been unlucky.

Perhaps. Been on one classic and two 170’s over the recent hot weather on HML. Have to say didn’t notice a difference.

Was a difference in seating availability which To me trumps anything else.

 

[CJSwan]

Only 8 out of 18 HSTs out today. With a 158 covering a diagram which includes the 17:36 Edinburgh to Aberdeen (that’ll be cosy)... It’s really not great. Little wonder passengers and staff are becoming utterly scunnered at the situation.

 

[Clansman]

To be fair if any of the classics have been replaced with a double 158, then it's an upgrade

 

[CJSwan]

To be fair if any of the classics have been replaced with a double 158, then it's an upgrade

It’s a single 158

 

[Clansman]

It’s a single 158

Very cosy indeed then!

 

[scotraildriver]

Only 8 out of 18 HSTs out today. With a 158 covering a diagram which includes the 17:36 Edinburgh to Aberdeen (that’ll be cosy)... It’s really not great. Little wonder passengers and staff are becoming utterly scunnered at the situation.

Staff are certainly getting seriously fed up now. It's becoming abundantly clear to everyone that these trains are simply "done". The heavy rain over the last few days has highlighted almost every coach and power car leaks including refurbs. The roofs are just corroded away. Electrics tripping out constantly, toilet header tanks literally rusted through the list goes on. I don't know what the solution is as they are still great trains but having driven them for 18 months now I am convinced they are simply too far gone now.

 

[47271]

Yes, I've noticed a mass of substitutions since the weekend. The 1736 Edinburgh-Aberdeen was a 170 last night, luxury by comparison with today I suppose.

If rain combined with corrosion is the primary cause of cancellations then these poor old trains are being used in the wrong country.

 

[haggishunter]

Staff are certainly getting seriously fed up now. It's becoming abundantly clear to everyone that these trains are simply "done". The heavy rain over the last few days has highlighted almost every coach and power car leaks including refurbs. The roofs are just corroded away. Electrics tripping out constantly, toilet header tanks literally rusted through the list goes on. I don't know what the solution is as they are still great trains but having driven them for 18 months now I am convinced they are simply too far gone now.

I'm making an assumption here, former GWR mark 3s were picked because they were available sooner. Given the delays in refurbishment, LNER mark 3's are becoming available, given the difference in routes operated they ought to be in better condition. If the GWR Mk 3s are beyond it and that would appear to be at least part of the reason for the length of time refurbs are taking is there any potential get out clause for ScotRail with the leasing to go after the best mark 3s wherever they come from.

With modern electronic power equipment 3 phase to DC for train supply for Mark 4s in the power cars shouldn't be rocket science or space constrained?

There doesn't look to be any short solution to improve this situation - rolling stock introductions across the UK or both new and refurbished stock seem to be chaotic at the moment. Is it simply in the social media age there is more info out there or is there a fundamental problem by both the complexity of the UK rail system structure and loss of skills and experience?