ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[lachlan]

I think the whole reason the project was based on was taking revenue away from the 800 operators on a very profitable route for commuters and tourists alike.

2030 is the end for them isn’t it? The carbon neutral railway target.

800’s will be purchased I reckon but it is the variant that needs to be worked out. Tri-mode might need wires to Perth for example.

Yes IIRC they were only ever supposed to be a "stop gap" for 10 years at the longest, and some of them have now been in service for 3 years.

I believe 2035 is the carbon neutral target where everything will either be wired or operated with battery/hydrogen trains

 

[Devon Sunset]

The wheel lathe issue discussed previously is still the major barrier to availability.

A wheel lathe should have been installed at Haymarket instead of having to send them to other depots, madness. As for maintenance, I distinctly remember senior managers saying they could change the maintenance regime to do things in a more cost effective way. We can all see how that's worked out.

 

[43096]

A wheel lathe should have been installed at Haymarket instead of having to send them to other depots, madness. As for maintenance, I distinctly remember senior managers saying they could change the maintenance regime to do things in a more cost effective way. We can all see how that's worked out.

So they were going to change the maintenance regime on a fleet they knew nothing about?

I note that the ScotRail Engineering Director left last year (now at Hitachi…).

 

[scotraildriver]

A wheel lathe should have been installed at Haymarket instead of having to send them to other depots, madness. As for maintenance, I distinctly remember senior managers saying they could change the maintenance regime to do things in a more cost effective way. We can all see how that's worked out.

Inverness was chosen instead as at the time Scotrail had access to Craigentinny as well as Shields so made sense to have one up North. Unfortunately Hitachi have stopped that.

 

[43096]

Inverness was chosen instead as at the time Scotrail had access to Craigentinny as well as Shields so made sense to have one up North. Unfortunately Hitachi have stopped that.

It was known well before ScotRail got its HSTs that Craigentinny would be a Hitachi depot. Relying on access to a depot that was changing hands and fleets without long term guarantees was a pretty dumb move.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Just out of interest.
Is there plenty of space at Haymarket to add a wheel lathe?
A while back there was talk of it being congested (newly delivered sets being stored at Slateford comes to mind). Has Cadder eased that a bit?

 

[Falcon1200]

They’re nice inside and a pleasant comfortable journey can be had but that’s about it.

Rather than that being 'just about it', I would say those are major points in favour of HSTs !

 

[scotraildriver]

It was known well before ScotRail got its HSTs that Craigentinny would be a Hitachi depot. Relying on access to a depot that was changing hands and fleets without long term guarantees was a pretty dumb move.

I think we all know that the Abellio bid team and Transport Scotland were utterly clueless about HSTs. However constantly banging on about how "dumb" it was doesn't help, we are where we are and the people who are currently working on it know exactly what they are doing within the constants imposed on them.

 

[Scotrail84]

Just out of interest.
Is there plenty of space at Haymarket to add a wheel lathe?
A while back there was talk of it being congested (newly delivered sets being stored at Slateford comes to mind). Has Cadder eased that a bit?

Unless they converted one of the current roads through the shed to a wheel lathe there is absolutely no room for expansion at Haymarket. The tram line right outside the depot have put paid to that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2022 ==

I think we all know that the Abellio bid team and Transport Scotland were utterly clueless about HSTs. However constantly banging on about how "dumb" it was doesn't help, we are where we are and the people who are currently working on it know exactly what they are doing within the constants imposed on them.

The fuel calculations cock up was an absolute belter.

 

[Bikeman78]

They’ve ironed out a lot of issues since the start but the bulk of the issues these days are just as a result of the old technology. The trains are old, dirty, smelly, tired and past their best in all honesty. Most of the crews don’t like working them bar a few keen railway enthusiasts but that’s about it. They’re nice inside and a pleasant comfortable journey can be had but that’s about it.

I can’t see availability improving any going forward and any hope of running 18 daily sets after May is just pure fantasy. They need replaced with something more modern, not least for the environmental/ climate aspect.

Which bits are failing? There are plenty of 40-50 year old trains around the world that work fine. The diesel engines are only 15 years old so they should be fine.

 

[43096]

I think we all know that the Abellio bid team and Transport Scotland were utterly clueless about HSTs. However constantly banging on about how "dumb" it was doesn't help, we are where we are and the people who are currently working on it know exactly what they are doing within the constants imposed on them.

How about we add on the decision to de-scope the power car electronics upgrade (with its vastly improved WSP systems) from the refurbishment. Given the limited access to wheel lathe, it's also dumb to have dropped the electronics upgrade as it significantly extends wheelset life and reduces the need for tyre turning.

 

[Scotrail84]

Which bits are failing? There are plenty of 40-50 year old trains around the world that work fine. The diesel engines are only 15 years old so they should be fine.

None, he's talking rubbish. Availability is pretty good AIUI.

 

[Bikeman78]

Rather than that being 'just about it', I would say those are major points in favour of HSTs !

Well indeed. What would I prefer? A quiet mark 3 with working air con or a sweaty 158? Tricky one! Admittedly I like 170s and the air con on them is great.

 

[43096]

None, he's talking rubbish. Availability is pretty good AIUI.

Any sign of 43128 yet?!

3 years 4 months out of service now, I believe.

 

[Scotrail84]

Any sign of 43128 yet?!

3 years 4 months out of service now, I believe.

One power car. Generally speaking for a fleet that are so old they are doing really well.

 

[scotraildriver]

Any sign of 43128 yet?!

3 years 4 months out of service now, I believe.

It will need to be serviceable for the handback date. 133 came back this week after 2 and a half years out of use.

 

[irish_rail]

. Most of the crews don’t like working them bar a few keen railway enthusiasts but that’s about it. They’re nice inside and a pleasant comfortable journey can be had but that’s about it.

Is that so? Well as a crew member who does work them and talks to all the other crews who work them, id say enthusiasm doesn't come into it. About 80 percent like working them, with about 20 percent fearful of them for some reason.
Spacious, comfortable cab, all the power you need, redundancy in a second power car in the event of failure, excellent brakes (generally) , I mean what is not to like from a crew point of view? DMUs on the other hand, crampt tiny cab, poor in slippery conditions, sluggish, the list goes on. Again, those that like them tend to be the very same ones who are sh*t scared of operating HSTs for some reason.

 

[hexagon789]

Have the new (from May) diagrams been posted by anyone, so much has been discussed I've rather lost track since the diagram increase was mentioned, and I couldn't see anything in the Allocations sub-forum?

 

[Speed43125]

18 out of 26 seemed extremely poor fleet utilisation to me. Is this a closet admission that they they simply can't get the reliability that they were hoping for and are doing an awful lot of bet hedging? But 18 diagrams should surely be sufficient for all Aberdeen services and at least 50% of the HML? Somehow doubt the the Inverness Aberdeen will see many of them at this rate.

Worth noting obviously that only 25 sets are in existence these days....

 

[hexagon789]

Worth noting obviously that only 25 sets are in existence these days....

18 out of 25 is still only 72% availability.

 

[43096]

18 out of 25 is still only 72% availability.

It's only 69% availability for the power cars!

Historically the HST power car fleet has managed around 80-85% availability, so with 52 power cars they should be able to get 21 sets into service.

 

[47827]

18 out of 25 is still only 72% availability.

Correct. I would allow for a set or two to be in the works for big exam or other major work though looking at how that stock needs to be looked after these days leaving 23 or 24 in Scotland. If 2 sets are on maintenance/repair on a typical week then the post that has just popped in I'd agree with and say either 21 sets diagrammed (or 20 plus a hot standby at Inverness, Aberdeen or further south) is as optimistic as should be considered. But there should also be consideration of what diagram or trains should be first for unit substitutes if less sets than booked can be turned out and it's known in advance.

 

[mcmad]

Thats the planned availability too. I've heard that actual availability has been -5 most of the week so only 13 out of 25 available or 50%

 

[hexagon789]

It's only 69% availability for the power cars!

Historically the HST power car fleet has managed around 80-85% availability, so with 52 power cars they should be able to get 21 sets into service.

Wasn't the original plan for 22 diagrams out of 26 sets? Or is my memory being rather optimistic?

Correct. I would allow for a set or two to be in the works for big exam or other major work though looking at how that stock needs to be looked after these days leaving 23 or 24 in Scotland. If 2 sets are on maintenance/repair on a typical week then the post that has just popped in I'd agree with and say either 21 sets diagrammed (or 20 plus a hot standby at Inverness, Aberdeen or further south) is as optimistic as should be considered. But there should also be consideration of what diagram or trains should be first for unit substitutes if less sets than booked can be turned out and it's known in advance.

21 out of 25 seems not unreasonable.

Thats the planned availability too. I've heard that actual availability has been -5 most of the week so only 13 out of 25 available or 50%

Sometimes not even a dozen from what I recall, really given the redundancy afforded by two power cars and the not particularly onerous schedules it should be possible to have more sets out surely?

 

[John Bishop]

None, he's talking rubbish. Availability is pretty good AIUI.

Yeah you may need to revise that statement. Availability has been horrendous last few weeks. Down to -6 at some points.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2022 ==

Is that so? Well as a crew member who does work them and talks to all the other crews who work them, id say enthusiasm doesn't come into it. About 80 percent like working them, with about 20 percent fearful of them for some reason.
Spacious, comfortable cab, all the power you need, redundancy in a second power car in the event of failure, excellent brakes (generally) , I mean what is not to like from a crew point of view? DMUs on the other hand, crampt tiny cab, poor in slippery conditions, sluggish, the list goes on. Again, those that like them tend to be the very same ones who are sh*t scared of operating HSTs for some reason.

Do you work for Scotrail? Seeing your location as Plymouth and your response, to be clear I’m talking about Scotrail only as I’ve no idea what goes on at GWR.

 

[irish_rail]

Yeah you may need to revise that statement. Availability has been horrendous last few weeks. Down to -6 at some points.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2022 ==


Do you work for Scotrail? Seeing your location as Plymouth and your response, to be clear I’m talking about Scotrail only as I’ve no idea what goes on at GWR.

Apologies I thought you were referring to the castle sets.
However , I would argue that there is maybe a fear factor amongst scotrail crews of the big scary locomotives??? Bit more confidence down here as we have been driving them for yonks.

 

[sonic2009]

Are the GWR sets moving in September? Seen rumours going around. So I thought I'd ask here.

 

[43096]

Are the GWR sets moving in September? Seen rumours going around. So I thought I'd ask here.

Moving where? If you mean to ScotRail. No.

 

[43 302]

Are the GWR sets moving in September? Seen rumours going around. So I thought I'd ask here.

Yes they will be moving. Moving whilst in passenger service with GWR that is.

 

[geoffk]

Yes they will be moving. Moving whilst in passenger service with GWR that is.

There's also a rumour here in Devon that the GWR Castles will be going to Scotrail, replaced by 5-car IETs and that 387s will take over Padd - Cardiff. But it might be just that - a rumour.