ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[chiltern trev]

43012/032/143/146/163/168/169/183 in works
43021/037/126/132/135/179 on test
43033/036/134/148 released from works
43127/140/145/149 taken off lease

Any of these at Crewe?

On Tuesday 26 March we were heading south on the M6 between Carlisle and Penrith at about 11.00 and my wife said two locos (blue one at each end) and 4 coaches silver went north on the WCML. realtraintimes showed a Crewe C S > Carstairs working for that time followed by a return 1 hour later.

 

[ScottDarg]

Any of these at Crewe?

On Tuesday 26 March we were heading south on the M6 between Carlisle and Penrith at about 11.00 and my wife said two locos (blue one at each end) and 4 coaches silver went north on the WCML. realtraintimes showed a Crewe C S > Carstairs working for that time followed by a return 1 hour later.

That was a TPE training run I believe - 2 x 68s and the pretendolino coaches

https://flic.kr/p/25w318s (not my pic)

 

[43096]

43127/145 are now at Brush and 43146 is in the "Inter7City" livery - visible outside Brush this afternoon.

 

[D365]

There was a (complete?) ScotRail HST stabled within the Doncaster works around Thursday last week. Off the top of my head the power car at the north end was in the 4303x range.

 

[83G/84D]

A right shame that will be

Agree been travelling on them since 1981, although they are showing their age now they are still better than an lET in my opinion.

 

[najaB]

A right shame that will be

What, a shame that 40 year old trains are being replaced by something better and more modern? I love HSTs but they are getting on a bit and deserve an easy life in retirement, away from frontline service where we can continue to enjoy them.

 

[Paul Kerr]

What, a shame that 40 year old trains are being replaced by something better and more modern? I love HSTs but they are getting on a bit and deserve an easy life in retirement, away from frontline service where we can continue to enjoy them.

Better? The jury is very much still out on that one for me. Let's see what they're like on diesel power in a few years once engine components start to wear and the noise and vibration sets in. The big issue I have with the IETs (yet again with a new design of British train) is they have cut cost by going for underfloor engines. Time and time again we do this and after a few years the drone and vibration is enough to drive anyone to distraction. Lets see how they perform being worked hard tackling the 1 in 60 over Slochd or the the twisting gradients in Cornwall. Ultimately underfloor engines are a compromise and time and again we have seen how ultimately the HST ends up being more popular than the shiny modern diesel multiple units that replace them (Voyagers or Adelantes for example). The HST may be getting on in years but I would travel in a 40 year old train with hauled stock over a new DMU (or glorified DMU like the IET) any time. The IETs may well prove me wrong, and I would be happy to be proved wrong, but based on past history I'm not holding my breath...

 

[hexagon789]

What, a shame that 40 year old trains are being replaced by something better and more modern? I love HSTs but they are getting on a bit and deserve an easy life in retirement, away from frontline service where we can continue to enjoy them.

A shame because so far everything that has replaced them has been inferior in some way.

 

[hexagon789]

Better? The jury is very much still out on that one for me. Let's see what they're like on diesel power in a few years once engine components start to wear and the noise and vibration sets in. The big issue I have with the IETs (yet again with a new design of British train) is they have cut cost by going for underfloor engines. Time and time again we do this and after a few years the drone and vibration is enough to drive anyone to distraction. Lets see how they perform being worked hard tackling the 1 in 60 over Slochd or the the twisting gradients in Cornwall. Ultimately underfloor engines are a compromise and time and again we have seen how ultimately the HST ends up being more popular than the shiny modern diesel multiple units that replace them (Voyagers or Adelantes for example). The HST may be getting on in years but I would travel in a 40 year old train with hauled stock over a new DMU (or glorified DMU like the IET) any time. The IETs may well prove me wrong, and I would be happy to be proved wrong, but based on past history I'm not holding my breath...

I definitely agree with you, I would rather in a 40 year old HST. Nothing that has succeeded them has bettered them in terms of comfort.

 

[najaB]

The big issue I have with the IETs (yet again with a new design of British train) is they have cut cost by going for underfloor engines.

It isn't a cost-cutting exercise. Two big engines cost less than six small ones. And trailer coaches are a lot easier to build and cheaper than powered ones. However distributed power means that a single engine failure has less of an impact, and also makes it easier to have more wheels powered which helps with performance.

 

[hexagon789]

It isn't a cost-cutting exercise. Two big engines cost less than six small ones. And trailer coaches are a lot easier to build and cheaper than powered ones. However distributed power means that a single engine failure has less of an impact, and also makes it easier to have more wheels powered which helps with performance.

An HST in 2+4 or 2+5 will still leave an IEP for dead though and it's far more comfortable, and that's what matters in my opinion. After they've been retired then we can have some ghastly bi-modes (shudder).

 

[najaB]

An HST in 2+4 or 2+5 will still leave an IEP for dead though ....

And leave a whole bunch of people waiting on the platform while it's at it.

 

[hexagon789]

And leave a whole bunch of people waiting on the platform while it's at it.

They could easily be lengthened to 2+6.

 

[43025 Exeter]

There was a (complete?) ScotRail HST stabled within the Doncaster works around Thursday last week. Off the top of my head the power car at the north end was in the 4303x range.

You saw 43036, it arrived with 43134. 43143 and 43146 may be released starting around 3 Apr.

Trailer Cars are positioned like this:
41024, 41032, 41038, 41094, 41122, 42004, 42007, 42019, 42034, 42045, 42046, 42055, 42183, 42184, 42252, 42292, 42343, 42559, 42561, 42562, 42567, 42571 Wabtec Doncaster

 

[najaB]

They could easily be lengthened to 2+6.

Cutting into the performance advantage significantly.

 

[hexagon789]

Cutting into the performance advantage significantly.

It'll still out accelerate a 170 at 2+6 and aren't there going to be two 2+6 sets at some point anyway?

 

[najaB]

It'll still out accelerate a 170 at 2+6 and aren't there going to be two 2+6 sets at some point anyway?

But the comparison was between a Class 800 and a HST.

 

[hexagon789]

But the comparison was IET to HST.

Well even a 2+9 HST will outdo one of those things.

 

[najaB]

Well even a 2+9 HST will outdo one of those things.

On 125mph non-electrified track, yes. There's not much of that in Scotland though, is there?

 

[hexagon789]

On 125mph non-electrified track, yes. There's not much of that in Scotland though, is there?

On 100 mph non-electrified track as well.

 

[najaB]

On 100 mph non-electrified track as well.

Class 800s reach 100mph quite readily - the difference between a five car Class 800 and a five car HST is going to be a few seconds either way.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 800s reach 100mph quite readily - the difference between a five car Class 800 and a five car HST is going to be a few seconds either way.

On diesel mode I sincerely doubt it. A 2+5 HST will leave an IEP for dust.

 

[gingertom]

On diesel mode I sincerely doubt it. A 2+5 HST will leave an IEP for dust.

There's 1000 bhp of a difference.

 

[hexagon789]

There's 1000 bhp of a difference.

A 5-car Class 800 has a power-at-rail of 1,920hp.

Two HST power cars give 3,540 hp at rail.

A 5-car 800 weighs 250.5 tonnes
A 2+5 HST weighs approx 312 tonnes
A 2+8 HST weighs 408 tonnes.

That gives power-to-weight ratios of 7.66 (800); 11.34 (2+5 HST) and 8.68 (2+8 HST) hp per tonne. Furthermore while an IEP will out accelerate an HST to 30 mph in Diesel mode, an HST will match it from 30-60 and out accelerate it above 60 mph.

 

[JohnR]

Class 800s reach 100mph quite readily - the difference between a five car Class 800 and a five car HST is going to be a few seconds either way.

Depends if you are talking in diesel mode or electric. In diesel mode, a 2+8 HST will reach 100mph before the bi-mode running on diesel power.

 

[gingertom]

A 5-car Class 800 has a power-at-rail of 1,920hp.

Two HST power cars give 3,540 hp at rail.

A 5-car 800 weighs 250.5 tonnes
A 2+5 HST weighs approx 312 tonnes
A 2+8 HST weighs 408 tonnes.

That gives power-to-weight ratios of 7.66 (800); 11.34 (2+5 HST) and 8.68 (2+8 HST) hp per tonne. Furthermore while an IEP will out accelerate an HST to 30 mph in Diesel mode, an HST will match it from 30-60 and out accelerate it above 60 mph.

Thanks for doing the sums. I think we have much to look forward to

 

[hexagon789]

Depends if you are talking in diesel mode or electric. In diesel mode, a 2+8 HST will reach 100mph before the bi-mode running on diesel power.

As the HST is a diesel train consider the fair comparison to be against an IEP on diesel mode. On electric mode the four comparison would be with an InterCity 225.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for doing the sums. I think we have much to look forward to

I hope we do, when we eventually get them that is!

 

[gingertom]

I hope we do, when we eventually get them that is!

did rough calcualtion of the 802/AT300 5-car to be approx 2400 BHP at the rail. Better but still won't take on an HST and win.

 

[hexagon789]

did rough calcualtion of the 802/AT300 5-car to be approx 2400 BHP at the rail. Better but still won't take on an HST and win.

No it won't, it might at least manage 125 though