ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

Genuinely think the HST will be welcomed with open arms. The public already like the LNER versions much better than the 170 the ScotRail refurb should be a lot better than the LNER sets.

Agree reliability is the area needing most attention, evidently the GWT maintenance teams were on top of the situation no reason why Scitrail staff cannot be equally as effective given the right training.

There is an argument around why we are investing in 40 year old trains, however that is passed. For me the biggest danger to the public acceptance of the programme is Wabtec and the very late delivery of the sets. Starting to look like this programme is totally out of any control.

Only issue with the Scotrail sets over the LNER HST that runs as the Highland Chieftain, is that the 1st class passengers won't have the full cooked meals that LNER offer. Other than that, I think (particularly) the 1st CLass offer will be far, far superior to what Scotrail currently offer & should, hopefully, attract more passengers (the business market is there to be expanded - better/quicker and earlier/later trains needed here too).

 

[Indigo Soup]

We need to get away from the '40 Year old cast offs' argument - the trains are quite different to when they were introduced (modern engines, for one thing) and surely any major reliability issues will have been sorted by now! A fully refurbished (to a high standard) HST is, IMHO, more than the equal of anything modern & self propelled.

The 'English cast-offs' argument might not be valid, given the modernisation, but it's very important. There's a strong public perception that Scotland is at the back of the queue for any improvements, and refurbished 40-year old trains reinforce it. That the refurbishment is taking longer and costing more is even worse, as clearly that shows that not only are they English cast-offs, but they're worn-out too!

Nonsense of course, but popular nonsense.

 

[TheMuttley]

Only thing that looks to be going out of control is the rumour and b******* being posted on the internet. Same applies to the 769 programme.

Just to clarify, for my part, I certainly wasn't trying to perpetuate such rumours in my reply to the original comment. However, my limited experience of such things is that when a project is announced on a given timeframe, so publicly, and fails to materialise, in the absence of any meaningful "official" commentary or explanation, a vacuum is created; as they say, nature abhors a vacuum!

 

[Northhighland]

Only thing that looks to be going out of control are the rumours being posted on the internet. Same applies to the 769 programme.

From a company management perspective, I’m actually quite impressed at how few leaks there have been from within the organisation.

There should be no need for leaks. Why not just tell the public what is going on since they are paying for the work? We were told some of the sets would be in service by now they aren’t. The first one isn’t complete. So by any reckoning the programme of work is in the public’s mind “at large”.

Poor communication destroys the image of a project. Rail industry never seems to learn that.

 

[Goldromans]

Found this on RTT, any chance of this being the first refurbished coaches heading up?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91338/2018/07/31/advanced

 

[InOban]

I'm sure Alex H did say by the end of July, but that's cutting it fine... We'll spotted.

 

[nixer10]

I think he said there would at least one in service in July.

 

[InOban]

Well, since it's due in Craigentinny just before 5, it could be pressed into service on the 17.36 to Aberdeen and back....

But I think we'll have a press junket first.

 

[Northhighland]

Only issue with the Scotrail sets over the LNER HST that runs as the Highland Chieftain, is that the 1st class passengers won't have the full cooked meals that LNER offer. Other than that, I think (particularly) the 1st CLass offer will be far, far superior to what Scotrail currently offer & should, hopefully, attract more passengers (the business market is there to be expanded - better/quicker and earlier/later trains needed here too).

It will be interesting to see how they market and rice the first class. At present it is simply not worth the money on the 170, little difference over standard, in fact the wee enclosure is very cramped not a nice experience, certainly not worth the premium If they offer regular traveller discount on first then it could be very popular.

Hope they have the implementation of the service thought through this is a chance to really push and grow rail travel to Inverness and Aberdeen.

 

[mullac30]

The set seems to be finished and is in its complete formation with power cars. Delivery is looking likely. Image from Richard Clinnick Twiiter

 

[TheMuttley]

Good to see! So, realistically, how soon will it be before we see one of them in service? I'm assuming there's still a significant amount of training (which presumably can start in earnest, now that the first "real" rake has arrived), familiarisation and perhaps some final testing?

 

[_toommm_]

The only thing I don't like is the way the yellow front is done on them - I much prefer the yellow stripe at the bottom, akin to the way XC and GWR do it, as opposed to this and the old FGW option. Otherwise, they look quite smart and it wouldn't surprise me if some passengers thought they were a new train!

 

[47271]

Newtonmore & Dalwhinnie (South) will probably just be worked by 'one door operation', same as Beauly & Conon Bridge stations on the North line. I don't think the passenger numbers (particularly at Dalwhinnie) would justify the cost of extending the platforms.
A bigger issue I think is the platforms at Dunkeld & Birnam - they are ridiculously low & if the plan to run (temporarily) with slam door HSTs is happening, then access to/from the train will be a real issue (I know, I've tried it....).

As you say, the issue at Dunkeld is platform height rather than length. The station comfortably holds the sleeper and the one a week LNER HST on a Sunday morning, both of which are slammers as it stands, but from experience boarding a mk3 at this station isn't any more challenging than getting on any other train. P1 is lower still at the end furthest from the station building so the issue is more that the longer the HST set, the more difficult it is to get on or off, I think that's what you're saying?

Nothing will happen with the Dunkeld platforms until they've made up their minds about A9 dualling plans past the station and start work on those, so we'll need to keep heaving on and off for a while yet.

 

[InOban]

Today's delivery seems as delayed as the project. Still hasn't left.

 

[connormill]

So with the first ScotRail HST rakes now arrived at Craigentinny are we any closer to having a date/time for the first passenger service? I think I'm being a bit optimistic to hope for a HST on my trip from Edinburgh to Aberdeen this weekend

Surely training must be coming to an end/already ended now given they took deliver of a load of 43's in Feb

EDIT: Wildly optimistic! if RTT is correct, I'll be on a 158 to Aberdeen. Never mind though, 221 Voyager on the return XC journey

 

[InOban]

Delivery run cancelled.

 

[marks87]

So with the first ScotRail HST rakes now arrived at Craigentinny are we any closer to having a date/time for the first passenger service? I think I'm being a bit optimistic to hope for a HST on my trip from Edinburgh to Aberdeen this weekend

Surely training must be coming to an end/already ended now given they took deliver of a load of 43's in Feb

EDIT: Wildly optimistic! if RTT is correct, I'll be on a 158 to Aberdeen. Never mind though, 221 Voyager on the return XC journey

RTT shows 158 for 170s; you'll almost certainly be on the latter.

 

[connormill]

RTT shows 158 for 170s; you'll almost certainly be on the latter.

Didn't realise RTT had that quirk.

A 170 was what I was expecting to be honest, never seen anything else run that route as a SR service.

Ideally I would have got a LNER HST with cheap 1st upgrade but the times didn't fit

 

[ainsworth74]

Didn't realise RTT had that quirk.

Quick note for future reference. RTT shows what's known as the timing load not the booked traction. Now, on some operators, that will usually tell you what will run a service. For example LNER if a timing load is HST then it's almost certain to be an HST whereas if it's an Electric Locomotive trailing 410 tonnes then it's almost certain to be a 225. But on most the timing load really doesn't tell you much as many timing loads will double for many types of train. Or, alternatively, some services may be timed for the lowest common denominator. For example a lot of Northern services are timed for 14x Pacers but may usually be booked for Sprinters but it means that if a Pacer turns up the service won't end up late.

Basically, most of the time, you can't use RTT to tell you what is booked

 

[delt1c]

The 'English cast-offs' argument might not be valid, given the modernisation, but it's very important. There's a strong public perception that Scotland is at the back of the queue for any improvements, and refurbished 40-year old trains reinforce it. That the refurbishment is taking longer and costing more is even worse, as clearly that shows that not only are they English cast-offs, but they're worn-out too!

Nonsense of course, but popular nonsense.

But they are being done in England and refurbishment is being delayed in England.

 

[Northhighland]

But they are being done in England and refurbishment is being delayed in England.

It must be conspiracy. GWR and X country sets will be getting priority. England putting SCOTLAND down again.

 

[kje7812]

Quick note for future reference. RTT shows what's known as the timing load not the booked traction. Now, on some operators, that will usually tell you what will run a service. For example LNER if a timing load is HST then it's almost certain to be an HST whereas if it's an Electric Locomotive trailing 410 tonnes then it's almost certain to be a 225. But on most the timing load really doesn't tell you much as many timing loads will double for many types of train. Or, alternatively, some services may be timed for the lowest common denominator. For example a lot of Northern services are timed for 14x Pacers but may usually be booked for Sprinters but it means that if a Pacer turns up the service won't end up late.

Basically, most of the time, you can't use RTT to tell you what is booked

Indeed, for example Chiltern's services to/from Kidderminster are all 'booked' as 158s, when of course they will be either 68+Mark 3s or 168s and Chiltern don't even have 158s!

 

[Geoff DC]

It must be conspiracy. GWR and X country sets will be getting priority. England putting SCOTLAND down again.

The GWR GTI sets are being used mainly in Cornwall not England (& we get more cast offs than most) but I have to say the 1st set is like a brand new train to most people & although only std class - for 2+hr journeys much better than the 3rd world stock we have become accustomed to

 

[jopsuk]

Weren't 150s deployed to Cornwall (noting that Cornish nationalism is a pursuit of a tiny minority, Cornwall is very much an English County) from new? I guess the 153s were a cascade as such?

 

[route101]

It must be conspiracy. GWR and X country sets will be getting priority. England putting SCOTLAND down again.

So with the first ScotRail HST rakes now arrived at Craigentinny are we any closer to having a date/time for the first passenger service? I think I'm being a bit optimistic to hope for a HST on my trip from Edinburgh to Aberdeen this weekend

Surely training must be coming to an end/already ended now given they took deliver of a load of 43's in Feb

EDIT: Wildly optimistic! if RTT is correct, I'll be on a 158 to Aberdeen. Never mind though, 221 Voyager on the return XC journey

The 1740 glasgow to aberdeen was a 4 car 158 today , the front two being ex alphaline seats . I believe an afternoon Edinburgh to Aberdeen is a single 158 .

 

[route101]

It will be interesting to see how they market and rice the first class. At present it is simply not worth the money on the 170, little difference over standard, in fact the wee enclosure is very cramped not a nice experience, certainly not worth the premium If they offer regular traveller discount on first then it could be very popular.

Hope they have the implementation of the service thought through this is a chance to really push and grow rail travel to Inverness and Aberdeen.

Only ever used scotrail first class on advances to Newcastle . Not bad , do they pad the walls ? it seems quieter . Certainly wouldnt pay much for it though , Wonder on the HSTs there will be cold or hot food offered.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Delivery run cancelled.

I was at Doncaster and the rake that was apparently visible yesterday in the yard, was nowhere to be seen.

https://twitter.com/ambassador_suit/status/1023973813002924033

Could they have snuck it up overnight for some reason? Is there space at Wabtec to hide an entire HST set?

 

[InOban]

We need some spies at Craigentinny.

 

[Highlandspring]

It’s not in Scotland yet.

 

[Callum Waring]

In interest, could a full HST set fit into storage at Wabtech? If it can’t then it must be on the move, meaning that it could be running as early as tomorrow. A tad ambitious but you never know.