ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

Indeed. The legroom is no worse than a 170 so if it means a seat I think the punters will like it even if its temporary. We'll need some more TGS coaches though I think we only have 2 at the moment.

Wonder how this will work re. Conductor training - Scotrail won't be using the TGS coaches on the refurbished sets at all...Guards compartment (or cupboard...) by the buffet. Wonder if the buffet area on the GWR unrefurbished stock will be used? It has to be, in IMHO...

 

[timj]

Sshhh... don’t tell anyone but I’ve heard a whisper that the refurbished set will enter public service on the 8th of October.

Hehe - great stuff!

 

[GrimShady]

Any reason are Edinburgh - Inverness/Aberdeen being upgraded first?

 

[jopsuk]

because the trains will be based at Haymarket- better to have diagrams that start/finish near the depot.

 

[GrimShady]

because the trains will be based at Haymarket- better to have diagrams that start/finish near the depot.

Cheers

 

[CC 72100]

Wonder how this will work re. Conductor training - Scotrail won't be using the TGS coaches on the refurbished sets at all...Guards compartment (or cupboard...) by the buffet. Wonder if the buffet area on the GWR unrefurbished stock will be used? It has to be, in IMHO...

It will require some electrical works if so - on the GWR sets, there are only RA interface switches (the equipment that ensures buzzers pressed at a CDL panel (other other buzzer-fitted location) by the Guard are heard in the power car) are located in the TGS. No RA interface switch = no D/G buzzer communication. The RA interface switch in the buffet has been long disconnected.

 

[jingsmonty]

because the trains will be based at Haymarket- better to have diagrams that start/finish near the depot.

They will also be bases at Inverness as well, I believe...although some infrastructure work will be required

 

[gingertom]

wondering if SR will operate any 2+5 slam door sets. The extra capacity would be most welcome.

 

[AndrewE]

Has been explained upthread:

There’s no ‘just in case’ about it. It has been confirmed internally that ScotRail will be operating slam door HST sets.

Suggests they must have decided they need to start running the extra Dundee and Cumbernauld services in December this year and slam door stock is the only way to make that work. It’s a risky tactic though to bring in unrefurbished stock.

 

[jingsmonty]

wondering if SR will operate any 2+5 slam door sets. The extra capacity would be most welcome.

I don't think Glasgow Queen St can cope with 2+5 HST sets until the station rebuilding is finished. Inverness can only fit a 2+5 set on Platforms 1 & 2 (platforms 3 & 4 can fit a 2+4, but not a 2+5 set). Can see Scotrail sticking with 2+4 in the meantime...

 

[gingertom]

I don't think Glasgow Queen St can cope with 2+5 HST sets until the station rebuilding is finished. Inverness can only fit a 2+5 set on Platforms 1 & 2 (platforms 3 & 4 can fit a 2+4, but not a 2+5 set). Can see Scotrail sticking with 2+4 in the meantime...

5@23m and 2@18m adds up to less than a 7-car 380/385 so a 2+5 will fit Glasgow Queen Street.

 

[gsnedders]

I don't think Glasgow Queen St can cope with 2+5 HST sets until the station rebuilding is finished. Inverness can only fit a 2+5 set on Platforms 1 & 2 (platforms 3 & 4 can fit a 2+4, but not a 2+5 set). Can see Scotrail sticking with 2+4 in the meantime...

Remember the power cars are short, a 2+5 set is only 151m. They can fit at GLQ on every platform except 1 (obviously!) and 5.

 

[kje7812]

Wasn't one issue that Haymarket depot needed work before it could accommodated 2+5 sets? Has the work finished or is it still ongoing?

 

[scotraildriver]

Construction on going.

 

[jingsmonty]

Remember the power cars are short, a 2+5 set is only 151m. They can fit at GLQ on every platform except 1 (obviously!) and 5.

There's an article in a railway mag (can't remember which one) where a Scotrail manager involved with the HST project says exactly that there are restrictions on 2+5 HSTs in Glasgow Queen St until the platform extension work is completed. A 2+5 HST still longer than a 6 car DMU.

Also, Inverness can't accomodate a 2+5 HST in platforms 3+4, only in platforms 1+2 (& platform 1 usually has the LNER HST, soon to be Azuma stabled overnight). Also, the Caledonian sleeper uses platform 2. So, totally impractical.

This could be a major issue if a 2+5 HST rurns up on a 2+4 diagram....

 

[Nomad8459]

Interesting discussions, glad to see this idea happen, does seem that 6 coach sets would be welcome for some trains but can understand the 2+5 idea, just remembering my younger days when the Aberdeen and Inverness services would be 47 + 6 MK2 - four does seem short to me but you have mentioned above some reasons why - they will be pretty fast HSTs with 4 coaches

 

[gsnedders]

There's an article in a railway mag (can't remember which one) where a Scotrail manager involved with the HST project says exactly that there are restrictions on 2+5 HSTs in Glasgow Queen St until the platform extension work is completed. A 2+5 HST still longer than a 6 car DMU.

Also, Inverness can't accomodate a 2+5 HST in platforms 3+4, only in platforms 1+2 (& platform 1 usually has the LNER HST, soon to be Azuma stabled overnight). Also, the Caledonian sleeper uses platform 2. So, totally impractical.

This could be a major issue if a 2+5 HST rurns up on a 2+4 diagram....

Longer than a 6 car DMU, yes, but remember there are 7 car EMUs running now.

 

[BRX]

Also, Inverness can't accomodate a 2+5 HST in platforms 3+4, only in platforms 1+2 (& platform 1 usually has the LNER HST, soon to be Azuma stabled overnight). Also, the Caledonian sleeper uses platform 2. So, totally impractical.

Does the sleeper sit in the platform all day, these days?
The LNER HST is away 8am to 8pm, so surely it must be possible to use p1&2 for other services for most of the day.

 

[jingsmonty]

Longer than a 6 car DMU, yes, but remember there are 7 car EMUs running now.

7 car EMUs with Selective door opening....

 

[jingsmonty]

Does the sleeper sit in the platform all day, these days?
The LNER HST is away 8am to 8pm, so surely it must be possible to use p1&2 for other services for most of the day.

Sleeper sits for a good part of the day in P2, which is sonething that could be looked at, I'm sure. P1 is used sporadically during the day, but is not available for about 12hrs overnight. So there's a period of time where a 2+5 HST couldn't actually arrive in Inverness....ideally, platforms 3+4 need lengthening, but hard to see how this would be possible. I did hear rumours some time ago about a 'Platform 0', where the current pick up/drop off point is, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside

 

[gsnedders]

7 car EMUs with Selective door opening....

In Queen Street? No, the whole thing fits on platforms 3, 4, and 7. I frequently in the past month have got on in the front door, off the Queen Street platform. The 8 car 365s equally fit on the same platforms, all doors open.

 

[BRX]

Sleeper sits for a good part of the day in P2, which is sonething that could be looked at, I'm sure. P1 is used sporadically during the day, but is not available for about 12hrs overnight. So there's a period of time where a 2+5 HST couldn't actually arrive in Inverness....ideally, platforms 3+4 need lengthening, but hard to see how this would be possible. I did hear rumours some time ago about a 'Platform 0', where the current pick up/drop off point is, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside

Bit annoying that all that land that used to contain sidings etc got turned into supermarket/carpark when it could in the future have been quite handy to have to create additional full length platforms.

 

[Nomad8459]

Bit annoying that all that land that used to contain sidings etc got turned into supermarket/carpark when it could in the future have been quite handy to have to create additional full length platforms.

All too quickly have they axed things at times, Manchester Victoria to 4 platforms, could well use 6 now - just one example! arghhhh

 

[Aictos]

Sleeper sits for a good part of the day in P2, which is sonething that could be looked at, I'm sure.

You sure about that?

Bearing in mind it's been some time since I've been to Inverness but RTT states that the following is booked to happen on a typical weekday:

1S25 Caledonian Sleeper arrives Platform 1 at 08:41

5S25 Caledonian Sleeper departs Platform 1 at 09:08
5S25 Caledonian Sleeper arrives Inverness Motorail Sdg via Inverness TMD at 11:01

5M16 Caledonian Sleeper departs Inverness Motorail Sdg at 18:30
5M16 Caledonian Sleeper arrives Platform 2 at 18:41

1M16 Caledonian Sleeper departs Platform 2 at 20:45

So there shouldn't be any reason for it to be hogging a platform during the day so I can't see why there should be any issues in any case in the current timetable only 4 services (Scotrail btw) are booked to use Platforms 1 and 2 between 09:15 and 18:15 so is very much underused but perfect for these HSTs of Scotrail.

 

[BRX]

arghhhh

This is exactly what I think at almost any railway station with a supermarket built right up to the back of the platform on a piece of land that was clearly previously part of the station or sidings.

 

[JohnMcL7]

You sure about that?

So there shouldn't be any reason for it to be hogging a platform during the day so I can't see why there should be any issues in any case in the current timetable only 4 services (Scotrail btw) are booked to use Platforms 1 and 2 between 09:15 and 18:15 so is very much underused but perfect for these HSTs of Scotrail.

It's definitely sitting there a good part of the day, I often see it when passing - this picture was taken around three weeks ago early afternoon:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Trains/i-JQqB9Gg/0/691b4192/L/DSC00548-L.jpg

It looked like the carriages were being cleaned.

I assume they move it out of the way when needed as I think that's the platform the Royal Scotman or railtours use?

This is exactly what I think at almost any railway station with a supermarket built right up to the back of the platform on a piece of land that was clearly previously part of the station or sidings.

Absolutely, it's depressing when you see what's left compared to the station in its prime:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Trains/i-vBTnScB/0/532f6560/L/20180131_141931-L.jpg

The drop off area is pretty between the cars, coaches and deliveries so I can't see them ever being able to build into there.

 

[timj]

Sshhh... don’t tell anyone but I’ve heard a whisper that the refurbished set will enter public service on the 8th of October.

Can't see anything on RTT - all services seem to be timed for class 158 still. Perhaps it won't be shown as HST in RTT until December or whenever full commencement statrts?

 

[jingsmonty]

In Queen Street? No, the whole thing fits on platforms 3, 4, and 7. I frequently in the past month have got on in the front door, off the Queen Street platform. The 8 car 365s equally fit on the same platforms, all doors open.

I'm just going by what the Scotrail Manager said as justification for not having a full 2+5 fleet - you probably know who it is if you've read the article. I'm assuming that a 7 car EMU doesn't fit onto platforms 2, 5 + 6 then (obviously platform 1 as well)?

If 2+5 HST sets run just now, along with 7 car EMUs, would that not cause capacity problems at Queen St?

Any idea when the platform lengthening work is due to be completed? I've lost track of that one!

 

[PHILIPE]

Can't see anything on RTT - all services seem to be timed for class 158 still. Perhaps it won't be shown as HST in RTT until December or whenever full commencement statrts?

Remember what RTT shows is the timing Load and not what is diagrammed. This has to be pointed out every week to somebody or other. Anything that keep to these timings can be diagrammed. As the project is still in it's infancy stage they won't be changed and, it is possible, that a set of timings are not even in the system to be able to select them.

 

[jingsmonty]

You sure about that?

Bearing in mind it's been some time since I've been to Inverness but RTT states that the following is booked to happen on a typical weekday:

1S25 Caledonian Sleeper arrives Platform 1 at 08:41

5S25 Caledonian Sleeper departs Platform 1 at 09:08
5S25 Caledonian Sleeper arrives Inverness Motorail Sdg via Inverness TMD at 11:01

5M16 Caledonian Sleeper departs Inverness Motorail Sdg at 18:30
5M16 Caledonian Sleeper arrives Platform 2 at 18:41

1M16 Caledonian Sleeper departs Platform 2 at 20:45

So there shouldn't be any reason for it to be hogging a platform during the day so I can't see why there should be any issues in any case in the current timetable only 4 services (Scotrail btw) are booked to use Platforms 1 and 2 between 09:15 and 18:15 so is very much underused but perfect for these HSTs of Scotrail.

Agreed, but what about the evening arrivals? There is nowhere near enough space in Inverness for efficient stabling of a full HST fleet (the 2+4 training train only just fits in out the back of the CMD on 1 of the 3 roads there). This, I think, was the rationale behind a new depot at Elgin, which seems to have disappeared off the radar.

I don't know much about the logistics of the sleeper train, but I know it's normal stabling point out the back of the carriage maintenance depot is where the HST training train is stored & if the HST needs to make a run, it can't get out if the sleeper is stabled beside it (it fouls the exit points) - the 3 stabling roads are not that long. The training train only uses tbe middle one, as it would foul the points if it used either of the other 2.