ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[BRX]

The sleeper, when it still had a load of motorial vans on the front, used to start out with the locos well out beyond the signals.

Those are on p1/2 not 3/4 though.

 

[jingsmonty]

So you say but as research and decisions show, passengers do prefer a less noisy and vibrating environment. That is one of the reasons they chose to go with the HSTs.

Exactly! I was travelling passenger recently through to Aberdeen on a 158 & the engine noise/vibration was quite noticeable (I think the engine was sounding a bit rough, to be fair). It's not something that normally bothers me, although I travelled on a 185 down to Preston a few years ago & the engine noise was atrocious on that particular coach - constantly revving up & idling.

An HST/Mk3 is, in my opinion, a very pleasant way to travel....research has proved that passengers like them in Scotland.

 

[connormill]

although I travelled on a 185 down to Preston a few years ago & the engine noise was atrocious on that particular coach - constantly revving up & idling..

I know exactly what you mean, I had the misfortune of a 185 TPE from Manchester Airport to Glasgow in the summer after an 11 hour flight.


It was awful and if that was what SR were running daily on InterCity then I do think the HST + Mk3 would be a huge step up. As it stands though I can't say I've had anywhere near as bad a time with the 170 fleet and think the Engine noise/vibration on these sets is far less of an issue.

Obviously the HST is still going to be a massive step up, but I feel the current 170 fleet isn't as bad as a lot of people make out, especially when compared with what other DMU's are running out there.

 

[Maxfly]

I was always told that these indicators are fitted to allow trains to start when ahead of the signal, is there now policy preventing/limiting this?

That's correct, not used in anger so often now days but the facility is still there and working as you say. Of course that's not to say scotrail haven't deemed it terribly awful for some reason.

 

[47271]

I know exactly what you mean, I had the misfortune of a 185 TPE from Manchester Airport to Glasgow in the summer after an 11 hour flight.


It was awful and if that was what SR were running daily on InterCity then I do think the HST + Mk3 would be a huge step up. As it stands though I can't say I've had anywhere near as bad a time with the 170 fleet and think the Engine noise/vibration on these sets is far less of an issue.

Obviously the HST is still going to be a massive step up, but I feel the current 170 fleet isn't as bad as a lot of people make out, especially when compared with what other DMU's are running out there.

All true, but remember that a 185 is very much more powerful than a 170 so engine noise and vibration will be more noticeable, and you experienced sustained high speed running of the sort that a Scotrail 170 could only dream of nowadays. The flip side is the 170's weaknesses in Scotland of acceleration and hill climbing, whether up Slochd or in the Queen Street Tunnel.

It's the 185's lousy ride quality that I have more of a problem with than noise and vibration, I had a water bottle nearly fly off the table at only medium speed between Manchester and York the other day. By contrast the Turbostars always sat nicely at 100 or thereabouts on the E&G shuttles, even through difficult spots like Cadder Yard and Winchburgh.

If Scotrail had 185s rather than 170s for the past ten years then I don't think that regular passengers would've noticed much difference - both types have too few seats and too little luggage space.

 

[jingsmonty]

All true, but remember that a 185 is very much more powerful than a 170 so engine noise and vibration will be more noticeable, and you experienced sustained high speed running of the sort that a Scotrail 170 could only dream of nowadays. The flip side is the 170's weaknesses in Scotland of acceleration and hill climbing, whether up Slochd or in the Queen Street Tunnel.

It's the 185's lousy ride quality that I have more of a problem with than noise and vibration, I had a water bottle nearly fly off the table at only medium speed between Manchester and York the other day. By contrast the Turbostars always sat nicely at 100 or thereabouts on the E&G shuttles, even through difficult spots like Cadder Yard and Winchburgh.

If Scotrail had 185s rather than 170s for the past ten years then I don't think that regular passengers would've noticed much difference - both types have too few seats and too little luggage space.

Yeah, would agree with that - both trains are ill suited for long distance work & are more suitable for commuter type services. I would agree that, performance aside, the 170s are better to travel in too - I've always though that 185s (goes for SR 380s too) have very 'plasticky' interiors & poor seats. Always seemed a bit ludicrous to put trains with insufficient luggage storage on long distance trains to/from Manchester Airport....

An HST will be a step up, in so many ways. Recently had the training train out for a retention/conpetence run & driving it just puts a smile on my face - the performance is game changing!

 

[sde426]

Yeah, would agree with that - both trains are ill suited for long distance work & are more suitable for commuter type services. I would agree that, performance aside, the 170s are better to travel in too - I've always though that 185s (goes for SR 380s too) have very 'plasticky' interiors & poor seats. Always seemed a bit ludicrous to put trains with insufficient luggage storage on long distance trains to/from Manchester Airport....

An HST will be a step up, in so many ways. Recently had the training train out for a retention/conpetence run & driving it just puts a smile on my face - the performance is game changing!

Indeed. 4,500 hp for just 4 coaches is really quite insane. The seats should be fitted with 5-point harnesses.

 

[Northhighland]

Yeah, would agree with that - both trains are ill suited for long distance work & are more suitable for commuter type services. I would agree that, performance aside, the 170s are better to travel in too - I've always though that 185s (goes for SR 380s too) have very 'plasticky' interiors & poor seats. Always seemed a bit ludicrous to put trains with insufficient luggage storage on long distance trains to/from Manchester Airport....

An HST will be a step up, in so many ways. Recently had the training train out for a retention/conpetence run & driving it just puts a smile on my face - the performance is game changing!

That sounds really promising. Should mean shorter journey times possibly a greater chance of making up lost time? No sign of a second delivery from Wabtec though. So looks like one a month isn’t going to happen.

 

[jingsmonty]

Indeed. 4,500 hp for just 4 coaches is really quite insane. The seats should be fitted with 5-point harnesses.

It's just good to be able to actually reach line speed going UPHILL - definetly not possible with a 158/170!

 

[jingsmonty]

That sounds really promising. Should mean shorter journey times possibly a greater chance of making up lost time? No sign of a second delivery from Wabtec though. So looks like one a month isn’t going to happen.

It is, but the issue with the HML differential line speeds isn't helpful at all (I've posted about this before, so I won't bore you all) - I hope this is looked at before the full introduction, as it does limit the impact of the performance of the HST

 

[Northhighland]

It is, but the issue with the HML differential line speeds isn't helpful at all (I've posted about this before, so I won't bore you all) - I hope this is looked at before the full introduction, as it does limit the impact of the performance of the HST

Monty

Any training being done on slam door stock in Inverness?

 

[Journeyman]

It's the 185's lousy ride quality that I have more of a problem with than noise and vibration, I had a water bottle nearly fly off the table at only medium speed between Manchester and York the other day. By contrast the Turbostars always sat nicely at 100 or thereabouts on the E&G shuttles, even through difficult spots like Cadder Yard and Winchburgh.

Agreed, despite the moans the Turbostar is a very comfortable train with decent interiors, and I think the only significant problems with them on the HML are the train length and lack of decent catering, both of which could easily be resolved.

The worst ride I've had recently was on an LNER HST recently, which squeaked and rattled like crazy (far worse than underfloor engine noise, which I can easily tune out), and bounced all over the place, repeatedly spilling coffee all over my table.

 

[Northhighland]

Agreed, despite the moans the Turbostar is a very comfortable train with decent interiors, and I think the only significant problems with them on the HML are the train length and lack of decent catering, both of which could easily be resolved.

The worst ride I've had recently was on an LNER HST recently, which squeaked and rattled like crazy (far worse than underfloor engine noise, which I can easily tune out), and bounced all over the place, repeatedly spilling coffee all over my table.

The problems are far more than length or catering. As a very regular user the catering is fine, basic but don’t see that as an issue.

Capacity is a huge problem. But the main issue is lack of luggage and cycle space. These units were not designed for journeys like the HML.

But to have people standing for over an hour and a situation where neither guard or trolley can get through is not acceptable.

You have fixed views on HST and that’s fine. You are not wrong they do Rattle and squeak a wee bit.

However passengers are voting with their feet. The LNER service is the choice of most highland travellers.

170 is simply not suited to the route and no amount of change will Make the issues different.

What is on offer if they ever get out of Wabtec is a significant improvement for passengers.

 

[Ben.A.98]

Agreed, despite the moans the Turbostar is a very comfortable train with decent interiors, and I think the only significant problems with them on the HML are the train length and lack of decent catering, both of which could easily be resolved.

The worst ride I've had recently was on an LNER HST recently, which squeaked and rattled like crazy (far worse than underfloor engine noise, which I can easily tune out), and bounced all over the place, repeatedly spilling coffee all over my table.

The problems are far more than length or catering. As a very regular user the catering is fine, basic but don’t see that as an issue.

However passengers are voting with their feet. The LNER service is the choice of most highland travellers.

What is on offer if they ever get out of Wabtec is a significant improvement for passengers.

I can only second this, I know so many people including myself that will always try and base a journey round the LNER HST, not because of the timings but because of the comfort and quality of the journey compared to getting the Scotrail 170.

 

[jingsmonty]

Agreed, despite the moans the Turbostar is a very comfortable train with decent interiors, and I think the only significant problems with them on the HML are the train length and lack of decent catering, both of which could easily be resolved.

The worst ride I've had recently was on an LNER HST recently, which squeaked and rattled like crazy (far worse than underfloor engine noise, which I can easily tune out), and bounced all over the place, repeatedly spilling coffee all over my table.

You forgot about the 1/3rd "/3rd opening doors (allowing wind, etc, into the coach), the dodgy aircon (hot & cold areas in the same coach), toilets that lock themselves out as the CETs are full & stinking, poor performance on gradients & lack of luggage space. These are all issues with 170s on the HML, pretty much all of which will be rectified with the introduction of HSTs. I've never had a bad experience with the LNER HST, maybe you just had a bad coach? I've always found a Mk3 to be very comfortable (& quiet).

I'm not against underfloor engines, per se (I actually enjoyed travelling from Hull to London KX on a Hull Trains 180 a few years ago), but there's no doubt that a trailer coach is quieter. I can't help feeling the underfloor engine concept has had it's day (look at the Greater Anglia Stadeler FLIRT units, for example).

 

[connormill]

I will agree that Luggage space is poor and (in the winter) the 1/3 - 2/3 doors is less than ideal, but overall I don't think the 170 is a bad set.

What would have been nice would have been a 4/5 car 170 set to relieve overcrowding and possibly introduce more luggage areas. but this is purely hypothetical now that we are near HST introduction

 

[Stoney1979]

Recently had the training train out for a retention/conpetence run & driving it just puts a smile on my face - the performance is game changing!

You're tremendously lucky to get paid for driving an HST! I'd pay VERY good money just to sit alongside in the cab.

On days like this the increased physical capacity of the new HSTs will be hugely beneficial. You can jam more sardines into a 4/5 coach HST than a 3 coach 170.... Assuming trains can actually physically run, of course. The point is, perhaps, more relevant to the recovery phase from days like this.

 

[najaB]

A question to any guards who've done the training (or anyone else in the know): do the refurbished sets have SDO? I watched a little bit of the training in Dundee yard on Monday and it looked like they were able to release/open the doors in selected coaches rather than all or nothing

 

[SC43090]

A question to any guards who've done the training (or anyone else in the know): do the refurbished sets have SDO? I watched a little bit of the training in Dundee yard on Monday and it looked like they were able to release/open the doors in selected coaches rather than all or nothing

Ex FGW unrefurbished HST sets have got Select door opening.....

iv'e no idea if the Scotrail refurbished set as got selective door opening.... I assume Scotrail would keep it.....

SC43090

 

[jingsmonty]

A question to any guards who've done the training (or anyone else in the know): do the refurbished sets have SDO? I watched a little bit of the training in Dundee yard on Monday and it looked like they were able to release/open the doors in selected coaches rather than all or nothing

I think that the plan is to have one door working from the PRM vehicle on platforms that are too short to accomodate the full length of the HST. Maybe someone else will know for sure...

 

[jingsmonty]

You're tremendously lucky to get paid for driving an HST! I'd pay VERY good money just to sit alongside in the cab.

On days like this the increased physical capacity of the new HSTs will be hugely beneficial. You can jam more sardines into a 4/5 coach HST than a 3 coach 170.... Assuming trains can actually physically run, of course. The point is, perhaps, more relevant to the recovery phase from days like this.

I have to agree...I've wanted to drive an HST since I had a trip from Newcastle to York many years ago (1984, I think it was - was an original liveried set anyway) when I must have been about 12 years old...it's only taken me another 34 years or so!

The rail enthusiast in me kind of regrets that they don't have Valenta engines any more - they did sound magnificent on full throttle! The MTU is much more reliable, quiet & fuel efficient though...

 

[GrimShady]

Agreed, despite the moans the Turbostar is a very comfortable train with decent interiors, and I think the only significant problems with them on the HML are the train length and lack of decent catering, both of which could easily be resolved.

The worst ride I've had recently was on an LNER HST recently, which squeaked and rattled like crazy (far worse than underfloor engine noise, which I can easily tune out), and bounced all over the place, repeatedly spilling coffee all over my table.

I would tend to agree with you, Turbostar isn't a bad train (I still prefer a vibration/noise free environment), they could be made even better by the suggestions you made but also with increased luggage space, a five car Turbostar with the middle coach featuring a buffet and extra luggage storagr wouldn't go a miss.

I must admit I have been on one or two bouncy LNER HSTs over the ECML, sitting over the bogies doesn't help, but this was at full line speed, sub 100mph I've had no issues. Never had any issues on the NL65 set at full speed.

The best ride in recent times on a MK3 has been on the Sleepers. I once woke up thinking we were stopped when in actual fact we were doing 80mph about an hour out of London.

 

[jingsmonty]

I would tend to agree with you, Turbostar isn't a bad train (I still prefer a vibration/noise free environment), they could be made even better by the suggestions you made but also with increased luggage space, a five car Turbostar with the middle coach featuring a buffet and extra luggage storagr wouldn't go a miss.

I must admit I have been on one or two bouncy LNER HSTs over the ECML, sitting over the bogies doesn't help, but this was at full line speed, sub 100mph I've had no issues. Never had any issues on the NL65 set at full speed.

The best ride in recent times on a MK3 has been on the Sleepers. I once woke up thinking we were stopped when in actual fact we were doing 80mph about an hour out of London.

This wouldn't address the woeful performance (especially compared to the HST training train on the HML), the doors being in the wrong position & the CET tanks being far too small...the Class 170, whilst not being a bad train (I actualy quite enjoy travelling on them & driving them too), but the HST is a different beast altogether - a proper 'InterCity' train, as opposed to a commuter train not well suited to long distance travel!

 

[GrimShady]

This wouldn't address the woeful performance (especially compared to the HST training train on the HML), the doors being in the wrong position & the CET tanks being far too small...the Class 170, whilst not being a bad train (I actualy quite enjoy travelling on them & driving them too), but the HST is a different beast altogether - a proper 'InterCity' train, as opposed to a commuter train not well suited to long distance travel!

Yes I fully agree. Would fitting them with higher rated engines solve the problem or is this down to the transmission?

 

[najaB]

Yes I fully agree. Would fitting them with higher rated engines solve the problem or is this down to the transmission?

Now your talking about a whole new class of train, however I believe that the transmission would still be an issue, even with higher rated engines.

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes I fully agree. Would fitting them with higher rated engines solve the problem or is this down to the transmission?

170431 and 170432 were trial fitted with the higher rated 483hp MTU engine that was subsequently fitted to the class 172 units. Reportedly this was not a success on Scotrail express services, and the two units have since been retrofitted with the standard 422hp engines, so I think that the shortcomings are with the transmission, given that the 172s, with their mechanical transmission, are considerably nippier.

 

[uxm]

Does anyone know how long the hsts are staying with scotrail?

 

[sprinterguy]

Does anyone know how long the hsts are staying with scotrail?

Until the end of the current franchise in 2025, and for at least 2-3 years of the next one as a bare minimum. Beyond that, my crystal ball grows cloudy...

 

[uxm]

Until the end of the current franchise in 2025, and for at least 2-3 years of the next one as a bare minimum. Beyond that, my crystal ball grows cloudy...

They're probably gonna get the class 93 (stadler) with MK5s

 

[gingertom]

They're probably gonna get the class 93 (stadler) with MK5s

the inter-city spec Stadler Flirt is getting the nod of approval at Innotrans, a bi-mode version would make sense.