ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Class83]

If it comes to pass that the unrefurished "40 year old English cast offs....second hand trains..." etc. etc. sets do come in it, will be fascinating to discover if the general public prefer them, or not, to a 158/170.....

I strongly suspect that most Scotrail Passengers are at the stage that if the train:

1: Stops at their Station
2: Is roughly on time
3: They can physically get onboard
4: They can get a seat

Where they will be quite happy, the Fife Circle loco hauls don't seem to cause too much angst among the users as they see the short forms/skip stops etc happening elsewhere and are aware that it could be a lot worse.

 

[Highlandspring]

I’ve been told more slam door sets are due to arrive next week to join the two already here (not counting the training sets).

 

[Stoney1979]

I strongly suspect that most Scotrail Passengers are at the stage that if the train:

1: Stops at their Station
2: Is roughly on time
3: They can physically get onboard
4: They can get a seat

Where they will be quite happy, the Fife Circle loco hauls don't seem to cause too much angst among the users as they see the short forms/skip stops etc happening elsewhere and are aware that it could be a lot worse.

Yes, indeed. It's going to take some adjustment going "backwards" to having to mechanically open a door from the outside, and having to re-learn how to open one from the inside - rather than just press a button.

It always amuses me, in admittedly a slightly cruel way, watching people (particularly, dare I say, tourists) trying to work out what to do with the doors on the current LNER slam door HML service.

 

[swaldman]

It always amuses me, in admittedly a slightly cruel way, watching people (particularly, dare I say, tourists) trying to work out what to do with the doors on the current LNER slam door HML service.

To be fair, the idea that one has to lean of the window to open the door from the other side is fairly ridiculous - and difficult for short people.

 

[Class83]

Yes, indeed. It's going to take some adjustment going "backwards" to having to mechanically open a door from the outside, and having to re-learn how to open one from the inside - rather than just press a button.

It always amuses me, in admittedly a slightly cruel way, watching people (particularly, dare I say, tourists) trying to work out what to do with the doors on the current LNER slam door HML service.

The door point is true, the current loco hauls are on commuter services so passengers learn how to open/close doors (and to close them if they're the last person) pretty quickly. It may be more difficult for occasional passengers, but on Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness most non-tourists should be used to HSTs.

 

[Stoney1979]

To be fair, the idea that one has to lean of the window to open the door from the other side is fairly ridiculous - and difficult for short people.

Absolutely, not just short people but anyone really. My mother of average height can't do it, it shouldn't be happening. Sticking your head out of a train window doesn't come naturally to most people at the best of times.

The Young Ones "Universally Challenged" episode with Vivian en route comes to mind, for anyone of that vintage....

 

[Class83]

Absolutely, not just short people but anyone really. My mother of average height can't do it, it shouldn't be happening. Sticking your head out of a train window doesn't come naturally to most people at the best of times.

The Young Ones "Universally Challenged" episode with Vivian en route comes to mind, for anyone of that vintage....

Avoid doing so (or exercise extreme caution) when doing so if you're wearing a white shirt. The MTUs may coat the outside of the door with less soot than the Valentas did.

 

[Stoney1979]

Avoid doing so (or exercise extreme caution) when doing so if you're wearing a white shirt. The MTUs may coat the outside of the door with less soot than the Valentas did.

Going a bit off thread, however, briefly, I still enjoy having the option to stick my head out the HST Mk3 door windows (at whatever cost to my shirt). In fact, I sometimes just go and stand in the vestibule with the window down for the fun of it.

Any HST will make it certain that I'll use the train on the HML, rather than drive, in order to avoid the current abysmal 170 experience. At risk of repeating above, the 170s aren't a bad train. They're just not suitable for InterCity in Scotland. They're perfect though, for example, for the Borders Railway.

 

[BRX]

Going a bit off thread, however, briefly, I still enjoy having the option to stick my head out the HST Mk3 door windows (at whatever cost to my shirt). In fact, I sometimes just go and stand in the vestibule with the window down for the fun of it.

Same here and it's a shame we'll lose this with the rebuilds (unless that single pair of droplights in the un-modified doors remain openable...which I hold out the tiniest amount of hope for)

 

[chuff chuff]

Same here and it's a shame we'll lose this with the rebuilds (unless that single pair of droplights in the un-modified doors remain openable...which I hold out the tiniest amount of hope for)

Fraid not.

 

[Highlandspring]

That’s odd because I’ve seen someone leaning out of it during the crew training in Dundee Yard...

 

[chuff chuff]

The droplight window is still there but will be locked out of use in service.

 

[BRX]

I'll just have to hope someone forgets to lock it now and again.

 

[GrimShady]

I've travelled down on the training train when I was learning HSTs & I'd say the ride quality is superior to either a 158 or 170. Power car is a bit bouncier, mind you (not that that is relevant to the punters...!)..but, definetly, Mk3 rules over DMU on the HML for comfort.

I'd say the same about the LNER HST, although it's been a while since I travelled on it.

Incidentally, I've heard a rumour that LNER are planning to keep a large no. of their HSTs & refurbish them a la Scotrail, due to Azumas not having sufficient performance 'off the wires' - not strictly relevant to Scotrail, I know, but it says a lot to me that a brand new train can't effectively replace a so called '40 year old cast off'...just for those out there who keep trying to say that Scotrail should have gone for new trains...

Good to hear thanks!

Be prepared for a torrent of abuse from the anti-HST brigade!

 

[timj]

I thought they were getting a micro buffet .

Yes, here it is:

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought they were getting a micro buffet .

jingsmonty was referring to the planned formation of unrefurbished slam door sets, not the refurbished trains.

 

[jingsmonty]

I'd take that with a pinch of salt - LNER has very little (no?) off the wire running at >100mph.

Probably right - I'm just passing on a rumour from someone a bit higher up than me....not claiming that it's true (or if I even believe it myself). There have been IEPs up in Inverness on test (a plain 'GWR' green class 802 9 car & a 2x5 car plain white Class 800). I would be be very interested to see how they compare, performance-wise with a 9 coach LNER HST (it won't compare at all to the performance potential of a Scotrail 4/5 car HST, which kind of illustrates why Scotrail went for them in the 1st place.....).

 

[jingsmonty]

jingsmonty was referring to the planned formation of unrefurbished slam door sets, not the refurbished trains.

Exactly - the unrefurbished sets are a temporary measure, the micro buffets are planned for the refurbishment (I haven't seen the refurbished rake yet, but it's clearly part of that set, on the evidence of the above photo). I'm just saying that I don't know what the plan for catering of the 'Classic' sets will be, as who knows if the GWR buffets will be part of the rake. I suspect not.

 

[jingsmonty]

Unless things changed since I lived in GWR-land (2012ish), they had the "how many commuters can we pack in?" coaches for relatively short Bristol services, and versions with more tables for Plymouth and Penzance.

We travelled from Paddington to St Austell a few years ago (back in 'First Scotrail' days - FirstGroup staff passes!) & it was definetly a high density standard class configured coach...was a direct Paddington to Penzance train.

 

[jingsmonty]

If it comes to pass that the unrefurished "40 year old English cast offs....second hand trains..." etc. etc. sets do come in it, will be fascinating to discover if the general public prefer them, or not, to a 158/170.....

I suspect they will - more seats, better ride, more luggage space, faster services, better facilities (in a refurbished one anyway).....

 

[jingsmonty]

Most interesting. So, that's the first real news on this for months, SR explicitly blaming Wabtec. They (SR) must have been forced into saying something for no other reason than time is running out. If the article is be believed, we can expect 9 "unrefurbisheds" coming along in Dec.

This must surely place a very heavy training and logistical burden on drivers and crews, given the short timescale involved?

In short: Yes it does!!

 

[jingsmonty]

Absolutely, not just short people but anyone really. My mother of average height can't do it, it shouldn't be happening. Sticking your head out of a train window doesn't come naturally to most people at the best of times.

The Young Ones "Universally Challenged" episode with Vivian en route comes to mind, for anyone of that vintage....

My Wife hates having to open a Mk3 door from the inside - she says she just about ends up hanging onto it as it swings out......!

 

[ScotTrains]

Incidentally, I've heard a rumour that LNER are planning to keep a large no. of their HSTs & refurbish them a la Scotrail, due to Azumas not having sufficient performance 'off the wires' - not strictly relevant to Scotrail, I know, but it says a lot to me that a brand new train can't effectively replace a so called '40 year old cast off'...

That would be great news! After all, who would choose to travel on an azuma over a refurbished Scotrail HST. Hopefully LNER are able to refurbish their HSTs to an even higher standard than the Scotrail ones to give them an edge. It will certainly be interesting having three different HST operators on the route north of Edinburgh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought all the GWR coaches had high density seating? The training train coaches do....

There is a lower density layout, but it isn't much different, I think it has 2 more tables per coach but otherwise the same.

 

[najaB]

That would be great news!

If it was true. As noted above, while LNER might want to keep HSTs it would not be because of performance issues off the wires. GWR's operational experience has shown than there's no performance deficit where line speed is under 110-115mph.

The class 800s are faster off the mark and hit 60 to 70mph sooner than a HST, which doesn't claw back the advantage until somewhere north of the century mark.

Most (all?) of LNER's off the wires running is at 100mph or less.

To bring things (almost) back to topic, that's why the 2025 version of the five-car Class 800 is likely to replace the HSTs once the wires have reached Perth and Dundee (or points north thereof).

 

[jingsmonty]

There is a lower density layout, but it isn't much different, I think it has 2 more tables per coach but otherwise the same.

I'll have a look at the coaches on the training train tomorrow - I think there's about 2 table bays per side? I assumed the lower density GWR seating was the same as the normal Mk3 layout, but cheers for clearing that up - I assumed that GWR had reconfigured them all the same way.

 

[jingsmonty]

If it was true. As noted above, while LNER might want to keep HSTs it would not be because of performance issues off the wires. GWR's operational experience has shown than there's no performance deficit where line speed is under 110-115mph.

The class 800s are faster off the mark and hit 60 to 70mph sooner than a HST, which doesn't claw back the advantage until somewhere north of the century mark.

Most (all?) of LNER's off the wires running is at 100mph or less.

That's all good and well, but the performance issues North of Edinburgh are for gradients, as opposed to outright top speed. Both the ECML North of Edinburgh and (particularly) the HML have a pretty severe gradient profile. It would be interesting to see how the Class 802s are coping with the Cornish gradients? I would also have liked to know how the Class 800 & 802 sets that were in Inverness compared, performance-wise as well. Perhaps this rumour has arisen from this data?

I also read an interesting article in a railway mag (can't remember which one) about potential overheating issues with IEPs, due to the lack of cooling/airflow with the underfloor engines & the power they will have to produce. No such current issues with an HST power car, with it's large air intakes & cooler group...another nail in the coffin for underfloor engine layouts? IEP takes that layout as far (& possibly beyond...) the limit?

I think that, given time (& the full timetable introduction & full introduction of the refurbished sets) that Scotrail's choice of HST will be fully vindicated....

 

[jingsmonty]

If it was true. As noted above, while LNER might want to keep HSTs it would not be because of performance issues off the wires. GWR's operational experience has shown than there's no performance deficit where line speed is under 110-115mph.

The class 800s are faster off the mark and hit 60 to 70mph sooner than a HST, which doesn't claw back the advantage until somewhere north of the century mark.

Most (all?) of LNER's off the wires running is at 100mph or less.

To bring things (almost) back to topic, that's why the 2025 version of the five-car Class 800 is likely to replace the HSTs once the wires have reached Perth and Dundee (or points north thereof).

As said, the above would be true of an IEP running on electric power, but I seriously doubt it would match the acceleration of an HST if it was running on Diesel power. Particularly North of Edinburgh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll have a look at the coaches on the training train tomorrow - I think there's about 2 table bays per side? I assumed the lower density GWR seating was the same as the normal Mk3 layout, but cheers for clearing that up - I assumed that GWR had reconfigured them all the same way.

I wonder if they may have changed them all the same, as when I Google for a seating plan I get older ones with two layouts and a newer one with only one. But as I said the only substantial difference is an additional table - one per side on high density, two on low. With regard to legroom the density is a bit of a misnomer as both have decent legroom.

 

[47271]

If you look at the GWR seating plan

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/safety-information/hst-seating-plan.pdf

then it shows no Standard Class coaches as having more than two tables, and some have no tables at all. I've never seen more than two.