ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

This is a bad start for HST’s and it mostly could and should have been avoided.

It’s not really anything to do with the HSTs as such, though, and everything to do with poor management of training. They could have been using space hoppers, the actual traction is irrelevant when it comes to making a mess of training. Perhaps the incompetemce transferred from GWR with the HSTs?

 

[Northhighland]

It’s not really anything to do with the HSTs as such, though, and everything to do with poor management of training. They could have been using space hoppers, the actual traction is irrelevant when it comes to making a mess of training. Perhaps the incompetemce transferred from GWR with the HSTs?

Don't disagree the point I am making is this supposed improvement in capacity is turning into a disaster and is in fact resulting in less capacity. For the normal passenger training or traction problems means the same outcome.

 

[43096]

Don't disagree the point I am making is this supposed improvement in capacity is turning into a disaster and is in fact resulting in less capacity. For the normal passenger training or traction problems means the same outcome.

Oh I absolutely agree. It is something many in the industry just doesn’t get, though: the average punter couldn’t give a stuff why, it just means poor service to those who pay.

 

[theblackwatch]

Monday 24th December 2018 Christmas Eve

I went to the top of the car park at Doncaster & looked into Wabtec Yard there was a pair of back to back unidentified Scotrail power cars.... counted at least 25 HST coaches all in some way shape or form that had been partiy rebuilt, Some had new sliding doors fitted, some had work done to the roofs, & few had not been touched..... Some of those coaches was for Cross Country, some for Scotrail, & some for Great Western, a few was painted in Scotrail colours most of the others was still in First Great Western blue so it was hard to say who they would end up with....

By my reckoning, there are currently 27 coaches undergoing rebuild for ScotRail alone in Doncaster - plus those for the other TOCs. Quite how long it will take for all these to emerge, I suspect nobody can answer!

 

[route101]

Particularly at the moment!

One downside of the coach . Of course if theres spaces but can be a lengthy wait , no dupes it seems .

 

[connormill]

Am I right that most of Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness diagrams change crew at Perth or Dundee, and Aberdeen if they're going to Inverness that way? So an HST can't be put on service unless Control can be sure that all the crews for the whole diagram are passed out on the HST, whether refurbished or 'Classic'?

I would think that is true given how a lot of the Edinburgh-Aberdeen cancellations were going down on Sunday and Monday.

Leaving aberdeen fine, replaced by a bus from Perth on the Southbound
Leaving Edinburgh, replaced by a bus from Dundee on the Northbound

SR site had the reason being crew shortage, which (understandably) let to a lot of irate comments on the social media from regular folks asking how can a train have a crew shortage for only half of it's (fair short) journey.

 

[Northhighland]

By my reckoning, there are currently 27 coaches undergoing rebuild for ScotRail alone in Doncaster - plus those for the other TOCs. Quite how long it will take for all these to emerge, I suspect nobody can answer!

There lies the problem. If someone cane out and said this programme will be complete in x months then decisions and plans could be made.

One unit is complete and is done really well. The absence of a second unit is troubling. There needs to be some communication and realistic targets set.

Current situation highlights how poor the rail industry is at project planning and delivery. There also a total disregard for the public in decision making.

 

[BRX]

I think I just spied an actual HST in action: 1A57 glasgow to aberdeen.

 

[47271]

Sorry, I missed the question on crew changes. I don't know about Aberdeen services but, yes, nearly all HML Scotrail trains change crew at Perth with Inverness crews working north. There may be one or two exceptions, for example I think that the 2015 Inverness-Glasgow has a Queen Street crew throughout.

Even if there are one or two exceptions, it won't be enough to help much with the problem under discussion here.

 

[ER158715]

Only Inverness and Perth crews sign the HML as far as ScR are concerned. The services are fairly evenly split. Currently the 0536, 0650, 0944, 1255, 1553 and 1725 are Inverness drivers with the remainder Perth ones. The northbound ones are 0951, 1154, 1314, 1901,1922 and 2101.

 

[Darandio]

One unit is complete and is done really well. The absence of a second unit is troubling. There needs to be some communication and realistic targets set.

How do we know there hasn't been communication between the parties and a revision of the targets? Or do you mean nobody has personally rang you yet?

 

[dmkc]

Two HST sets sitting in HA back sidings as of this morning anyway.

 

[47271]

Only Inverness and Perth crews sign the HML as far as ScR are concerned. The services are fairly evenly split. Currently the 0536, 0650, 0944, 1255, 1553 and 1725 are Inverness drivers with the remainder Perth ones. The northbound ones are 0951, 1154, 1314, 1901,1922 and 2101.

Fair enough and helpful info, I must nearly always use services that are covered by Inverness crews then. I must have mistaken a Perth conductor for a Glasgow one.

 

[_toommm_]

11:38 Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen formed of 2 of the Inter7City liveried 43's and 4 GWR refurbished slam doors

 

[ER158715]

• Fair enough and helpful info, I must nearly always use services that are covered by Inverness crews then. I must have mistaken a Perth conductor for a Glasgow one.

  IIRC, there are a couple of diagrams where a Perth crew works all the way from Glasgow to Inverness. Used to be one where they worked an Edinburgh INV all the way too.

 

[DarloRich]

There lies the problem. If someone cane out and said this programme will be complete in x months then decisions and plans could be made.

One unit is complete and is done really well. The absence of a second unit is troubling. There needs to be some communication and realistic targets set.

Current situation highlights how poor the rail industry is at project planning and delivery. There also a total disregard for the public in decision making.

Do you know what the issues are? What input should there be from the public in decision making? How do you propose to communicate your decision?

 

[Northhighland]

Do you know what the issues are? What input should there be from the public in decision making? How do you propose to communicate your decision?

I don’t want any input into the decisions. I want those paid to make informed decisions to do what they are paid for and tell us when the promised service improvements will actually take place.

Given the HST programme is now close to a year late and one set has been delivered, now seeing wholesale cancellations and short forming of services. Billions of pounds of taxpayers money have been poured into the rail network. Promises were made this would lead to wholesale improvement. This is the time for the travelling public to see a return on all that investment.

Instead we see a total shambles and no-one being accountable for the shambles. Instead customers are treated with disdain, read some of the attitudes on here many rail staff have no concept of a customer or why their views are important.

Worst service delivery for 13 years. Usual excuses and no change in attitude so we will continually get the same results.

 

[DarloRich]

I don’t want any input into the decisions. I want those paid to make informed decisions to do what they are paid for and tell us when the promised service improvements will actually take place.

Given the HST programme is now close to a year late and one set has been delivered, now seeing wholesale cancellations and short forming of services. Billions of pounds of taxpayers money have been poured into the rail network. Promises were made this would lead to wholesale improvement. This is the time for the travelling public to see a return on all that investment.

Instead we see a total shambles and no-one being accountable for the shambles. Instead customers are treated with disdain, read some of the attitudes on here many rail staff have no concept of a customer or why their views are important.

Worst service delivery for 13 years. Usual excuses and no change in attitude so we will continually get the same results.

People held accountable - what does that mean? Asking again: do you know what the issues are? Who is accountable for those issues?

Would you feel better if someone got sacked? Would that help deliver faster?

What attitude do you want to change? What would a better attitude look like? Which of your views should be considered? How should your views be pulled?

I see loads of meaningless phrase like those above but no ideas about what should happen beyond better!

 

[Northhighland]

People held accountable - what does that mean? Asking again: do you know what the issues are? Who is accountable for those issues?

Would you feel better if someone got sacked? Would that help deliver faster?

What attitude do you want to change? What would a better attitude look like? Which of your views should be considered? How should your views be pulled?

I see loads of meaningless phrase like those above but no ideas about what should happen beyond better!

The issues are fairly simple. ScotRail have not provided the service improvements they were funded to deliver.

It must have been fairly obvious some months ago that the refurb programme was in trouble. It must have been equally obvious that a back up plan was needed. Yet we still have staff not trained for the back up plan.

I think it is not unreasonable to ask that someone in ScotRail is held to account for that.

From the posts on here made by persons working in the industry it is obvious that customers are not put at the centre of decision making. That attitude has to change if performance is to change.

I never mentioned sackings you did. Holding someone to account is required if they can’t deliver then the future is for others to decide. But for sure current ScotRail performance is way off acceptable. That must change.

A better attitude would look like meaningful communication that actually lets passengers know when things are to be delivered and if these dates slip sensible communication as to when it is reasonable to expect the improvements to be delivered.

Good attitude would also be a clear effort to put the views and needs of customers at the centre of de idiom making. Not treating us like cattle.

For my view this needs fundamental change in the way our railway is run. It is as much a culture issue as it is anything else.

 

[Esker-pades]

People held accountable - what does that mean? Asking again: do you know what the issues are? Who is accountable for those issues?

Would you feel better if someone got sacked? Would that help deliver faster?

What attitude do you want to change? What would a better attitude look like? Which of your views should be considered? How should your views be pulled?

I see loads of meaningless phrase like those above but no ideas about what should happen beyond better!

In this case, senior management has been awful. Staff were only put into training less than 2 weeks before the timetable change. HST training for unrefurbished sets should have started months earlier (May 2018 at the latest when the first refurbished set wasn't delivered on time). The first electric train to Dunblane was the 28th of November, less than 2 weeks before the timetable change.
Services in the week running up to the timetable change were cancelled so that staff could be trained. These cancellations still exist. The senior management had their heads buried in the sand until they realise that things were not just going to sort themselves out. They acted in the order of weeks, not months (which is what is required).

Being held accountable should mean some form of financial penalty directly to the wages/bonuses of the management. That appears to be the only thing that gets them worried.

 

[DarloRich]

Without wishing to be rude how do you put customers at the heart of decision making. What does that look like? Is the decision to secure better trains not putting passengers first? Is putting passengers first now cancelling the whole thing?

The other issue is that it is very easy to demand a back up plan. The problem is that there are few alternative trains available.

Personally from the outside and without knowing any detials I would have tried to get the maximum number of same type vehicles fitted with sliding doors and then marshalled them up into rakes with slam doors and run the trains. That would take the pressure of the overhauled and improve services. I would have run without sliding doors if that proved difficult.

I am happy to agree that communication around the issues delaying this project seems very poor. I have my own suspicions based on experience but a wider understanding would be very helpful. I further suspect the issues mean a resolution date is a moving target.

Finally I suspect wabtec will be held to account via a financial claim over the contractual performance. As long as the contract allows it of course!

 

[DarloRich]

In this case, senior management has been awful. Staff were only put into training less than 2 weeks before the timetable change. HST training for unrefurbished sets should have started months earlier (May 2018 at the latest when the first refurbished set wasn't delivered on time). The first electric train to Dunblane was the 28th of November, less than 2 weeks before the timetable change.
Services in the week running up to the timetable change were cancelled so that staff could be trained. These cancellations still exist. The senior management had their heads buried in the sand until they realise that things were not just going to sort themselves out. They acted in the order of weeks, not months (which is what is required).

Being held accountable should mean some form of financial penalty directly to the wages/bonuses of the management. That appears to be the only thing that gets them worried.

That is fairly poor!!!!!!!!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Being held accountable should mean some form of financial penalty directly to the wages/bonuses of the management. That appears to be the only thing that gets them worried.

It seems Abellio is at risk of losing the franchise for poor performance. Is that not penalty/incentive enough?
The franchise agreement will have penalties attached if services are not delivered (frequency and capacity targets usually).
The delays with HSTs appear to be at the manufacturer's door, so it depends what kind of contract there is for the conversions.
It may not have any penalty clauses - working with 40-year-old Mk3s is not an exact science.
But it might impact the credibility of Wabtec in taking on similar work in the future.
You will find it very hard to raid the pockets of Abellio management (with Network Rail in there as partners as well), unless the contract allows for it.
And how would SG's mythical public sector alternative TOC have managed the situation?

 

[43096]

Being held accountable should mean some form of financial penalty directly to the wages/bonuses of the management. That appears to be the only thing that gets them worried.

So if you screw up in your job, you’d take a hit to your wages, then?

 

[Esker-pades]

So if you screw up in your job, you’d take a hit to your wages, then?

Well, I'm in university at the moment. So, if I screw up I loose £27,750 (the cost of 3 years tutition). So, yes.

 

[43096]

Well, I'm in university at the moment. So, if I screw up I loose £27,750 (the cost of 3 years tutition). So, yes.

Ah. With all due respect, a lack of life experience is partly behind what you said, then.

 

[BRX]

Perfectly reasonable to suggest that bonuses should be related to performance. In theory that's the point of them isn't it?

 

[Mingulay]

It seems Abellio is at risk of losing the franchise for poor performance. Is that not penalty/incentive enough?
The franchise agreement will have penalties attached if services are not delivered (frequency and capacity targets usually).
The delays with HSTs appear to be at the manufacturer's door, so it depends what kind of contract there is for the conversions.
It may not have any penalty clauses - working with 40-year-old Mk3s is not an exact science.
But it might impact the credibility of Wabtec in taking on similar work in the future.
You will find it very hard to raid the pockets of Abellio management (with Network Rail in there as partners as well), unless the contract allows for it.
And how would SG's mythical public sector alternative TOC have managed the situation?

I am not in favour of sackings for sacking sake. That’s just short term vengeance.

I would put a passengers representative body on the board that has real teeth built into the franchise agreement. Not just some random passengers but someone with business experience and is There to represent the passenger body taking views and soundings from passengers and someone who will travel the network. Perhaps from a hospitality background. Much of the problem is communication. And Scotrail management at the Dunblane meeting put there hands up and said they have poorly communicated to customers. That should be a quick fix. Passengers I feel do understand things won’t get better overnight.

Threats tho the franchise by The Scottish government has to be taken as shallow political posturing. They should also acknowledge that they were part of the decisions. Politicians like to dodge blame . I restate that due diligence in this project should have been wabtec refurbishing a few rakes and establishing the likely extent of the work. You should never buy the prototype of anything ! Show it works first. Then agree a contract. Anyone with some moderate degree of objectivity should anticipate old trains may be corroded.

I doubt ministers want to get more involved in the railways. I suspect the transport brief is a poison chalice. They only last about a year in post. You certainly can’t expect Scot gov to make decent job of it.

For now I think there needs to be a frank acceptance by Scotrail that they have failed to deliver. A more urgent review of the revised timetable. Drop the Scotland’s best ever nonsense till another day. Invite passenger groups onboard with a sincere intent to listen and empathise

Other than that it looks like we are stuck with what they have.

I’m a fan of the 365. If we can get more for now? Not sure that will help on the diesel routes. Think a big improvement on My route. Just a shame it was not on a timetable that worked for commuters.

Also a very simple act is to cancel the fares rise as a gesture on affected routes.

On plus side. I do applaud the onboard crew. I find them on our side. That helps ease the frustration.

 

[Esker-pades]

Ah. With all due respect, a lack of life experience is partly behind what you said, then.

I've been involved with things long enough to know that inactive senior management needs a kick in the wallet to get them moving. And bonuses must be performance related. Any bonus scheme which says "yes, you deserve your bonus" after ScotRail is broken.

 

[Highlandspring]

Is there a bonus scheme for ScotRail management then?