Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[hexagon789]

That’s why it’s now a 5 car DMU formation as this gives more standard seats than on a 5 car HST.

12 seats more, assuming the 170 is a 170/4...

 

[BRX]

During tourist season presumably a 5 car HST has some advantage over a 5 car DMU in terms of luggage and bike space, even if the number of seats is slightly less.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

During tourist season presumably a 5 car HST has some advantage over a 5 car DMU in terms of luggage and bike space, even if the number of seats is slightly less.

The DMUs have a greater number of bike spaces I understand. Although they are looking at increasing the amount on the HSTs - don’t forget the Scottish HSTs don’t have vans.

 

[92002]

The DMUs have a greater number of bike spaces I understand. Although they are looking at increasing the amount on the HSTs - don’t forget the Scottish HSTs don’t have vans.

However they do have 6 bookable bike spaces on an HST.

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps the solution is not only use a 5 car HST but to provide another around the time on a Saturday timetable.perhaps 30 minutes before or after the current train. There are single line sections to take into account.

An easy solution would be to run a longer train, but stations would need extended for a one day problem.

This has always been a popular time on Summer Saturday. Even before 170s were introduced many years ago..

There are plenty of HSTs not in use to provide the train.

It's much easier and more cost effective to just use a 170+158, or a pair of 170s which have occasionally worked the service. This doesn't require any platform extension or additional train crew and offers more capacity than an HST.

If you wanted to add a 1010 departure from Inverness you would have a clash with the 1029 arrival from Glasgow Queen Street somewhere between Tomatin and Millburn Jn, and then again with the 1201 arrival from Edinburgh somewhere between Aviemore and Kingussie. These would have to wait back in loops.

 

[92002]

It's much easier and more cost effective to just use a 170+158, or a pair of 170s which have occasionally worked the service. This doesn't require any platform extension or additional train crew and offers more capacity than an HST.

If you wanted to add a 1010 departure from Inverness you would have a clash with the 1029 arrival from Glasgow Queen Street somewhere between Tomatin and Millburn Jn, and then again with the 1201 arrival from Edinburgh somewhere between Aviemore and Kingussie. These would have to wait back in loops.

No real reason why it needs to be a 1010 departure. Could just as easily be a 1020 or 1025 deoarture to avoid any clashes.

 

[BRX]

The DMUs have a greater number of bike spaces I understand. Although they are looking at increasing the amount on the HSTs - don’t forget the Scottish HSTs don’t have vans.

How many bike spaces do Scotrail 158s and 170s have, then?

 

[Starmill]

No real reason why it needs to be a 1010 departure. Could just as easily be a 1020 or 1025 deoarture to avoid any clashes.

They would still clash, just in different places. The more trains run the more time has to be added to schedules to cover this.

 

[92002]

They would still clash, just in different places. The more trains run the more time has to be added to schedules to cover this.

On single line sections it's not unknown for trains ro cross.

 

[John Bishop]

That’s why it’s now a 5 car DMU formation as this gives more standard seats than on a 5 car HST.

The problem is that it’s short formed whenever there’s issues and does on a semi regular occasion leave as a 2 car or 3 car when they need a unit to step up, ironically mostly due to an HST failing. It’s the busiest service that leaves Inverness all morning and has been for years.

In other news, HA12 has moved from Slateford to Inverness after being stored for about a year.

 

[Starmill]

On single line sections it's not unknown for trains ro cross.

Trains cross in the passing loops all the time, but the ones at the northern end of the Highland Main Line require at least one of the trains to stop.

 

[92002]

Trains cross in the passing loops all the time, but the ones at the northern end of the Highland Main Line require at least one of the trains to stop.

Which is not unusual most days. They don't always cross at a station either.

 

[Starmill]

Which is not unusual most days. They don't always cross at a station either.

I think that you're missing the point. If it were unusual that would effectively make the entire line from Perth to Inverness one-way, which nobody has suggested because it is so hilarious... To add more trains will result in existing trains taking longer because they have to wait in the loops. Nobody is saying that running another train is impossible, simply that it has too many downsides and the route doesn't have enough people using it to justify them.

As for a station why would that have anything to do with it?

 

[92002]

I think that you're missing the point. If it were unusual that would effectively make the entire line from Perth to Inverness one-way, which nobody has suggested because it is so hilarious... To add more trains will result in existing trains taking longer because they have to wait in the loops. Nobody is saying that running another train is impossible, simply that it has too many downsides and the route doesn't have enough people using it to justify them.

As for a station why would that have anything to do with it?

The skill is to pass the trainss with minimum amount of delays. Especially when there is late running. .

 

[jagardner1984]

The skill is to pass the trainss with minimum amount of delays. Especially when there is late running. .

Or perhaps to acknowledge that in 2023 in our quest (allegedly) for net zero, a population of the Highlands totalling 235000 people and 9900 square miles of land, should probably be served by more than two pieces of steel rail, 4ft 8 1/2 inches apart.

Unfashionable opinion perhaps, but in the fabled land where we achieve any form of economic growth, presumably the limit of our ambitions for should not be the capacity of a 5 car train, whichever flavour maintenance allow it to be today ....

 

[Starmill]

The skill is to pass the trainss with minimum amount of delays. Especially when there is late running. .

Trains wouldn't be delayed, their journey times would just be extended by the need to add time. You can't avoid that without either causing a collision (not an option, obviously) or doing further doubling.

Or perhaps to acknowledge that in 2023 in our quest (allegedly) for net zero, a population of the Highlands totalling 235000 people and 9900 square miles of land, should probably be served by more than two pieces of steel rail, 4ft 8 1/2 inches apart.

Unfashionable opinion perhaps, but in the fabled land where we achieve any form of economic growth, presumably the limit of our ambitions for should not be the capacity of a 5 car train, whichever flavour maintenance allow it to be today ....

Extension of at least one loop somewhere between Newtonmore and Inverness so that it's possible for trains to pass while both are moving would be a good start. Obviously the Aviemore and Kingussie station loops do almost fulfil the purpose insofar as all trains must stop there anyway for passengers but it could be much better.

 

[JohnMcL7]

How many bike spaces do Scotrail 158s and 170s have, then?

I believe it's two slots for 170s and four for a 158, the HSTs originally only had two but now have six slots.

The problem is that it’s short formed whenever there’s issues and does on a semi regular occasion leave as a 2 car or 3 car when they need a unit to step up, ironically mostly due to an HST failing. It’s the busiest service that leaves Inverness all morning and has been for years.

In other news, HA12 has moved from Slateford to Inverness after being stored for about a year.

I was curious about this move since it was run by ROG, why is it now being moved up to Inverness?

 

[Stathern Jc]

What are the catering arrangements now?
If you're travelling on a 158 +170 service that does have a trolley there will be at least 2 coaches in which anyone wanting even a lukewarm trolley coffee would have preferred to be in a 2+5 HST.
That could be a considerable number of visitors to The Highlands who will go home with an unflattering account of travel with ScotRail.

 

[hexagon789]

What are the catering arrangements now?
If you're travelling on a 158 +170 service that does have a trolley there will be at least 2 coaches in which anyone wanting even a lukewarm trolley coffee would have preferred to be in a 2+5 HST.
That could be a considerable number of visitors to The Highlands who will go home with an unflattering account of travel with ScotRail.

Given so few services have catering at present, it's not currently a major issue I wouldn't have thought. When the provision is lifted in May (or at least that's the intention), many may simply regard a trolley as a bonus rather than expect one given the very limited provision over the last few years.

 

[BRX]

That 10.50 departure from Inverness, am I right in thinking it's the remnants of what was once the through train to Euston?

I seem to remember a period in the 90s, once the loco hauled services had mostly been taken over by DMUs, when there was a 10 something departure from Inverness (and return trip) that was worked by a special loco hauled set, ex intercity AC mk2s if I remember right, that was longer than the other scotrail services and went from platform 1 or 2.

Seems unfortunate, if it's a known popular service, that they've not managed to diagram it for an HST.

(As an aside it's also a real shame that the Highland main line was allowed to lose its daytime through service to the WCML, all that time ago.)

What are the catering arrangements now?
If you're travelling on a 158 +170 service that does have a trolley there will be at least 2 coaches in which anyone wanting even a lukewarm trolley coffee would have preferred to be in a 2+5 HST.
That could be a considerable number of visitors to The Highlands who will go home with an unflattering account of travel with ScotRail.

I did sight a catering trolley on an Inverness HST the other week!

I agree it wouldn't look good to a visitor, to find that an Intercity branded 3 or 4 hour journey has no catering whatsoever. Especially if they've changed into that service from another long one, with no time to get a snack or hot drink in between.

Is there a plan for the buffet bars to reopen in the scotrail HSTs...ever?

 

[chuff chuff]

That 10.50 departure from Inverness, am I right in thinking it's the remnants of what was once the through train to Euston?

I seem to remember a period in the 90s, once the loco hauled services had mostly been taken over by DMUs, when there was a 10 something departure from Inverness (and return trip) that was worked by a special loco hauled set, ex intercity AC mk2s if I remember right, that was longer than the other scotrail services and went from platform 1 or 2.

Seems unfortunate, if it's a known popular service, that they've not managed to diagram it for an HST.

The clansman I think.

 

[hexagon789]

That 10.50 departure from Inverness, am I right in thinking it's the remnants of what was once the through train to Euston?

I don't know about remnants of, but the Clansman was traditionally the 1030/1035 off Inverness. It moved to 1100 in 1986 when it was briefly upgraded to a 110mph Trent Valley service, then went into decline.

From 1987 until removal it went via Edinburgh, before that it was direct Stirling to Mossend.

I agree it wouldn't look good to a visitor, to find that an Intercity branded 3 or 4 hour journey has no catering whatsoever. Especially if they've changed into that service from another long one, with no time to get a snack or hot drink in between.

Most countries in Europe offer nothing or possibly a vending machine on similar length Regional journeys. Catering if provided is predominantly only long-distance InterCity services.

And no, despite the branding I wouldn't call ScotRail's I7C InterCity it's really a regional express network.

Is there a plan for the buffet bars to reopen in the scotrail HSTs...ever?

Yes there is, but again running with the previous arrangement of one staff member for trolley and buffet.

 

[BRX]

Whatever might happen in other countries I'd say that in the UK basic catering is a fairly normal expectation on journeys longer than a couple of hours. The journey time from Edinburgh to Inverness is not that much less than from Edinburgh to London.

 

[92002]

Whatever might happen in other countries I'd say that in the UK basic catering is a fairly normal expectation on journeys longer than a couple of hours. The journey time from Edinburgh to Inverness is not that much less than from Edinburgh to London.

In UK terms a similar length of journey with Avanti, LNER or TPE would have a buffet and/or delivery for refreshments. Some would offer a delivery to seated option whilst others would have a trolley. With a seated offering in first class.

Looking to Europe a similar length of journey from Paris or Brussels to Amsterdam would have a buffet or trolley with a seated offering in first class.

It would seem the money spent to create a buffet on HSTs has not been well spent. Let alone the upgrade of HSTs. Still not in use after a number of years

Similar arrangements would be in place on internal journey's in France, Italy, Germany or Austria and many other countries.

 

[airantraigh]

Whatever might happen in other countries I'd say that in the UK basic catering is a fairly normal expectation on journeys longer than a couple of hours. The journey time from Edinburgh to Inverness is not that much less than from Edinburgh to London.

Meh it’s gotten to the point it’s probably easier (depends what end of the day) to get a lner service to Inverness just because of the catering. it’s annoying that Inverness isn’t great food-wise unless Costa coffee is your cup of tea

 

[92002]

Trains wouldn't be delayed, their journey times would just be extended by the need to add time. You can't avoid that without either causing a collision (not an option, obviously) or doing further doubling.


Extension of at least one loop somewhere between Newtonmore and Inverness so that it's possible for trains to pass while both are moving would be a good start. Obviously the Aviemore and Kingussie station loops do almost fulfil the purpose insofar as all trains must stop there anyway for passengers but it could be much better.

Seems we have managed to find a 1100 departure South today to run a GBRf charter train.
With no need for any extra railway being added.

 

[chuff chuff]

Seems we have managed to find a 1100 departure South today to run a GBRf charter train.
With no need for any extra railway being added.

Where's it going?

 

[92002]

Where's it going?

Coming back from Inverness to Falkirk. Then stabled at Bo'ness for overnight rest.

 

[185143]

Seems we have managed to find a 1100 departure South today to run a GBRf charter train.
With no need for any extra railway being added.

To be fair, without looking, I'd expect a Charter to have a less optimal path than a service train. So may not be feasible to run a passenger service at that time.

That said, if the demand warrants it, and I suspect in the height of summer it certainly does, the extra journey time might not that big an issue. Incentivise people to use a slower 11:00 relief with cheap advances, it already happens to an extent with other trains either side of it, as publicly advertised by ScotRail last Summer.

 

[92002]

To be fair, without looking, I'd expect a Charter to have a less optimal path than a service train. So may not be feasible to run a passenger service at that time.

That said, if the demand warrants it, and I suspect in the height of summer it certainly does, the extra journey time might not that big an issue. Incentivise people to use a slower 11:00 relief with cheap advances, it already happens to an extent with other trains either side of it, as publicly advertised by ScotRail last Summer.

As was said in the post that was replied to. It was not possible to run any more services at that time without major invedtment work On track.

Would appear to be possible without the investment work being done Massively needed for the Summer Saturday services where trains are currently filled to capacity.