Scotrail RMT strike action and possible temporary service cuts to a third of services

[matacaster]

Probably because they literally just took the one they used last time services were slashed and re-used it. What’s possibly a more interesting question is why a) this week’s TT increase wasn’t pulled when it became obvious that there wasn’t a hope in hell of delivering it b) why this carnage has been allowed to run for as long before a temporary TT was considered and c) why we’re about to head into another weekend with no idea what, if anything, especially on Sunday, will run. As has been said elsewhere, 2021’s never ending guard/TE dispute probably provides an indication that this won’t be short term.

Weren't there scottish elections quite recently? Perhaps that's why the timetable de imation has only just been Nnounced?

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if the company will be providing taxis or hotels for the night and travel the following morning to all of the people who have already got bookings for cancelled services in the evening, as they are obliged to do?

I bet they don't. It's extremely poor form.

I doubt it, they will probably rely on the "published timetable of the day" rule with regards to trains people might have booked on being removed with no alternative provided (other than saying "you can have your money back as a refund")

It will be like last year when there was hardly no Sunday services running for ~3 months, people just gave up using the railways if they wanted a long weekend and either drove or used buses.

 

[PaulMc7]

Weren't there scottish elections quite recently? Perhaps that's why the timetable de imation has only just been Nnounced?

This is more likely to be honest. The election was on the 5th and voting only started the next day.

 

[Watershed]

What’s possibly a more interesting question is why a) this week’s TT increase wasn’t pulled when it became obvious that there wasn’t a hope in hell of delivering it

You can't just 'pull' a timetable change when you have other operators involved. May's timetable will have started to be developed the best part of a year ago. With a ballot being announced shortly before the timetable change, it was far too late to make changes to the working timetable before it began. ScotRail will probably be looking to enact a reduction for the next timetable period but everything in the interim will be done on a short-term basis, which means a huge amount of work.

b) why this carnage has been allowed to run for as long before a temporary TT was considered

It takes time to create a temporary TT. Whilst you might be able to dig up previous Covid/strike timetables, you can't just snap your fingers to implement them. You need to bid them to Network Rail, have them process the timetable, make changes to allow for engineering works, and then create and distribute crew diagrams (bearing in mind that existing diagrams constrain what changes which can be made at this late stage).

I guarantee you that the people involved will have been working flat out getting it published as soon as possible.

c) why we’re about to head into another weekend with no idea what, if anything, especially on Sunday, will run

See above. Monday-Friday broadly has the same timetable each day so can be done as one job lot, Saturdays and particularly Sundays are different. So effectively you have 3 timetables to do - obviously you're going to focus first of all on the one that gets the most days sorted, i.e. Monday-Friday.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It is, but what are you going to do about it? Sue ScotRail every time they strand you?

TOCs can effectively adopt these positions with immunity. The regulator couldn't care less.

I'm not sure why you might expect the regulator to do anything. Before privatisation there was no regulator - it was a nationalised industry. The regulator was created for a private sector model, because whilst it is tolerable for such a role to enforce behaviours with private sector companies, no-one in Government wants or will tolerate a regulator that can spend Government money. That is why the original regulatory regime was de-fanged in 2005 when the Treasury was essentially bounced into signing cheques by Tom Winsor. The regulator that sits there now is a fig-leaf because although the legal structure still has open access elements, it is a publicly directed and publicly funded one, and as part of that publicly funded model, the regulator cannot be allowed unfettered power to spend Government money when things go wrong. You might think it unfair, but that is real life and I'm still amazed that anyone expects or assumes that the role would be anything different.

 

[Watershed]

I'm not sure why you might expect the regulator to do anything. Before privatisation there was no regulator - it was a nationalised industry. The regulator was created for a private sector model, because whilst it is tolerable for such a role to enforce behaviours with private sector companies, no-one in Government wants or will tolerate a regulator that can spend Government money. That is why the original regulatory regime was de-fanged in 2005 when the Treasury was essentially bounced into signing cheques by Tom Winsor. The regulator that sits there now is a fig-leaf because although the legal structure still has open access elements, it is a publicly directed and publicly funded one, and as part of that publicly funded model, the regulator cannot be allowed unfettered power to spend Government money when things go wrong. You might think it unfair, but that is real life and I'm still amazed that anyone expects or assumes that the role would be anything different.

The regulator should be enforcing the EU passenger rights legislation much more rigorously. The government retained it in law post-Brexit and has shown no intention of revoking it.

The CAA has, somewhat reluctantly, taken action to force airlines to comply with their passenger rights obligations in the event of disruption and crises. And for as long as there are open access operators (whose continued existence the government professes to support) there will need to be an "independent" regulator - who will have to uniformly enforce the law.

At the moment they seem to be choosing not to enforce it at all, but the mere fact that the government carries the revenue risk doesn't mean that operators can be let off the hook for stranding passengers.

 

[thedbdiboy]

The difference being that the airlines are not Government owned or bankrolled. You have correctly identified why legally a regulator needs to exist; but regardless of the rights or wrongs I see very little chance of any concerted action of the type called for.

 

[Watershed]

The difference being that the airlines are not Government owned or bankrolled. You have correctly identified why legally a regulator needs to exist; but regardless of the rights or wrongs I see very little chance of any concerted action of the type called for.

Unfortunately I concur. The CAA action largely only occurred because of political pressure. That does not make it correct, and if the ORR did choose to act, there would be little the government could (publicly) do about it.

 

[duffers2324]

Just doing a little bit of digging into some of the services that run/didnt run on my local line, the Maryhill line particularly round the peak today around 4 til 6 o clock say, i have checked RTT i the train i travelled on is not shown, which was the 1706 from Anniesland due to arrive Glasgow Queen St at 1728 also as you will see from this it says cancelled:http://timetablehistory.com/times.aspx?uid=Y60671&date=20220518

Now that might not be too unusual, though also looking at the stock for the return at 1735 from Glasgow back to Anniesland, it says it was run by 158710 where as the train i was on was a 170, again which would have been the return trip, Now granted i know that it could have easily been a set swap at that time.

the other thing though that is interesting is that the 1628 from Anniesland ran arrived at Glasgow Queen St at 1654 and i assume was supposed to do the 1704 back to Anniesland but alas this is one of the services that DID get cancelled, now granted it could have been that the driver had he taken that train back to Anniesland could have gone over his working hours etc, but that set sat in Queen St for over an hour before departing back out at 1803 again on an Anniesland turn, so it could very well have run and still got back for 1803 to do this next turn but as i say was it really just a case of the driver bringing the train in at 1654 couldnt do the next turn as he would have gone over his hours, hence the missing 1704 GLQ to ANL and 1732 ANL to GLQ return.

GLQ=Glasgow Queen St
ANL=Anniesland

 

[scotrail170407]

I don’t know if this was directly as a result of the driver shortages but 2 (yes two) diagrams on the E&G on Wednesday were covered by 170s instead of 385s


170395 operated:

1R95 1716 Edinburgh - Glasgow
1R08 1815 Glasgow - Edinburgh

Realtime Trains | 1R95 1717 Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street | 18/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 1R95 1717 departure from Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street on 18/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

170433:

1R29 2115 Edinburgh - Glasgow
1R38 2215 Glasgow - Edinburgh
1R45 2315 Edinburgh - Glasgow

Realtime Trains | 1R29 2117 Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street | 18/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 1R29 2117 departure from Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street on 18/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Although something tells me this was more likely due to poor planning in the timetable where there wasn’t enough 385s available to cover all their diagrams? A single 170 on rush hour E&G services is remarkable in 2022 in itself nevermind there being 2 seperate diagrams being covered!

 

[Wolfie]

Yet again the railway is shown to be the true embarrassment it is. The service is there for passengers. As soon as the railway man up and get these deluded unions into line the better. It is no wonder people use alternative modes to get from A - B. How that industry can go home at night and say they have done a good job is totally beyond me

What a ridiculous post showing absolutely zero understanding of the causes of the situation. I say that having been, wrongly in my view, labelled as a union knocker myself on this site.

It is, but what are you going to do about it? Sue ScotRail every time they strand you?

TOCs can effectively adopt these positions with immunity. The regulator couldn't care less.

Re your first para: Absolutely.

 

[Bill57p9]

Am I reading the temporary timetable correctly that there's no train from Fort William back to Glasgow after the 11.40am?

How temporary is temporary? I due to be travelling on the 21st June and was planning to be on the 5.16pm?

There is the 1950 Caledonian Sleeper Fort William to Glasgow, which connects off the 1815 from Mallaig (though seat reservations are compulsory on this).

Which brings me onto another disappointment with the ScotRail announcement: the published timetables appear to ignore other operators, with the exception of services between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.
I will accept that the Jacobite isn't "public transport" however to overlook the daily LNER services to Glasgow Central and Inverness, XC to Glasgow Central and the Caledonian Sleeper services which allow journeys within Scotland is simply misleading.

 

[Deltic1961]

At least Dyce station got a feature on Reporting Scotland. We're famous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jagardner1984]

Ironically given this discussion is about a pay rise - one could argue the result of Scotrail recruiting more and offering less rest day working will result in a net decrease to take home pay for those who did it regularly.

I hope this is resolved soon. I do think in the context of inflation at 9% - rail workers do deserve a pay settlement that recognises this.

Equally I hope nationalisation (which the rail unions have long campaigned for) isn’t now a tool to hold the travelling public to ransom every few months by attempting to embarrass ministers and officials (whoever happens to be in charge).

In my view those who suffer most will always be those for whom work from home is but a distant dream, workers who are often in the lowest paid and most marginal jobs in the economy, travelling at the extremes of the working day.

And without regular, safe, clean services that reflect our 24 hour economy, the railways will of course play a lesser role on the path towards Net Zero, which will quickly have far greater economic consequences for all of us than whether a pay rise (in any sector you happen to work) is 1 or 4 %.

 

[uglymonkey]

9% Nurses,Firefighters,Police,Teachers? Care workers? Etc etc...

 

[kez19]

There is the 1950 Caledonian Sleeper Fort William to Glasgow, which connects off the 1815 from Mallaig (though seat reservations are compulsory on this).

Which brings me onto another disappointment with the ScotRail announcement: the published timetables appear to ignore other operators, with the exception of services between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.
I will accept that the Jacobite isn't "public transport" however to overlook the daily LNER services to Glasgow Central and Inverness, XC to Glasgow Central and the Caledonian Sleeper services which allow journeys within Scotland is simply misleading.

That was the first thing I spotted for the Aberdeen line, nothing was listed for XC/LNER (possibly not wanting competition or failed to acknowledge)

 

[Ex-controller]

That was the first thing I spotted for the Aberdeen line, nothing was listed for XC/LNER (possibly not wanting competition or failed to acknowledge)

I think it’s more to do with producing the documents in a hurry.

EDIT: Although given much of ScotRail management’s behaviour during this dispute, you’d put nothing past them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The regulator should be enforcing the EU passenger rights legislation much more rigorously. The government retained it in law post-Brexit and has shown no intention of revoking it.
The CAA has, somewhat reluctantly, taken action to force airlines to comply with their passenger rights obligations in the event of disruption and crises. And for as long as there are open access operators (whose continued existence the government professes to support) there will need to be an "independent" regulator - who will have to uniformly enforce the law.
At the moment they seem to be choosing not to enforce it at all, but the mere fact that the government carries the revenue risk doesn't mean that operators can be let off the hook for stranding passengers.

Actually, the government appears to be preparing to modify the (domestic) ex-EU passenger rights regime for airlines to be more like the current rail conditions.
That's to avoid compensation being well above ticket prices.
No change for EU flights, as the EU rules will still apply.
Will be part of the upcoming Transport Act apparently.

 

[kez19]

I think it’s more to do with producing the documents in a hurry.

EDIT: Although given much of ScotRail management’s behaviour during this dispute, you’d put nothing past them.

Even if it was done in a hurry surely the other services should have been listed? It’s a first time I’ve seen none of the competitors being mentioned.

I had to double check LNER to see if the times were still the same (still are luckily with a minor adjustment in the afternoon from Dundee).

 

[Falcon1200]

Likely a shortage of Ayr drivers that have had that impact. If a driver diagram has to be ‘patched up’ (ie different bits worked by different drivers) then it’s easier to do so with a Neilston working given they’re away from Central for a shorter period.

A fair point of course, but it still begs the question; If the current Neilston service can run reasonably reliably this week, why can it not do the same next week ?!

Station info boards and a matching announcement this evening said “Last trains may be cancelled and alternative transport may not be available” so it seems stranding passengers is now policy.

It is a very poor show cancelling trains on an ad hoc basis, even worse when no alternative is provided, but that is the purpose of the Emergency TT from next week; The service is advertised to end at a certain time so a passenger turning up say at Glasgow Central at 2000 next Monday for a train to Neilston will be in the same boat as someone expecting such a service at 2345 tonight, trains are simply not booked to run then.

What I would question is the logic of running a half-hourly service until around 2000 and then abandoning it altogether, rather than say reducing services to hourly off-peak but running for the full day. When my MSP responds to my email I will make this point.

Or people just won't go to leisure activities where they have no way of getting home easily.

That is what I will do; I have two concerts in Glasgow booked, one next month which I can now not get home by train from, and I was considering attending two others; Not any more....

 

[Christmas]

9% Nurses,Firefighters,Police,Teachers? Care workers? Etc etc...

In previous years ScotRail were happy to give staff pay rises that were around 3.5% or RPI, whichever was greater. The writing was on the wall really when it was announced pretty late in the day that ScotRail would be subject to the public sector pay limitations. The unions should have lept on this at the time.

On another note, the title of this thread is unnecessarily attributing the current situation to the RMT when their members really have nothing to do with the temporary timetables.

I see that Dunfermline is to be made a city as part of the Queen's Jubilee, although historically it already says that it is one. Will Inter7City now have to be rebranded as Inter8City? (Feel free to shift this if it's not relevant)

 

[hexagon789]

Will Inter7City now have to be rebranded as Inter8City?

As the HSTs don't serve Dunfermline, I suspect they can get away with it...

 

[Robertj21a]

In previous years ScotRail were happy to give staff pay rises that were around 3.5% or RPI, whichever was greater. The writing was on the wall really when it was announced pretty late in the day that ScotRail would be subject to the public sector pay limitations. The unions should have lept on this at the time.

On another note, the title of this thread is unnecessarily attributing the current situation to the RMT when their members really have nothing to do with the temporary timetables.

I see that Dunfermline is to be made a city as part of the Queen's Jubilee, although historically it already says that it is one. Will Inter7City now have to be rebranded as Inter8City? (Feel free to shift this if it's not relevant)

Why shouldn't Scotrail be subject to the public sector pay limitations ?

 

[Walter Whigham]

It has been widely reported in the press that it typically takes 18 months to train a driver from scratch to being fully competent to operate on his or her own. I suspect that this is an exaggeration. Can anyone advise the length of time in Scotrail for training from scratch to being fully competent?

 

[Dieseldriver]

It has been widely reported in the press that it typically takes 18 months to train a driver from scratch to being fully competent to operate on his or her own. I suspect that this is an exaggeration. Can anyone advise the length of time in Scotrail for training from scratch to being fully competent?

Can’t speak on behalf of Scotrail but I’d say in normal circumstances it would take 11 - 16 months to fully train a Driver up (depending on what type of depot/number of routes and traction).

 

[John Bishop]

It has been widely reported in the press that it typically takes 18 months to train a driver from scratch to being fully competent to operate on his or her own. I suspect that this is an exaggeration. Can anyone advise the length of time in Scotrail for training from scratch to being fully competent?

Depends on depot but in some places just now 18 months is optimistic! Normal times about 12-15 months in Scotrail. Still a huge backlog in the system with a shortage of DIs just to hinder matters. There are some trainees still to pass out some 2+ years in the company.

 

[43066]

Can’t speak on behalf of Scotrail but I’d say in normal circumstances it would take 11 - 16 months to fully train a Driver up (depending on what type of depot/number of routes and traction).

I’d agree with that usually.

That said these are extraordinary times and I’m aware there are trainees at some TOCs who have been training for over two years due to time spent waiting for instructors etc. during Covid.

 

[Christmas]

It has been widely reported in the press that it typically takes 18 months to train a driver from scratch to being fully competent to operate on his or her own. I suspect that this is an exaggeration. Can anyone advise the length of time in Scotrail for training from scratch to being fully competent?

I don't know why anyone would question this or think that it is misleading. As mentioned, it's all relative, depending on which depot the trainees are sent to. Some depots have one type of traction to learn and a couple of routes, so naturally this will be at the lower end of the scale. Other depots have 7 or 8 types of traction to learn and a dozen routes so this will take longer. Some trainees take slightly longer than others to pick things up, then again some are complete naturals and pass out quickly. Corners cannot be cut, despite the general assumption that a monkey can drive a train.

 

[Watershed]

It has been widely reported in the press that it typically takes 18 months to train a driver from scratch to being fully competent to operate on his or her own. I suspect that this is an exaggeration. Can anyone advise the length of time in Scotrail for training from scratch to being fully competent?

That figure sounds realistic to me. Particularly when you bear in mind the snail-like pace of recruitment in the rail industry!

 

[Dieseldriver]

I don't know why anyone would question this or think that it is misleading. As mentioned, it's all relative, depending on which depot the trainees are sent to. Some depots have one type of traction to learn and a couple of routes, so naturally this will be at the lower end of the scale. Other depots have 7 or 8 types of traction to learn and a dozen routes so this will take longer. Some trainees take slightly longer than others to pick things up, then again some are complete naturals and pass out quickly. Corners cannot be cut, despite the general assumption that a monkey can drive a train.

‘That’s ridiculous, doesn’t take that long to learn to drive a car, and Train Drivers don’t even have to steer’
‘Don’t need route knowledge to drive a road vehicle, surely a train just follows the rails’…..