westcoaster
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Just went past selhurst and there was a 171401 (4 car)being washed.
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Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern
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tsr
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That one has been out a fair bit during the last week or two, though interestingly there have been at least a couple of 10 coach formations at times which have been formed solely of original /7 and /8 series units, with the newer ones either on depot or working solo / in shorter formations.
There have been a couple of issues so far with newly-converted 171s entering passenger service from "out-berthed" remote locations away from depots, and developing quite serious faults during "prep". As a small amount of use of RTT will tell you, there are not one but two units with this type of stock diagramming this week, due to engineering works preventing some trains working overnight between Selhurst Depot and Oxted. It will be interesting to see what reliability any of the converted units will have if they do get out-berthed.
This evening didnt go well! The 16:0x and 19:0x where 2 instead of 10 (well advertised that way)
The 18:06 was due to be 10, was announced as starting from East Croydon due to a train fault, was then announced as cancelled, there was then a rumour about an 18:55 East Croydon to Crowborough, not idea if it ra. I got down to Oxted and caught the 19:08 shuttle.
Advantage of it being so packed was I couldnt fall over when it went over the kink at Edenbridge Golf Club!
The 18:06 was due to be 10, was announced as starting from East Croydon due to a train fault, was then announced as cancelled, there was then a rumour about an 18:55 East Croydon to Crowborough, not idea if it ra. I got down to Oxted and caught the 19:08 shuttle.
Advantage of it being so packed was I couldnt fall over when it went over the kink at Edenbridge Golf Club!
ha ha i know the kink!
I was doing the 18.07 shuttle.
They did eventually run that 18.55 East Croydon to Crowborough....... as 1Z55.......... right behind your 4 car, and it was mostly empty so it was basically pointless!
WOnder if it was a scotrail unit at fault again.
SpacePhoenix
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Is there any common area/system that keeps getting the faults in the ex-Scotrail sets?
Cab doors are one issue
The inbound working for the 18:06 picked up a fault at South Croydon and went empty to Selhurst (presumably for detachment of whatever unit had the fault).
171804+171723 worked 1Z55 as I saw the return working.
Whole set of workings below. Seems that the 15:08 to Uckfield was broadly fine then the return was terminated at South Croydon in platform 4 to keep it out of the way.
1E41 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70700/2016/09/26/advanced
1E48 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70708/2016/09/26/advanced
5E48 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O30744/2016/09/26/advanced
5E55 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O30748/2016/09/26/advanced
1Z55 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O30766/2016/09/26/advanced
1E60 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W70721/2016/09/26/advanced
The 171/7s at the London end yesterday were:
171730 (worked 20:34 London Bridge to East Croydon with 171803)
171722 (worked the diagram that starts with 15:38 London Bridge to Uckfield, two Uckfield to Oxted shuttles and returns to London Bridge around 20:20)
171723 (worked 19:33 Uckfield to London Bridge with 171804)
I also saw 171801 on 20:04 Uckfield to London Bridge.
So alas, did not see any of the former Scotrail units.
For some reason 171730 was detached from 171803 at London Bridge so had to be put back together again before the 20:34 to East Croydon departed.
I was working that 20 34 from London Bridge. Poor information resulted in me not being told what platform it was going on (my workings show the 171722 that I bought into platform 10, due at 20.21..arrived20.33, was meant to form the 20.34.)
Was also not told that these units needed to be attached until I got to the train.
171401 was part of a 10 car earlier...the 14.08 and 17.08 departures from London Bridge. 730 and 803 were the other units in that ensemble
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tsr
Established Member
Unfortunately more issues yesterday. 1E10 0705 Uckfield-London Bridge was cancelled throughout due to some sort of issue before it left the depot. 1E58 1900 Uckfield-London Bridge stopped at Upper Warlingham for 20mins with an engine issue, trapping several other trains, and was declared a failure at East Croydon.
Yep, the cab doors (apparently all of them have had issues at some point); aircon (there is no hopper window backup); toilet issues; the engines (one or two have failed on prep from time to time - and when the ones on the ex-Scottish units fail, the train must be taken out of public service and sent back to Selhurst - they don't cross-feed electrical power between coaches, which includes the interlock circuits); and a couple of other things which are more sporadic.
Yep, the cab doors (apparently all of them have had issues at some point); aircon (there is no hopper window backup); toilet issues; the engines (one or two have failed on prep from time to time - and when the ones on the ex-Scottish units fail, the train must be taken out of public service and sent back to Selhurst - they don't cross-feed electrical power between coaches, which includes the interlock circuits); and a couple of other things which are more sporadic.
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1E58 was me! An engine stopped and restarted again fine but the fault lights wouldn't clear. It wasn't help by having no relief conductor at East Croydon.
Ran empties to LBG for a stock change that didn't happen. So ran back empties to Selhurst Depot.
The delay at upper Warlingham could've been a lot shorted but for our fleet control being quite warey about the recent problems with these scotrail ones.
scotraildriver
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Can I ask, have the drivers been issued with a copy of the original Adtranz traction/fault finding manual that goes with these units? The reason I ask is that alot of these faults that are described do happen here as well to the rest of the batch but don't generally require a set to be removed from service.
If an engine is out interlock is maintained provided the engine is isolated and the passenger doors are locked using the S10 switch and a carriage key. 170407 ran about with its centre car isolated all day yesterday. OK its a coach short but better than a cancellation. Different if its an end car then headlights are lost and it has to go out of service.
The fault lights which remain after an unexpected engine stop and restart can be cleared by tripping and resetting the engine control MCB's in the body end cupboard.
Hopefully these units will settle down in due course - it is surprising to see all this after they have operated so successfully here for 16 years.
If an engine is out interlock is maintained provided the engine is isolated and the passenger doors are locked using the S10 switch and a carriage key. 170407 ran about with its centre car isolated all day yesterday. OK its a coach short but better than a cancellation. Different if its an end car then headlights are lost and it has to go out of service.
The fault lights which remain after an unexpected engine stop and restart can be cleared by tripping and resetting the engine control MCB's in the body end cupboard.
Hopefully these units will settle down in due course - it is surprising to see all this after they have operated so successfully here for 16 years.
it wouldnt surprise me if southern didnt even know this......!!! I will pass this on to my manager.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Please confirm:
If an engine is out and the battery runs out, interlock can be maintained by locking out coaches with the s10 switch and carriage key......
What if its the coach you are driving from?.... will there still be power to the driving controls etc......
With us, if you have to lock out the centre car (of 3) that means the train has to be taken out of service anyway because with that coach out of use, the front and rear carriages would be on their own with no other carriages to go to in case of an emergency....
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scotraildriver
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Yes - the engine must be isolated at the solebar switch as well. If the isolation switch is on the brakes apply when the batteries go flat. The s10 switch and carriage key lock combined will allow interlock to be maintained. We are still allowed passengers with the middle car isolated. It's no different to a single car class 153 or a 156/158 with a coach isolated. Obviously Southern have different rules.
With regards to the air con these units were modified a few years ago to include a vent only function if the air con fails. The control for this is at the bottom of the body end cupboard and is hard to see without kneeling on the floor. This provides forced ventilation of outside air and normally cools quite effectively when moving at speed. Certainly not a reasonable to fail a unit.
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I drive a variant of these everyday and have many questions but never really have the time to ask or I get the "I'll find out response". Never got a proper traction manual guide, just a basic where stuff is and a days walk around the unit.
If there is an engine fault on a vehicle, I've reset it (depending on which version it is) either dragging the fault module out and pushing the reset button in there or the powerpack reset button on the later versions to clear the train fault light. Failing that I'll turn the engine off, trip out Engine 1, 2 and local control wait and fire it up again. A fitter once told me to note the fault code but I have no idea how to read them.
If the engine won't start, I'll isolate it for it to crossfeed* and to remove the engine stop light. *later models
What's an S10 switch?
If there is an engine fault on a vehicle, I've reset it (depending on which version it is) either dragging the fault module out and pushing the reset button in there or the powerpack reset button on the later versions to clear the train fault light. Failing that I'll turn the engine off, trip out Engine 1, 2 and local control wait and fire it up again. A fitter once told me to note the fault code but I have no idea how to read them.
If the engine won't start, I'll isolate it for it to crossfeed* and to remove the engine stop light. *later models
What's an S10 switch?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Single 153s aren't banned!
Very surprised 170s can't deal with an engine out without losing services - 15x on which they are based can!
15x are basic things though Neil! 
On 170s the batteries would never be able to power the AC which I think needs 440v to power it but needs to vent at a lower power throughout the carriage due to lack of windows. With the exception of 158/9s, there is no AC.
The only other major difference between the two types is the 170 doors are powered by electric and the 15x are air powered.
I've driven a 170 with an engine isolated for 4 hours, other than the loss of lights in the centre vehicle by the third hour and the obvious loss of speed it wasn't an issue. Likewise with a 15x. Loss of lights eventually inside the carriage but still finished it's trip.
On 170s the batteries would never be able to power the AC which I think needs 440v to power it but needs to vent at a lower power throughout the carriage due to lack of windows. With the exception of 158/9s, there is no AC.
The only other major difference between the two types is the 170 doors are powered by electric and the 15x are air powered.
I've driven a 170 with an engine isolated for 4 hours, other than the loss of lights in the centre vehicle by the third hour and the obvious loss of speed it wasn't an issue. Likewise with a 15x. Loss of lights eventually inside the carriage but still finished it's trip.
tsr
Established Member
Aha, I was just told it was stopped at Upper Warlingham and then cancelled at East Croydon due to an engine fault! Seems someone oversimplified things at some point.
I've not checked on the ex-170s, as it happens, but the "original" 171s certainly should have a number of the key pages from the manufacturer's traction manuals in a little folder inside at least one of the bodyend cupboards, including a checklist for engine issues. So it is at least available when needed - in theory.
I believe this has been considered and for some reason might no longer be possible. It may be something to do with making sure the door control systems are compatible with other 171s.
There are now only a couple of units where this is relevant anyway - on the re-formed 171/2s you'd have problems with any engine failures anyway, as they're just 2 coach units.
You would be able to run around with a centre coach isolated on a 171/4, but the adjacent driving coach would have to be locked out of use as the local fire regulations require there to be an adjacent coach as an escape route in an emergency. IMO this is much more sensible than the alternative when in third-rail territory, where evacuation poses that extra element of risk.
Yes, sometimes... other times they'll only reset when changing ends, or by restarting all the engines, or if you trip the fourth circuit breaker from the right on a Tuesday when the full moon is near. Unfortunately something has muddied the waters somewhere and I've been finding it's not nearly as clear-cut as it should be.
That's interesting to know, though I've not seen any vent functions and I've had a good look round. Unfortunately these units are obviously often rammed solid for a good chunk of their journeys, often crawling along behind delayed stopping services, and they will still become passenger greenhouses.
Having experienced both 377s and "original" 171s with totally dead aircon in the peak in the height of a heatwave, I can tell you that even the most robust contingency arrangements (opening windows, moving vulnerable people if you can fit them somewhere else, arranging water etc.) are still sometimes inadequate and it's simply not healthy for people to remain onboard.
If it's anything like 171s, then the only relevant thing I can think of will be a number on a digital LCD segment display, showing from 1-99 with an associated meaning. It may well be useful for fleet but, I'll be honest, I've never heard of anyone using them for diagnostics on the ground.
Yes, well, the problem is that the original 171s crossfeed automatically, whether or not an engine's isolated, but sadly the converted ex-170s don't do it at all.
A manual two-position switch used to turn the electronic controls on and off for any specific set of passenger doors.
You'd never get 3 hours of lighting out of the batteries on a 171.
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we have been told not to pull out that fault module to reset the light.
Not sure if the carriage I was in this evening was an old Scotrail one or not, but the a/c and toilet werent working and the row of lights above my head were out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So this morning one train was 2 carriages short and one 4, this evening the 18:06 from LBG was 2 short which became irrelevant when it failed in the platform and we were booted off to late to catch an alternative service.
It seems that reliability of the diesel units is truly awful at present. Are the failures all linked and what are Southern doing to improve reliability?
On a related point if the timetable is being fully operated what spare stock do they have now? Is it still one unit?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So this morning one train was 2 carriages short and one 4, this evening the 18:06 from LBG was 2 short which became irrelevant when it failed in the platform and we were booted off to late to catch an alternative service.
It seems that reliability of the diesel units is truly awful at present. Are the failures all linked and what are Southern doing to improve reliability?
On a related point if the timetable is being fully operated what spare stock do they have now? Is it still one unit?
The diesel fleet is now 12 2-cars and 8 4-cars. Seems to me that it is intended that the 1608, 1708 and 1806 from London Bridge should be 10-car on a 3-hour repeat, then there are the two units doing Oxted to Uckfield shuttles, one 2-car (1538) and one 4-car (1638). Then 4 2-cars for the hourly Ashford to Brighton and 1 2-car for the peak Rye shuttles.
I make that 3+1+4+1 = 9 2-cars and 6+1 = 7 4-cars needed. Assuming there is a spare on the Marsh, should be two 2-cars and 1 4-car at Selhurst. Have I missed anything? Lengthening of 1538 from London Bridge to 2x2-car?
Is this right?
Looked at another way, isn't it the case that two services have been extended by 4-cars and one by a 2-car?
I make that 3+1+4+1 = 9 2-cars and 6+1 = 7 4-cars needed. Assuming there is a spare on the Marsh, should be two 2-cars and 1 4-car at Selhurst. Have I missed anything? Lengthening of 1538 from London Bridge to 2x2-car?
Is this right?
Looked at another way, isn't it the case that two services have been extended by 4-cars and one by a 2-car?
The 15.38 was 2x2 car once last week.
Mordac
Established Member
Have there been any news about what Southern plans to do with 170416-420, the five 170s they're still subleasing to Scotrail? If they don't want them anymore, I'm sure there'd be no shortage of takers for them...
swt class 450
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I was wondering the same thing. If they do still take them they might be able to extend all of the Brighton to Ashford International line trains to four coaches (which would be very useful as people are often unable to board these trains due to overcrowding in peak hours).
Class377/5
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Not taking them. They aren't brilliant units.
Note GTR talk in the Thameslink 2018 timetable consultation about its ideas for the Marshlink.
scotraildriver
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416 has just returned from refurbishment and repaint so looks like its staying here for now.
The mystery is why they aren't brilliant units. They appear to still be travelling around Scotrail without issue but it appears in Sussex you are lucky if they can do a return journey without a failure. Indeed this morning we had an announcement "cab door not shut".
Mordac
Established Member
Thanks! So Scotrail is keeping yet even more 170s than as of the previous announcement, by the looks of it?
the cab doors do seem to be an issue. It seems like they REALLY need to be slammed hard closed!!!!! This isnt needed on the air assisted original southern 171s
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