Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[physics34]

It would be a little narrower. Not much though. I bet if you asked drivers that sign both which cab they prefer between the 171 and the 377 they'd go for the diesel!

i sign both.

171 cabs are like a greenhouse in the summer , but 377 cabs are claustrophobic and make you feel a bit sleepy in a strange type of way.

The 170/171 cab wins though for the views and the space in the cab.

 

[scotraildriver]

Allegedly, they all need new engines and wheelsets, they came down from scotland with many faults.

Maybe these got overhauled a fair while ago.

At least one of them had brand new bogies before it left. It lay at Haymarket unused for a few weeks after they were fitted. The engines are replaced by Bombardier on a mileage basis so these 4 were subject to the same as any others. Personally I have had very few issues with our 170's, these 4 included, so I dont really see this being true.

 

[physics34]

At least one of them had brand new bogies before it left. It lay at Haymarket unused for a few weeks after they were fitted. The engines are replaced by Bombardier on a mileage basis so these 4 were subject to the same as any others. Personally I have had very few issues with our 170's, these 4 included, so I dont really see this being true.

im just quoting a source who works within Selhurst depot. Im not sure of the mileage they did in scotland. Maybe its because the work they will do down here is more intense.

 

[Chrisgr31]

i Maybe its because the work they will do down here is more intense.

They'll certainly be worked hard by Southern, although I suppose in theory the extra units should mean on average they all do less as I assume its only the peak services that are being increased in length.

 

[tsr]

A couple of miscellaneous responses to this thread:

171 cabs are quite wide and spacious but they also have their downsides. They do not have power sockets like the newer 377s (and I presume 387s). The emergency stop buttons and GSM-R red buttons are in quite awkward places which are reasonably easy to knock if you are on a wobbly bit of track (see also: the Cowden area!). And the desk on the second-man's side is sloped a bit awkwardly and is too high for you to rest paperwork on whilst sitting down. Several of these things could be addressed by a cab rebuild to make them similar to a 377/6 onwards, but not all.

As for 377 cabs making people strangely sleepy, I've somehow always attributed that to not just the dark central section where the gangway equipment is, but also to the air con. I may be wrong, though.

Regarding the ex-Scotrail ex-170s, obviously they are being reformed and I believe the interior is meant to look pretty similar to the existing 171s, so both of those jobs are fairly large without considering what's below the sole bar. I should imagine the Door Deselect system will need pretty decent testing to ensure that it all works well on reformed units. What I have heard is that some of the electrical equipment is in a bit of a bad way and needs at the very least some repairs, and I believe this is engine related, but I do not know any further details at all. I could be wrong here, but that's just hearsay for you, really!

I would expect that many of the units will see approximately similar use if they are simply being added to current services. And, as posted on here somewhere before, remember that many of the 171 consists do at least two peak-time return journeys in each peak, so they are not just doing one trip to London and back each day. It would be lovely if units could be stabled in the Uckfield area as I have a feeling that could help reduce mileage and costs, somehow. But I don't think that's going to happen!

 

[92002]

A couple of miscellaneous responses to this thread:

171 cabs are quite wide and spacious but they also have their downsides. They do not have power sockets like the newer 377s (and I presume 387s). The emergency stop buttons and GSM-R red buttons are in quite awkward places which are reasonably easy to knock if you are on a wobbly bit of track (see also: the Cowden area!). And the desk on the second-man's side is sloped a bit awkwardly and is too high for you to rest paperwork on whilst sitting down. Several of these things could be addressed by a cab rebuild to make them similar to a 377/6 onwards, but not all.

As for 377 cabs making people strangely sleepy, I've somehow always attributed that to not just the dark central section where the gangway equipment is, but also to the air con. I may be wrong, though.

Regarding the ex-Scotrail ex-170s, obviously they are being reformed and I believe the interior is meant to look pretty similar to the existing 171s, so both of those jobs are fairly large without considering what's below the sole bar. I should imagine the Door Deselect system will need pretty decent testing to ensure that it all works well on reformed units. What I have heard is that some of the electrical equipment is in a bit of a bad way and needs at the very least some repairs, and I believe this is engine related, but I do not know any further details at all. I could be wrong here, but that's just hearsay for you, really!

I would expect that many of the units will see approximately similar use if they are simply being added to current services. And, as posted on here somewhere before, remember that many of the 171 consists do at least two peak-time return journeys in each peak, so they are not just doing one trip to London and back each day. It would be lovely if units could be stabled in the Uckfield area as I have a feeling that could help reduce mileage and costs, somehow. But I don't think that's going to happen!

The 170s in Scotland regularly exceed 1000 miles a day.

There will soon be pacers and 15Xs on the market for these shorter trips fir commuters.

 

[physics34]

A couple of miscellaneous responses to this thread:

171 cabs are quite wide and spacious but they also have their downsides. They do not have power sockets like the newer 377s (and I presume 387s). The emergency stop buttons and GSM-R red buttons are in quite awkward places which are reasonably easy to knock if you are on a wobbly bit of track (see also: the Cowden area!). And the desk on the second-man's side is sloped a bit awkwardly and is too high for you to rest paperwork on whilst sitting down. Several of these things could be addressed by a cab rebuild to make them similar to a 377/6 onwards, but not all.

As for 377 cabs making people strangely sleepy, I've somehow always attributed that to not just the dark central section where the gangway equipment is, but also to the air con. I may be wrong, though.

Regarding the ex-Scotrail ex-170s, obviously they are being reformed and I believe the interior is meant to look pretty similar to the existing 171s, so both of those jobs are fairly large without considering what's below the sole bar. I should imagine the Door Deselect system will need pretty decent testing to ensure that it all works well on reformed units. What I have heard is that some of the electrical equipment is in a bit of a bad way and needs at the very least some repairs, and I believe this is engine related, but I do not know any further details at all. I could be wrong here, but that's just hearsay for you, really!

I would expect that many of the units will see approximately similar use if they are simply being added to current services. And, as posted on here somewhere before, remember that many of the 171 consists do at least two peak-time return journeys in each peak, so they are not just doing one trip to London and back each day. It would be lovely if units could be stabled in the Uckfield area as I have a feeling that could help reduce mileage and costs, somehow. But I don't think that's going to happen!

Hopefully by next year all uckfield line platforms will be extented to 10 Car which will mean the door deselect will almost be defunct. 2 out of the 3 off peak 171s on the uckfield line are currently 2 car so I'd expect these to become 4's.

There is a system on the 171s which is not on the early 170s.... Crossfeeding of power between coaches. If an engine fails that coach gets 50% power for its electronics from another coach. I think this will have to be installed in the 4 units.

 

[158722]

The 170s in Scotland regularly exceed 1000 miles a day.

There will soon be pacers and 15Xs on the market for these shorter trips fir commuters.

I'm glad someone mentioned the hammering that the 170s have had day in, day out since their introduction in Scotland from 1999/2000 onwards. The hourly grind of the E&G expresses with 100mph sprints in between 2 or 3 station stops, 20 hour diagrams covering the quoted 1000 miles per day up to Aberdeen and Inverness, all done in a climate far less favourable than the warmer and dryer south east. Its not really a surprise that the SR 170 fleet is a little tired, a couple of peak time runs in and out of London morning and evening will be like semi-retirement for the ex-SR ones!

 

[03_179]

170422 currently inside Selhurst Level 5 Shed.

 

[physics34]

170422 currently inside Selhurst Level 5 Shed.

still being assessed for work that needs to be done.

 

[Chrisgr31]

still being assessed for work that needs to be done.

How long does this assessment take? They travelled south four months ago, and with the platofrm lengthening planned for 11 months time they'll be out of time soon!

 

[Steve childs]

I'm glad someone mentioned the hammering that the 170s have had day in, day out since their introduction in Scotland from 1999/2000 onwards. The hourly grind of the E&G expresses with 100mph sprints in between 2 or 3 station stops, 20 hour diagrams covering the quoted 1000 miles per day up to Aberdeen and Inverness, all done in a climate far less favourable than the warmer and dryer south east. Its not really a surprise that the SR 170 fleet is a little tired, a couple of peak time runs in and out of London morning and evening will be like semi-retirement for the ex-SR ones!

Well said and i can assure anyone down south that these were quoted as been in good condition during handback. Nothing leaves the shed that is not fit to be in transit. Going through carrbridge in January at -15 show what a sterling job the engineers of Scotrail do.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

So scotrail 170's are being acquired by southern and chiltern are gaining TPE's units....

Two franchises with overloaded trains and they lose trains for other franchises, one of which currently has no work for those trains as the line is still being built.....

So who's getting shafted?

 

[TheJRB]

So scotrail 170's are being acquired by southern and chiltern are gaining TPE's units....

Two franchises with overloaded trains and they lose trains for other franchises, one of which currently has no work for those trains as the line is still being built.....

So who's getting shafted?

On the face of it, it may seem that way but I can assure you that Southern's trains that are currently 2 car 171s are far from comfortable a lot of time. These extra units will be welcome extra capacity although I hope it can benefit the Marshlink somehow at some time in the future.

I would apportion more blame to the government who, as I have said before, has stuck its head in the sand and refused to accept that we need extra DMUs and that only ordering new EMUs does not solve all the problems currently faced across the network.

 

[NotATrainspott]

So scotrail 170's are being acquired by southern and chiltern are gaining TPE's units....

Two franchises with overloaded trains and they lose trains for other franchises, one of which currently has no work for those trains as the line is still being built.....

So who's getting shafted?

ScotRail doesn't need as many DMUs now because the Scottish electrification programme has successfully converted several lines to EMU operation. As nice as it would be to hold on to the DMUs, there's no need to have as many given that Paisley Canal, Whifflet, Springburn-Cumbernauld and Motherwell-Cumbernauld are electric. The number of DMUs needed is going to drop considerably again in the next few year so there really isn't a vast amount of shafting going on in Scotland.

 

[physics34]

How long does this assessment take? They travelled south four months ago, and with the platofrm lengthening planned for 11 months time they'll be out of time soon!

they are allegedly in poor condition..... underframe rust for starters. Wheelsets and engines need major overhaul and the reforming and also some rewiring to make these compatable with southern 171s means they will take a while to be completed.

A driver who i as speaking to yesterday claims that he heard that the units need too much work and are going back to scotrail and alternatives found elsewhere. This may well be far fetched.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

they are allegedly in poor condition..... underframe rust for starters. Wheelsets and engines need major overhaul and the reforming and also some rewiring to make these compatable with southern 171s means they will take a while to be completed.

Would the state they're in basically mean stripping them downto the bare bodyshell and stripping the engines right down?

 

[D365]

Would the state they're in basically mean stripping them downto the bare bodyshell and stripping the engines right down?

Seems as if you like the idea of stripping a unit down to the bare bodyshell

Forgive me, but it seems as if you've made this sort of a query before

***
In all seriousness, where else would one expect to source alternative Turbostar units until further electrification is complete?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Seems as if you like the idea of stripping a unit down to the bare bodyshell

Forgive me, but it seems as if you've made this sort of a query before

***
In all seriousness, where else would one expect to source alternative Turbostar units until further electrification is complete?

Well if there's underframe rust it does make you wonder if there's any other places with rust

 

[Blindtraveler]

I thought it had already been acknolledged upthread that whilst these units have indeed been worked hard and in some cases in teritory they wernt built for they wernt as clapped out as some think? Also worth noting that the oldest members of the 170 family are 15 odd years old now so a bit of overhauling is surely inevitable. Whilst Im far from a huge fan of these units, mainly think my view has been blited by many a cramped lengthy crawl up the Highland Mainline on these largely unsuitable trains, the use Southern will put them too is fine, as will the remaining Scottish units which if retained will mainly work Dundee, Perth and Fife turns. Surely its better to do the work on them now so that when they come into service they work streight out of the shop and can provide a capacity boost as well as a chance for the current 171s to have some works attention if needed? In terms of who is being shafted here, it would certainly be less of a PR disaster if these 4 units were in traffic still, allowing more 158s to be refurbished for the Borders but at the same time if the reforming and other work will take a while then its a good thing they moved when they did.

 

[scotraildriver]

Would the state they're in basically mean stripping them downto the bare bodyshell and stripping the engines right down?

The engines don't get stripped down. The whole engine "raft" is simply removed and sent to Bombardier for overhaul. Takes about 6 hours to change an engine. Similarly bogies are simply exchanged. Takes no time at all. Engines are changed on an "hours" basis as recommended by the manufacturer and wheelers on mileage. There is no chance these were beyond their limits when the units were transferred. It doesn'thappen.

 

[Domh245]

Well if there's underframe rust it does make you wonder if there's any other places with rust

Well, it'd be pretty impressive if the Aluminium bodyshell became rusty!

 

[physics34]

Well, it'd be pretty impressive if the Aluminium bodyshell became rusty!

probably more to do with fittings etc.

the word though is that they are in a bad state apparantly regardless of what our scotrail friends say.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Meanwhile two units are sitting at Stew Lane collecting dust & Uckfield line commuters are furious at the constant delays & cancellations on the route.

Quick fix, put Dellners on them (for emergency rescue) and out them out as a fixed all day 6 car. Drivers should only need a paper cab conversion, because a few months ago those units were in working order.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Meanwhile two units are sitting at Stew Lane collecting dust & Uckfield line commuters are furious at the constant delays & cancellations on the route.

Quick fix, put Dellners on them (for emergency rescue) and out them out as a fixed all day 6 car. Drivers should only need a paper cab conversion, because a few months ago those units were in working order.

A far too sensible solution!

 

[Class377/5]

How are additional units going to combat delays?

Do realise a conversion course would take time to be created, passed for and then implemented?

 

[Stats]

How are additional units going to combat delays?

Longer trains = easier to board and alight = less dwell time = better chance of meeting allocated path = less chance of knock on delays

 

[Southern Dvr]

How are additional units going to combat delays?

Do realise a conversion course would take time to be created, passed for and then implemented?

A lot of the delays are related to short formations. On top of the delays & cancellations subsequent trains were short formed and this has added to the misery.

There are very few differences between the 170s & 171s at drivers level and it should be remembered the 171s were delivered and used as 170s.

Or alternatively we can just carrying on screwing up the job down there with a can't do attitude.

 

[physics34]

Meanwhile two units are sitting at Stew Lane collecting dust & Uckfield line commuters are furious at the constant delays & cancellations on the route.

Quick fix, put Dellners on them (for emergency rescue) and out them out as a fixed all day 6 car. Drivers should only need a paper cab conversion, because a few months ago those units were in working order.

Well that's just too much common sense mate.

 

[Chrisgr31]

A lot of the delays are related to short formations. On top of the delays & cancellations subsequent trains were short formed and this has added to the misery.

There are very few differences between the 170s & 171s at drivers level and it should be remembered the 171s were delivered and used as 170s.

Or alternatively we can just carrying on screwing up the job down there with a can't do attitude.

As a passenger I cant comment on the differences between a Class 170 and 171 however the service on the Uckfield line has been awful recently and as said one of the big issues has been short formed units. Its not quite so bad when the units are shortformed in the morning as those south of Hurst Green can at least get on the train, in the evening they often cant fit on the train and can have up to an hour wait for the next train.

In addition the difficulties of boarding and leaving the train add significantly to dwell times at the stations.

Twitter is full of complaints from passengers although Southerns response is less than satisfactory as they give the impression of not really caring, well to be precise its down to management failure. A number of staff are excellent are at trying to keep passengers informed. For example it invariably falls to a driver (who's not far away!) to tweet about short formations, and to give explanations as to why they are short.

Whilst all this is happening Southern have 2 3 coach trains which presumably they are paying to hire sitting around doing nothing which has to be daft.