Scottish Sleeper early 1980s

[Dunblane80]

I have read a lot on this site about London to Scotland sleepers over the years, and there is often reference to the internal Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness sleeper service the combined at Perth. What I am interested in is ;
1) what was the usual haulage? I remember it often being class 26/27. Was that typical?
2) Did the Edinburgh leg run through fife or did it come through Stirling as well?
3) I have read that there was one mk1 1st/2nd class sleeper on each leg but what was the formation? I assume a BG or was there regular seating as well? Was this the same for both legs?
Thank you for your time and help?

 

[ac6000cw]

Having travelled on it Glasgow - Inverness in the early 1980s (as part of a Scottish railrover holiday) I think there was a least one full coach in addition to the brake vehicle and sleeper. I travelled seated for sure (as I've never travelled in a sleeping compartment).

 

[Mag_seven]

I recall being class 47 hauled in about 1982. The seated coach was a mark 2a/b/c (the type with no air con)

 

[ainsworth74]

2) Did the Edinburgh leg run through fife or did it come through Stirling as well?

Certainly in 1989 it went through Stirling. I started a thread on sleeper services and their final run down to their current extent which I started last year. You might find this portion of interest based on the May to October 1989 GBTT:

The final surprise is that as late as 1989 there were still internal Scottish sleepers! Something which I was certain had surely been consigned to the rubbish skip of history by 1989 but here we are, seven days per week:

(Image shows sleepers from Edinburgh/Glasgow Q Street to Perth where they combine and run onto Inverness)

It's also worth knowing that northbound only on Sunday to Thursday nights there were also sleeping cars conveyed on the Glasgow Queen Street portion through to Aberdeen. I'm struggling to work out what that was all about unless it was someway of trying shuffle stock around but otherwise seems an even more bizarre exercise than the fact that there were any internal sleepers still in Scotland as late as 1989! If you'd ask me before this I'd have thought they'd all gone extinct by the early 80s!!

 

[ac6000cw]

I recall being class 47 hauled in about 1982. The seated coach was a mark 2a/b/c (the type with no air con)

I think it was too when I travelled on it. By that time 37s had replaced the 26/27s on the Far North and Kyle line trains as well.

 

[ainsworth74]

Having had a look at my May 81 - June 82 GBTT it would seem the Edinburgh - Inverness sleeper service also had a call at Stirling as it did in the late 80s so would not have gone via Fife (engineering or other disruption excepted of course!).

 

[Juniper Driver]

I think it was too when I travelled on it. By that time 37s had replaced the 26/27s on the Far North and Kyle line trains as well.

I travelled on the Kyle of Localsh line in 1979 and it was a 37.I was hoping for a 26/27.

 

[Gloster]

I travelled on the Kyle of Localsh line in 1979 and it was a 37.I was hoping for a 26/27.

You must have been unlucky. 37s weren’t allocated to Inverness until the spring of 1982. (Source: Shed by Shed, Part Eight by Tony Walmsley.) Perhaps they were doing a test-run to see how the class performed.

 

[hexagon789]

I recall being class 47 hauled in about 1982. The seated coach was a mark 2a/b/c (the type with no air con)

2Z, the Mk1 sleepers allocated to the Scottish Region having vacuum brakes.

You must have been unlucky. 37s weren’t allocated to Inverness until the spring of 1982. (Source: Shed by Shed, Part Eight by Tony Walmsley.) Perhaps they were doing a test-run to see how the class performed.

Indeed, and a significant acceleration was made in 1983 and 1984 to Far North services as a result of the improved performance. The Kyle Line seemed to hold out on 26s for a little longer.

Having had a look at my May 81 - June 82 GBTT it would seem the Edinburgh - Inverness sleeper service also had a call at Stirling as it did in the late 80s so would not have gone via Fife (engineering or other disruption excepted of course!).

The routing via Stirling began with the 1982 "Tartan Taktfahrplan", with one Edinburgh/Inverness service each way being routed via Stirling instead of Fife to offer improved local connections (in fairness via Stirling was the normal routing after the Glenfarg route closed but the Ladybank line was used after 1975 with Edinburgh-Perth/Inverness trains then going via Fife again) This lasted until 1985 when all Edinburgh-Inverness trains were routed via Stirling. This changed again when the augmented Sprinter Timetable with 158s was launched giving a near two-hourly pattern Edinburgh-Inverness service.

1) what was the usual haulage? I remember it often being class 26/27. Was that typical?

In earlier years, 24/26s sometimes two or three depending on loads/requirements. 47s were more common by the early 1980s. 40s also appeared in the mid/late 1970s, operating the daytime Inverness trains sometimes, but they were preferred foe Aberdeen jobs.

Did the Edinburgh leg run through fife or did it come through Stirling as well?

Via Stirling, but the daytime services had both routings through the years.

I have read that there was one mk1 1st/2nd class sleeper on each leg but what was the formation? I assume a BG or was there regular seating as well? Was this the same for both legs?

In Mk1 days, yes. Both Glasgow and Edinburgh portions had one SLC each as the sleeping accommodation. Each then also usually had 1 or 2 TSO and a BSO for seats, plus several NDV. You had NDV to Aberdeen, to Perth, to Inverness. At one point motorail vans to Inverness were also conveyed.

Things changed when the Mk3 sleepers were introduced, formations being greatly simplified.

There were 5 circuits from 1985 -

Glasgow-Inverness
Glasgow-Aberdeen
Edinburgh-Inverness
Inverness-Glasgow
Inverness-Edinburgh

Each circuit comprised a single SLEP.

Going north the train from Glasgow-Inverness was:

BSO-TSO-TSO-SLEP-SLEP*
(* for Aberdeen)

The Edinburgh portion was identical, save having only one SLEP.

The Glasgow-Aberdeen sleeper was detached at Perth when the portions from Edinburgh and Glasgow were being combined. It was shunted into a bay platform and then left, after a reversal attached to the 0105 Perth-Dyce.

Being a unidirectional working, it returned empty in the 1105 Aberdeen-Glasgow push-pull.

The seating coaches came from Inverness' allocation for the day trains to Edinburgh and Glasgow, the BSO-TSO-TSO sets forming their own circuits separate to the remaining two vehicles these sets conveyed - TSOT, CK. The midday service from Glasgow to Inverness had its BSO-TSO-TSO set swapped with another identical set off maintenance during its layover before it returned to Glasgow.

 

[matchmaker]

I travelled Glasgow - Inverness on the sleeper in the early 1970's. 26/27 hauled with a Mk 1 TSO for the seated masochists - me included!

 

[norbitonflyer]

I used it four times in the late 70s/early 80s when track bashing the lines radiating from Inverness - the Edinburgh portion definitely went via Stirling as I once woke up at Linlithgow - unfortunately I was trying to get to Glasgow but I'd bedded down in the Edinburgh portion because it was an SK (i.e. a compartment), expecting to be woken up by the shunting when the train divided at Stirling (or was it Perth?)
Motive power usually a 47 but on one occasion a 40 I think

 

[SteveM70]

We did it once in (I think) 1981 and the haulage was a 40, which was a nice surprise. The notes with the details are sadly lost

 

[Cheshire Scot]

3) I have read that there was one mk1 1st/2nd class sleeper on each leg but what was the formation? I assume a BG or was there regular seating as well? Was this the same for both legs?

At Perth the 2 sleepers were marshalled together. This meant when the train reached Blair Atholl and met the southbound sleeper the Sleeping Car attendants (SCA) from Glasgow and Edinburgh swapped onto the southbound train whilst just one SCA was required from Inverness to Blair Atholl and return. An unusual case of SCAs working out and back to home station on the same night.
In the seventies Northbound there was typically one BG plus a couple of Mk1s and the SLC from Edinburgh and the SLC two MKis and 2 BGS from Glasgow but the shunting at Perth also included 6 BGs attached to the rear, typically making the train load 15. At Inverness some of these BGs then went forward to Wick,Thurso and Kyle.
Once the Mk3 sleepers and air braked stock were introduced the 'Perth' BGs were no longer conveyed and ran as a parcels / mail train from Perth to Inverness.
The southbound trainw was shorter as the BGs mainly returned south on an empty van train but it also conveyed a seating portion for Perth as the balancing move for passenger stock which worked on the morning Perth to Inverness mail.
Double headed cl26s was the norm in the 70s (but not 27s which only came en masse to Inverness later on) but in later years 47s took over.

 

[Juniper Driver]

You must have been unlucky. 37s weren’t allocated to Inverness until the spring of 1982. (Source: Shed by Shed, Part Eight by Tony Walmsley.) Perhaps they were doing a test-run to see how the class performed.

Honest it did happen and I was really disappointed as I hadn't seen a lot of the class 26/27s.
I will ask my uncle and his friend if he remembers the date but I'm pretty sure it was 1979.Any possibility it was a stand in loco?I'm pretry Sure I'm not that senile and even remember how breathtaking the views were and the compartment on the train we were in.Mk1?
Could it have been a 40 and I assumed it was a 37? It definetly wasnt a 26/27.
Was there any 37 workings in 1979?
Reckon it must have been in the summer but I didn't go to Skye as I was too lazy.

 

[Magdalia]

I didn't visit Scotland often, but, when I did, I made a lot of use of the "internal". Northbound I usually went "on the cushions" but southbound I usually got a sleeper berth to Glasgow, with a 0530 call from the sleeping car attendant. That just gave enough time for a pot of tea with biscuits and a quick wash and brush up before the 0600 to Mallaig. I did the sleeping car more than once when the train was still Mark Is, which was a much better experience than the MarkIII sleepers that replaced them. My recollection is that, when the sleeping cars were MarkIs, so was the seated accommodation. The MarkII seated accommodation came in with the MarkIII sleepers, when the train was of course air braked and ETH.

One oddity was that the northbound train joined at Perth but the southbound train split at Stirling. In my experience, which starts in early 1982, the only chance of getting a loco that wasn't a class 47 was on the Stirling-Edinburgh portion. This could still get a Type 2 up to the May 1983 timetable change.

The class 47s over the Highland Main Line were quite often Gateshead class 47/4s, even in the days of steam heat. Going northbound, it seemed to be at the whim of the local controllers whether the Edinburgh or Glasgow loco went forward to Inverness. This was a problem if you wanted to know the identity of the loco, because the train ran round the Rose Street curve, shunted into the Far North part of Inverness station, and the loco immediately b*gg*r*d off to the shed.

The Blair Atholl sleeping car attendant swap was well known amongst enthusiasts, and many used to go to Blair Atholl and back from/to the Central Belt. The most congested time of the day on Blair Atholl footbridge was at 02 banana in the morning.

Regarding the daytime trains to the Far North and Kyle, Inverness only had class 37s for these from the May 1982 timetable change. A class 37 to Kyle before then is extremely unlikely as the train crew would not have signed the traction.

 

[Taunton]

When I was in Edinburgh in the 1970s, colleague did a few business trips to Inverness on the sleeper. She was only entitled to second class, but said that as another unaccompanied woman was unusual, she always got the berth to herself, effectively first class.

The ScR had five Mk1 composite sleepers, allocated one each to and from Glasgow/Edinburgh each night, and one spare. The region was always very independent, and although it was prearranged to "borrow" a car from the mainstream ECML allocation at Craigentinny in case of an unserviceability, they tried where possible to use their own spare car, to the extent of bringing it down from there in the afternoon if needed.

I think by the 1970s the ECML cars were all ETH, and the WCML ones with electric haulage obviously long had been, but the Scottish cars were still steam heat, vacuum brake (as indeed were the internal Scottish locos used), B1 bogies. Unlike other Scottish internal trains, which had seasons of steam heat being off in summer, the overnight train was heated all year. I only saw the train at Edinburgh, but it seemed to have more vans than passenger coaches, and the seated accommodation was wholly side corridor, possibly an SK plus CK, and maybe more in summer. The seated first class in summer mainly seemed occupied by any American Interrailers visiting Edinburgh and Scotland with first class Interrail tickets. In wintertime it was probably empty.

I never saw the two portions being marshalled together at Perth, but apparently it occupied the two train locos from Glasgow and Edinburgh, possibly further ones if there was a loco change on to Inverness, plus the Perth 08 pilot. The various different types of stock were all remarshalled together. During this operation steam heat was obviously off, and in winter the train would become notably cold during the operation.

 

[Magdalia]

I think by the 1970s the ECML cars were all ETH,

No, ECML MarkI sleepers were steam heat only. The ECML overnight trains only went ETH when the MarkIII sleepers (and the Nightrider) came in, starting in early 1982. The reason that the Deltics retained steam heat boilers was for the sleepers.

The Leeds and Newcastle (via the coast) sleepers finished in May 1983 and were steam heat MarkIs to the end. These were the last MarkI sleepers on the ECML.

 

[ac6000cw]

This was a problem if you wanted to know the identity of the loco, because the train ran round the Rose Street curve, shunted into the Far North part of Inverness station, and the loco immediately b*gg*r*d off to the shed.

Yes, I well remember the train being propelled back into the 'Far North' platforms at Inverness when I traveled on it - with a speed born of long practice, I think.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, I well remember the train being propelled back into the 'Far North' platforms at Inverness when I traveled on it - with a speed born of long practice, I think.

This applied to many day trains as well in the 1970s - those arriving from both directions would be backed in to the "opposite side" platforms. Only the Aberdeen dmu services seemed immune to this. It obviously avoided the loco being trapped long term at the buffers.

 

[Magdalia]

This applied to many day trains as well in the 1970s - those arriving from both directions would be backed in to the "opposite side" platforms. Only the Aberdeen dmu services seemed immune to this. It obviously avoided the loco being trapped long term at the buffers.

I remember the last one in from the Far North still doing this in the early 1980s. I like to think that this was actually for the convenience of passengers, as it would be put in platform 2 next to the Edinburgh/Glasgow sleeper in platform 1.

I've read that the afternoon arrivals from the Far North and Kyle used the Rose Street curve in the days of steam, so that the arriving locos could be used to pilot the sleepers up to Slochd Summit.

 

[Taunton]

Probably as much for the convenience of transferring the considerable quantities of mails and parcels these trains used to carry. It would however be a nuisance to then get the stock back over to the "right" side for its departure, with a loco on the right end, there being notably different formations north and south of Inverness.

 

[xotGD]

On the southbound service, as the train split at Stirling rather than Perth, the portion loco was added at Perth and so it was double headed from there to Stirling. Usually a pair of 47s, but I once had a 40 + 47 pairing. Unfortunately I was in the Edinburgh portion and the 40 worked forward to Glasgow.

Full details can be found in the "Back in the Day" thread.

 

[delt1c]

Used the Inverness overnight service from Edinburgh many times in mid to late 70’s. During this time was always 24/26 or 2x 26’s. Never saw a 27 on the HML during these times. Only other traction was 40’s or 47 on the clansman.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

On the southbound service, as the train split at Stirling rather than Perth, the portion loco was added at Perth and so it was double headed from there to Stirling. Usually a pair of 47s, but I once had a 40 + 47 pairing. Unfortunately I was in the Edinburgh portion and the 40 worked forward to Glasgow.

The southbound split at Stirling was only in later years, previously the split was at Perth with the Edinburgh portion not going forward until around 07.00 attacehd to the first daytime train from Perth to Edinburgh (via Stirling) arriving around half past eight!

I never saw the two portions being marshalled together at Perth, but apparently it occupied the two train locos from Glasgow and Edinburgh, possibly further ones if there was a loco change on to Inverness, plus the Perth 08 pilot. The various different types of stock were all remarshalled together. During this operation steam heat was obviously off, and in winter the train would become notably cold during the operation.

The Glasgow portion arrived in the south part of 4 or 7 and that then loco detached and shunted the van (and latterly also sleeper) for Aberdeen. The Edinburgh portion had already arrived into north 'half' of the platform, and meantime the 08 was attaching the vans to the rear. I can't recall if the 08 then pushed the whole lot together or if the Edinburgh loco(s) or replacement pushed back onto the Glasgow section.

 

[47271]

I think that I've posted this before in relation to Scottish internal sleepers of the era but this accident report from 1983 gives coach by coach detail on the makeup of the train involved in a derailment at Pitlochry.

Accident at Pitlochry on 22nd September 1983 :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I travelled on the Kyle of Localsh line in 1979 and it was a 37.I was hoping for a 26/27.

Whilst I can not comment on this, in so far as there have often been unusual workings that were never (at the time) observed by 'enthusiasts', so in more recent times any such mention of rare events can be and are treated with some scepticism by some (been there myself, until I provided photographic evidence of such an event !), all I can say about the Highlands is that in my time there in the spring of '81, the Far North & Kyle Roads were in the hands of 26's. Although IS depot was host to some class 27s at that time, I don't believe they went North of IS, but likely worked IS-Aberdeen services? They were hitherto the mainstay of power on the West Highland Road to Fort Bill, Oban and Mallaig. However by the spring of '81 (as mentioned), on route to FW in the evening peak one day, I was met at Queen Street with an old friend from down South, in the shape of 37026 formerly of 30A, and for me the power that took me from Liv St to Kings Lynn on my last previous visit thereto.
As for sleepers, my last memory of those was an evening departure from Perth behind 40058 in Feb '78, with ZZZZZ facilities in Mk1 M2528. Always remember the steam heat hissing pipework in those Mk1 sleeper comps. A loco change at Mossend as far as I remember, saw 85037 take over for the run up to EU. Was one of the best nights kips I've ever had on a train, woke up as we passed 1A. No idea what train it was, but at Perth when I joined it, it was sitting in one of the platforms on the Dundee road side, so no idea if it started from Perth or not. Think it was a Saturday night departure, but won't swear to it!

 

[Juniper Driver]

I still believe it was a 37 because I really wanted to be hauled by a 26 or 27.I still remember being in the comparent in the train and going round the big hills.I stayed in a youth hostel in Kyle with my uncle.

 

[Gloster]

Some years previously there had been a working of a 37 to Invergordon, but I don’t know if it still operated, who crewed it and (if it was Inverness) whether they still had traction knowledge. I would be pretty certain that at that time Kyle crews did not have Class 37 traction knowledge, even if Inverness ones did. I think that you were probably unlucky in that they were doing a test run to see what sort of timings a 37 could manage on the line. As 37s were introduced a couple of years later, this seems a reasonable length of time before that to start getting the initial timings in.