Season Tickets - Outmoded Concept?

[Stew998]

It occurs to me that in this age of home and flexible working the old fashioned season ticket is beginning to look a little anachronistic in some respects.

If somebody works in an office say three days a week then while an annual season ticket might (?) just be cheaper and more convenient than a daily it rather penalises this type of worker and is really rather a waste of money. Even full time office workers are now often encouraged to work from home once a week or more as employers move to "agile working" and save on the cost of expensive empty desks. An annual season ticket is still necessary for rail travel but won't be fully utilised.

Wouldn't it be possible and more user friendly to sell blocks of journeys valid for a set period eg 20 journeys on a set route valid for six weeks? If you buy more journeys you'd get a better rate so perhaps an annual season would be replaced by (say) 200 journeys valid for 12 months for the same daily price as a 12 month season ticket.

In fact to extend it further why not an Oyster type card which could be loaded with money and would debit the cost of the best value ticket based on journeys made? Must be possible in this age of apps and algorithms surely?

Am I missing something, and is anything like this in the pipeline or available already?

 

[Hadders]

Not everyone works in an office. Many, many people still have to attend their workplace 5 days a week.

There will always be a need for a season ticket in some sort of form.

 

[AngusH]

The carnet tickets, as seen on some of the commuter routes are something similar I suppose, being a discounted bundle of tickets for a particular route.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets/ticket-types-explained/carnet-tickets

You're probably right in saying that an oyster card type system will probably end up replacing the carnet system eventually.

Season tickets might eventually disappear if everyone switched. Although I do wonder how what number of people is needed to run a season ticket system. I mean, if nobody used them, clearly it would be abandoned, but what number does it become unviable?

 

[PeterC]

Not everyone works in an office. Many, many people still have to attend their workplace 5 days a week.

There will always be a need for a season ticket in some sort of form.

And many workers who could work from home have employers who insist on them being in the office.

 

[gazthomas]

How about an increasing discount as usage over a period of time increases?

 

[deltic]

Providing heavily discounted tickets to travel at peak times is certainly anachronistic - it also a very regressive ticketing system - if you can afford an annual season ticket or has an employer who is prepared to give you an interest free loan you get a larger discount than someone who can only afford weekly tickets. Interested to hear SPT talking about people who put on the price of a day ticket every day on their Glasgow subway smartcard presumably because they are only able to budget on a daily basis. One advantage of TfL contactless is that it caps weekly charges.

The cost of public transport is dictated by peak vehicle requirements so why do we give cheap travel to those who cause the largest cost.

 

[SaveECRewards]

And many workers who could work from home have employers who insist on them being in the office.

This is a personal annoyance of mine, particularly the employer that dictates you need to be in at 9am even if there's nothing to do! Allowing more flexible working can help take the burden off the transport networks at peak times.

There's even this belief that allowing a work from home day every week (or every other week) is a reward, when in fact some people work better at home (but yes others don't, but companies need to let people work in the way they perform best).

As for the rail industry, I think some sort of smartcard based season ticket would work best. You could then buy one based on the amount of days in a week you expect to travel in. So if you pick 3 days a week you can then travel in on any three days in that week. Select 3 or more days and weekends would be included for free, 2 days a week then weekends aren't included and if one day a week then that's not really a season ticket, a carnet would be best.

 

[yorksrob]

I like the traditional idea of a ticket that allows you to travel at any time, any number of journeys. At the moment, I but my metro card (which is essentially a season ticket) which is I assume, priced for a standard working week. However, I also get the weekend thrown in should I choose to travel. A carnet system wouldn't allow this.

personally I think there is still a need for both type arrangements to be available.

From a commercial point of view, the season ticket discount makes sense. You are committing to buy a certain amount of transport in advance which makes it easier for the railway to budget and plan for.

 

[AM9]

Providing heavily discounted tickets to travel at peak times is certainly anachronistic - it also a very regressive ticketing system - if you can afford an annual season ticket or has an employer who is prepared to give you an interest free loan you get a larger discount than someone who can only afford weekly tickets. Interested to hear SPT talking about people who put on the price of a day ticket every day on their Glasgow subway smartcard presumably because they are only able to budget on a daily basis. One advantage of TfL contactless is that it caps weekly charges.

The cost of public transport is dictated by peak vehicle requirements so why do we give cheap travel to those who cause the largest cost.

Couldn't agree more. Every time there is a fares increase (usually fairly close to the rate of inflation) the news bulletins carry the expected vox pop whining from commuters outside whichever London terminal they decide to canvass. Often the comment from the interviewee is that they pay £N per year (the bigger the figure the better the headline as far as the reporter goes). What is never mentiond is the fact that a £5000 annual season ticket entitles them to unlimited anytime travel over the period on the route(s) that their ticket covers. Take a St Albans to London Thameslink annual season. Based on a normal annual travel to work year of 240 Monday to Friday return trips, the season ticket anytime journeys cost the holder just 70% of the anytime fare. Not only that but the season ticket holder even travels for 6% less than the much more restricted off-peak fare despite the off-peak traveller making far less demands on the TOC and infrastructure.
Strangely, it seems, (certainly from posts on these forums) that the commuting travellers complain most about their personal discomforts of high density rolling stock that is only provided because they demand travel when the system is stretched beyond it's optimum capacity.

 

[bspahh]

With a traditional season ticket, you get to travel without getting a new ticket each day, and you get a discount on travelling on peak trains.

On longer journeys the discount is bigger. For my commute, a season ticket is £1200, and I'd need to travel on peak trains for 176 days a year to break even. I work 227 days a year (5 days a week, 5 weeks holiday, 9 bank holidays). On average, I work off site 50 days a year which wipes out the discount. Its usually OK for me to wait until the off peak trains in the morning, so buying tickets daily is half the price of a season ticket. For that amount of a saving, I will take the hassle.

A season ticket might let me travel on a weekend, but I travel there in the week, and I have no desire to make the journey on weekend.

Into London a season ticket costs £5k but I'd only need to travel on 111 days a year to break even.

 

[AM9]

With a traditional season ticket, you get to travel without getting a new ticket each day, and you get a discount on travelling on peak trains.

On longer journeys the discount is bigger. For my commute, a season ticket is £1200, and I'd need to travel on peak trains for 176 days a year to break even. I work 227 days a year (5 days a week, 5 weeks holiday, 9 bank holidays). On average, I work off site 50 days a year which wipes out the discount. Its usually OK for me to wait until the off peak trains in the morning, so buying tickets daily is half the price of a season ticket. For that amount of a saving, I will take the hassle.

A season ticket might let me travel on a weekend, but I travel there in the week, and I have no desire to make the journey on weekend.

Into London a season ticket costs £5k but I'd only need to travel on 111 days a year to break even.

A season, as has been said above is not the appropriate ticket for many, even some of those whose travel needs includes peak services. Maybe carnets (electronic/smart/paper as appropriate) would be a better solution all round when five journeys could be purchased for the price of four, (multiples of anytime or off-peak prices), i.e the equivalent of a weekly season. The same could be done for any duration with a similar discount regime. That way it would be possible for those who make fewer than five return trips per week to save on their fares. Similarly, those whose travel times don't contribute to the peak traffic congestion could have off-peak carnets rather than having to pay for anytime travel.

 

[yorksrob]

A season, as has been said above is not the appropriate ticket for many, even some of those whose travel needs includes peak services. Maybe carnets (electronic/smart/paper as appropriate) would be a better solution all round when five journeys could be purchased for the price of four, (multiples of anytime or off-peak prices), i.e the equivalent of a weekly season. The same could be done for any duration with a similar discount regime. That way it would be possible for those who make fewer than five return trips per week to save on their fares. Similarly, those whose travel times don't contribute to the peak traffic congestion could have off-peak carnets rather than having to pay for anytime travel.

Why not have both ?

 

[AM9]

Why not have both ?

Providing that the effective pricing per mile/journey of both relates to the same extent to the corresponding walk-up fares, that would be equitable.

 

[yorksrob]

Providing that the effective pricing per mile/journey of both relates to the same extent to the corresponding walk-up fares, that would be equitable.

As I mentioned, there is a commercial motivation to providing a discount. Without such a discount, why on earth would I commit to buying so much travel in advance ?

 

[cuccir]

Turn up at any major city train station between 07:30 and 09:00 on a weekday and it would be hard to imagine that season tickets are outmoded! Just because there is a trend towards flexible working does not mean that we are there yet.

The annual or period season ticket also has the merit of peace of mind, and allows a more predictable daily commute - which is important to many people's psychological enjoyment or at least survival of the commute! (Gatersleben, B. and Uzzell, D., 2007. Affective appraisals of the daily commute: Comparing perceptions of drivers, cyclists, walkers, and users of public transport. Environment and behavior, 39(3), pp.416-431.) The ability to just show up and travel on any train, any time, any day, is one reason I like my annual and that is worth something to me (though I'm also in that bracket of people who benefit from an employer's season ticket loan).

As others have said though - there should be room for both and I'm sure that at some point, smart-ticketing will essentially introduce this.

 

[AM9]

Turn up at any major city train station between 07:30 and 09:00 on a weekday and it would be hard to imagine that season tickets are outmoded! Just because there is a trend towards flexible working does not mean that we are there yet.

So why not create a ticket class that allows off-peak tickets for 70% of the off-peak fare per journey if purchased ahead?

The annual or period season ticket also has the merit of peace of mind, and allows a more predictable daily commute - which is important to many people's psychological enjoyment or at least survival of the commute! (Gatersleben, B. and Uzzell, D., 2007. Affective appraisals of the daily commute: Comparing perceptions of drivers, cyclists, walkers, and users of public transport. Environment and behavior, 39(3), pp.416-431.) The ability to just show up and travel on any train, any time, any day, is one reason I like my annual and that is worth something to me (though I'm also in that bracket of people who benefit from an employer's season ticket loan).

So would you travel on a season ticket and continue to benefit from the 'peace of mind' if the cost wasn't subsidised by off-peak travellers?

As others have said though - there should be room for both and I'm sure that at some point, smart-ticketing will essentially introduce this.

I agree, there should be discounts to all travellers.

 

[AM9]

As I mentioned, there is a commercial motivation to providing a discount. Without such a discount, why on earth would I commit to buying so much travel in advance ?

As others say, for 'peace of mind'. How little subsidy would it take for you to abandon annual season tickets?

 

[cuccir]

I'm not going to respond to your questions AM9 except to say that the post reads as needlessly combative to me in what is meant to be a discussion forum.

 

[AlterEgo]

So would you travel on a season ticket and continue to benefit from the 'peace of mind' if the cost wasn't subsidised by off-peak travellers?

I don't think that is true - season tickets are the railway's bread and butter. The company gets the revenue for all the travel up to a year in advance. I don't really buy the idea that off-peak travellers are subsidising commuters, at least not in any meaningful way.

 

[AM9]

I don't think that is true - season tickets are the railway's bread and butter. The company gets the revenue for all the travel up to a year in advance. I don't really buy the idea that off-peak travellers are subsidising commuters, at least not in any meaningful way.

If you consider it purely at the TOC level, then that is so, but I am talking about the railway as a whole. Lines and routes that run a substantial commuter service are structured/maintained for those peak services with the off-peak services costing very little. Similarly, rolling stock has long been designed and scaled specifically for the peak demand. That rolling stock is drastically under utilised outside of the peak so if its provision wasn't (in part) subsidised by public funds and off-peak travel receipts, as business model, it just wouldn't survive. The railway would be a much simpler network if it only had to serve a less polarised demand, and it would probably require a much lower subsidy, (if any at all), looking more like a conventional business. But we have this phoney privatisation of the railways that really isn't much different to the nationalised one we had until the '90s. TOCs are just there to imprint their own branding and create a veneer of private enterprise. In practice, they just play the game of managing the subsidy and manipulating the non-regulated fares to make a profit. That includes the cost (and income) of managing multiple interfaces. The provision of commuter services is part of that illusion.
It's not that there's anything wrong with subsidising commuter travel to reduce pollution, keep road traffic down and improve travel safety, - particularly in and around cities, but the elephant in the room is that rail travel, especially commuting is effectively subsidised and so many seem to be in denial of the fact.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't think that is true - season tickets are the railway's bread and butter. The company gets the revenue for all the travel up to a year in advance.

Actually they don't. Season ticket revenue goes into a suspense account, with a proportion released every four weeks throughout its period of validity. Full details are in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

 

[Stew998]

I had no doubt there would be more to this than had met my eye and of course I appreciate that some jobs cannot be done from home. The subject of homeworking and flexible working is a bit of a minefield and worthy of a thread or forum in itself. If nothing else it requires a degree of trust between employer and employee which is lacking in many workplaces in one or other direction (or both).

I hadn't realised that Thameslink already operate a carnet system albeit on a very limited basis.

The Smartcard idea is a good one I think, Southern have the "Key" although that seems to just be a plastic credit card where you can "store" your ticket. It doesn't seem to offer any further benefit other than that you can't accidentally wipe it with a magnet like a card ticket.

I can see that a traditional Season Ticket has its benefits, not least the ability to travel at weekends (especially useful if you commute into a large town or city which has attractions in addition to your place of work) and the ability to take shorter journeys on the same route. I can't see them becoming extinct any time soon.

As for the idea that commuters are subsidised by off-peak travellers I'm not sure I buy that as without that peak traffic many lines would surely not be viable, certainly not in a form that offered anything like the same frequency and level of service. Also if you buy a year's travel in advance some form of discount is justified, if only to compensate for the level of service you have to suffer on some lines...

 

[radamfi]

Southern have the "Key" although that seems to just be a plastic credit card where you can "store" your ticket. It doesn't seem to offer any further benefit other than that you can't accidentally wipe it with a magnet like a card ticket.

It can also be used for pay-as-you-go travel in most of the Southern area outside the TfL fare zones. See "KeyGo".

 

[AM9]

... As for the idea that commuters are subsidised by off-peak travellers I'm not sure I buy that as without that peak traffic many lines would surely not be viable, certainly not in a form that offered anything like the same frequency and level of service.

If the line is that devoid of patronage then the frequent service all day would be carrying empty seats. That's rarely the case but then the rolling stock and infrastructure is effectively being supported by public money for a mere 4-6 hours concentrated use.

Also if you buy a year's travel in advance some form of discount is justified, if only to compensate for the level of service you have to suffer on some lines...

With cash loan rates around 2-3% interest, maybe 5% at the extreme, (although many are subsidised by employers), that might justify a discount of half the average rate. As for levels of service that may be suffered on some lines, that affects full fare travellers as much as season ticket holders.

 

[TUC]

If I take myself as an example, I may only be in our Leeds office (travelling from Halifax) 9-10 days a month. On those days it's marginal in terms of cost whether I drive or take the train, but the train does have a significant time penalty and so an additional incentive is needed. To have a customer choose to travel by rail 10 times a month and so get their income is presumably attractive for a TOC, but travel patterns like that do not fit traditional season tickets. Therefore a carnet or other approach which gave a discount for purchasing multiple journeys that can be taken over an extended period rather than a fixed week or month would be attractive for people like me.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It can also be used for pay-as-you-go travel in most of the Southern area outside the TfL fare zones. See "KeyGo".

Which comes with the inexplicable limitation that...

You need to allow 3 minutes between the time you touch out at a train station and touch in on a bus.

(Source)

Integrated transport... we've heard of it!

 

[xotGD]

Some sort of 'buy nine - get the tenth free' loyalty scheme for regular but not daily commuting would be perfect for me. Northern - are you listening?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Some sort of 'buy nine - get the tenth free' loyalty scheme for regular but not daily commuting would be perfect for me. Northern - are you listening?

That's more or less what a carnet is.

 

[AM9]

That's more or less what a carnet is.

Except that to match season tickets, it would need to be buy seven and get ten, - which would hardly be acceptable to ATOC.

 

[bspahh]

Except that to match season tickets, it would need to be buy seven and get ten, - which would hardly be acceptable to ATOC.

The thing I don't like about a carnet is that you have to buy 10 tickets in advance. They expire after a few months, and if you lose them, they have gone. There is a discount, but that could easily get wiped out if one goes missing, and I've read horror stories about people getting hassled if they mark a ticket with the wrong type of pen. Near me, they are only available for a train at peak hours.

If I lose the ticket, I want to be able to pay a reasonable fee for a replacement card, but not to have to pay again for any tickets that were loaded onto the card.

I want to be able to get a ticket for the trains that I want to travel on, rather than having to plan months in advance. I don't want to have to queue at a ticket machine to get it. Of course a discount would be nice, but the main focus should be on making it quick and easy to pay for fares.