Serco Caledonian Sleeper contract will NOT be extended

[RailWonderer]

It never will. Money will be no object for such vital & politically important rail night routes.

I think MPs have a history of using the route so who knows.
A possibility is that CS then becomes operated by Scotrail/Transport Scotland thereby going over to OLR and it carries on with some costcutting as said up thread.
However when HS2 comes along and suddenly you can get to Glasgow in 3 1/2 hours the CS becomes a different entity, an experience rather than a different way to get to Scotland.

 

[dk1]

I think MPs have a history of using the route so who knows.
A possibility is that CS then becomes operated by Scotrail/Transport Scotland thereby going over to OLR and it carries on with some costcutting as said up thread.
However when HS2 comes along and suddenly you can get to Glasgow in 3 1/2 hours the CS becomes a different entity, an experience rather than a different way to get to Scotland.

Might be a good time to transfer some of the rolling stock across to replace the Riviera mk3s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However when HS2 comes along and suddenly you can get to Glasgow in 3 1/2 hours the CS becomes a different entity, an experience rather than a different way to get to Scotland.

Still useful for the Highlands but I think the Glasgow/Edinburgh would be pretty useless, people would probably prefer HS2 departures at about 2300 and 0430 from each end and at least a few hours in their own bed or a decent hotel one. My prediction remains that with HS2 2A we will see the end of the Lowlander, with the spare coaches released from that going down to replace the then 60-70 year old Mk3s on the Riviera.

 

[Davester50]

• Bargin berths aside, the problem with Serco's pricing isn't the prices per se - although they did dramatically increase from Scotrail - but the per-cabin pricing, so that for a person travelling alone the price is effectively doubled. For two people travelling together there is much less difference. Last time I tried to use the sleeper, while I was living in Aberdeen, a return to London booked five months ahead was over £400. Obviously I didn't take it.

Sharing with strangers is never coming back. It's far too problematic for women sadly, so per cabin pricing for Sleeping Cars is here to stay.

I can only surmise you were either booking ahead in a holiday period Friday or Sunday. The late booked last berth available sleepers I've been on have been ~£200 one way, but needs must.

IMHO this sleeper service will be safe for the forseeable future, because it's a favoured method for Scottish MPs to travel to/from their constituencies. But they do it on expenses, so they don't care about the prices.

My MP likes to fly. A lot. At £500 a month according to his expenses. Yes, there's also a Caledonian Sleeper claim for near 2K, which I presume is a Flexipass.
His neighbouring same party MP has a total for £8 for rail expenses, but nearly 5K for air. I think the days of it being an MP favourite are in the past, not the present.
(Actually, it's wronly coded as a Railcard but he's got a £1650 claim for CS too.)

 

[realemil]

Sharing with strangers is never coming back. It's far too problematic for women sadly

How come Europe can manage just fine then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How come Europe can manage just fine then?

More importantly, what's wrong with offering a choice to share or not share? I'd personally choose not to (I'm fine with an open coach, but not the intimacy of sharing a compartment with one person) but each to their own.

 

[realemil]

More importantly, what's wrong with offering a choice to share or not share? I'd personally choose not to (I'm fine with an open coach, but not the intimacy of sharing a compartment with one person) but each to their own.

Also a very good point.

Not sure I’d share a room with 1 other person, but if it turned into a 3 berth room, I’d be more inclined to. Either way though, why wouldn’t somebody take a 50% saving if they want a bed to share with a stranger, who’s travelling for the exact same reason?

As said before, pods wouldn’t be a bad idea but the limited space makes them quite hard to do

 

[Davester50]

How come Europe can manage just fine then?

Does it? Norway was per-cabin and no sharing at least 15 years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would be much easier if it ran via the ECML because then there'd be no reversals, and so you could do longitudinal couchettes with curtains, which I find the best accommodation on overnight trains because you don't get blood to your head and feet on curves and there isn't the "intimacy" thing, it's just like a youth hostel on wheels. DB used to have those, and the Thais and Amtrak still do.

 

[StephenHunter]

Europe does it same sex. That's a potential issue for trans people though.

 

[realemil]

Does it? Norway was per-cabin and no sharing at least 15 years ago.

Not sure about Norway specifically but most sleepers have couchettes.

Europe does it same sex.

Not quite true, when I traveled with NightJet I shared with both male & females. Not sure if that was specific to the route / NJ but it definitely was mixed!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Europe does it same sex. That's a potential issue for trans people though.

I suspect that particular "liberal paradox"* is why it fell out of favour in the UK.

Not quite true, when I traveled with NightJet I shared with both male & females. Not sure if that was specific to the route / NJ but it definitely was mixed!

Couchettes are generally mixed because the presumption is that you sleep fully clothed with only a thin blanket provided; it's basically just treated as a horizontal seat. Sleepers are generally segregated because it's a proper bed where you'd normally undress or change into nightclothes.

* A "liberal paradox" is a situation where it is impossible to please both groups by way of simply operating a liberal policy. Another example is that you can't be anti-sexist without being opposed to certain branches of certain religions, or vice versa.

 

[43096]

Europe does it same sex. That's a potential issue for trans people though.

Is that a whole new meaning for “Trans Europe Express”?

 

[Davester50]

Not sure about Norway specifically but most sleepers have couchettes.

Not quite true, when I traveled with NightJet I shared with both male & females. Not sure if that was specific to the route / NJ but it definitely was mixed!

A sleeper isn't a couchette though.

 

[StephenHunter]

Would be much easier if it ran via the ECML because then there'd be no reversals, and so you could do longitudinal couchettes with curtains, which I find the best accommodation on overnight trains because you don't get blood to your head and feet on curves and there isn't the "intimacy" thing, it's just like a youth hostel on wheels. DB used to have those, and the Thais and Amtrak still do.

Still have those in Russia too.

What cost cutting could you feasibly do without the RMT calling for a strike?

 

[D6130]

For comparison, I was recently looking at tickets on the French sleepers, and had London-Briançon (including a Eurostar ticket) for around £80.


For a while, individual pods like a Japanese hotel has seemed like an obvious solution to me.

Although, in fairness, the Paris-Briançon leg of the journey would be in a couchette shared with up to five other passengers of both sexes....and no on-board food or drink options or en-suite facilities.

 

[StephenHunter]

On board catering that isn't a breakfast tray or room service is rare on sleepers now. No economic sense running a restaurant car that would be empty most of the night.

 

[Cowley]

Just a reminder that all the speculative stuff is for this thread please.

Caledonian Sleeper: How should it be run and what changes would you like to see?

This thread is to enable people to post their ideas, following the news in the non-speculative thread Serco Caledonian Sleeper contract will NOT be extended: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/serco-caledonian-sleeper-contract-will-not-be-extended.237956/ For example, should the Caledonian...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

Would be much easier if it ran via the ECML because then there'd be no reversals, and so you could do longitudinal couchettes with curtains

1. Unless it diverts to King's Cross as well there's a reversal at Wembley Yard after departing Euston, and 2. Why does a reversal change anything about longitudinal couchettes? The train will need doors on both sides regardless.

 

[matrix24]

Upwards of £200 a night is more than mid-range. Several Doubletrees in London tonight for less than £150.

Shame we can't have just given it to OeBB to run on a Trans European Night network

Why not Nightjet or Midnight train brands take a look at this, possibly a Eurostar link include.

But it's the cost, unlikely to be viable unless substantial subsidiary is on offer once again.

Intresting thought though.

 

[Sealink]

According to an FOI someone posted on Twitter, the sleeper is to be remerged with ScotRail to ensure its longterm financial viability.

The more things change the more they stay the same...

 

[JamesT]

1. Unless it diverts to King's Cross as well there's a reversal at Wembley Yard after departing Euston, and 2. Why does a reversal change anything about longitudinal couchettes? The train will need doors on both sides regardless.

The issue with having the beds running front-to-back is being in a position where the train has to stop suddenly. If you're always feet-first in bed that's not a massive problem. But if the train reverses and you're now travelling head-first, you potentially risk neck injuries etc. Which is why the beds on the sleeper are all sideways.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is no chance that the new operator (if there is one) is going to order new rolling stock, or reconfigure what there is to couchettes, pods, or anything else. This has been explained st length on previous threads on the subject - the economics simply don’t stack up (partly because the beds don’t stack up any higher! or tighter!)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I suspect that particular "liberal paradox"* is why it fell out of favour in the UK.

No, it fell out of favour because people don't want to pay sleeper prices to sleep underneath a farting, snoring stranger, regardless of their gender.

There are recliner seats for the price conscious and, even then, overnight road coaches are usually cheaper.

Sleepers will never, ever, be the budget option.

In the cabins, the people travelling will not be the ones counting every penny.

 

[GodAtum]

I really hope I get the chance to travel on this as it's been on my bucket list for ages!

 

[Davester50]

No, it fell out of favour because people don't want to pay sleeper prices to sleep underneath a farting, snoring stranger, regardless of their gender.

Sharing with the same sex was done away with when it was still the old stock, when prices were more realistic than the Deluxe prices of now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it fell out of favour because people don't want to pay sleeper prices to sleep underneath a farting, snoring stranger, regardless of their gender.

Plenty of people actually did when a choice was offered.

 

[alistairlees]

Plenty of people actually did when a choice was offered.

As I have pointed out before regular users were adept at getting a solo room for the price of a shared one by selecting an obscure station to travel to or from.

 

[RT4038]

No, it fell out of favour because people don't want to pay sleeper prices to sleep underneath a farting, snoring stranger, regardless of their gender.

But then they found they didn't want to pay the double price of a solo cabin either......

 

[Tetchytyke]

But then they found they didn't want to pay the double price of a solo cabin either......

There's nothing to suggest that CS trains are running empty.

o what justification could there possibly be for public money subsidising this service for the well-heeled while the alternatives predominantly used by those on lower incomes off are 100% commercial?

The same reason why the entirety of the real network in the UK requires subsidy? The train conveys seats for the price conscious.

I'm not sure that turning it back into a travelling youth hostel will magically make it profitable.

What would be interesting is a comparison in subsidy between the CS and the Night Riviera

Plenty of people actually did when a choice was offered.

No, as @alistairlees points out, people went to great lengths to ensure they didn't have to share.