"Service reported as being busy"

[Adrian1980uk]

It would have been an odd message a few years ago as the next question would be what is BR doing about it... Now it's just information asking what the passenger wants to do about it.. but it can be useful information

 

[Master29]

It would have been an odd message a few years ago as the next question would be what is BR doing about it... Now it's just information asking what the passenger wants to do about it.. but it can be useful information

That's a fair point.

 

[sprinterguy]

I would also say I'd do the same, but the issue I have is where and when you get the information. If I read at home or out doing something then yeah I'd wait, but when I'm stood at the platform with 10-15 to go probably not, isn't always easy to leave out of the barriers.

I'm generally wedded to Realtime Trains to inform my choice of train, especially once I'm somewhere between trains and particularly at the first hint of delay, disruption or crowding, and the maps on Open Train Times if things start getting really bad. The latter is a bit niche and enthusiast-specific, I'll grant you.

If the passenger information screens can provide even a modicum of the information that I know could be available to most people's fingertips, to help inform the decision of even a minority of passengers with the flexibility to choose, then it's a good thing.

 

[dk1]

To be fair to the OP they do have a point. Putting the onus on the fault being with a passenger being inflexible isn't exactly fair though as the Lime Street to Norwich is nearly always overcrowded. I know we have to be flexible at times but this is a route that is in need of overhauling even though I know this is unlikely to happen anytime soon. At least EMR did give an opportunity under the circumstances.

Anybody who knows the route expects these trains to be on/off very busy. It’s been an ongoing issue since the route became what it is today with the launch of the Express timetable over 35 years ago.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think this would be incredibly useful in many scenarios. I think back to a dreadful morning commuting into central Manchester from Urmston where successive cancellations meant the train was completely full. If the realtime boards had highlighted this when I arrived - I could have made the decision to get the bus instead into Manchester earlier and wouldn't have been as delayed as the train pulling in and then having to change plans.

I can also see this being useful on routes where there maybe two trains right behind each other that go to your destination - this information could potentially reliably inform the rail user that one of the trains is the better one to get based off the room available on board. Perhaps lines like the Manchester Airport line would find this particularly useful.

If this information leads to a passenger getting on a comparable but different train (IE in the OP's example, if the EMR to Manchester was very busy but the following TPE was not reporting as such so the passenger gets on the TPE instead), then this could help with better distributing passenger over multiple services IF the information is reliable.

No use if the following service is for a different operator.

I would also rather know what the following service is like (full or cancelled for instance). But I would need to know that before the full service that I can see with my own eyes leaves. Thinking about it - generally I won't risk a following train being better but if it puts others off then its more chance for me to get in the train.

 

[bahnause]

The information itself is helpful. However, the second step, the presentation of alternatives, is missing. SBB now shows the expected load in the app and on the displays. Alternative routes can be displayed for very busy connections.

 

[al78]

I can see the use in such information at least for passengers with some flexibility but living in SE commuter land it comes across as a bit odd, given that busy trains around here are taken for granted. When I board a Cambridge bound train at Three Bridges around the morning peak I sometimes have to stand until East Croydon despite boarding at the back of the train, and coming home in the evening from Farringdon, when I get a Horsham-bound train from East Croydon or Three Bridges it is frequently very busy with an estimated three quarters of the passengers getting off at Horsham.

 

[Kite159]

Reminds me of some of the messaging which was played at some Avanti West Coast stations in 2021 with endless announcements along the lines of "this train is more crowded than normal today, passengers with flexible tickets are advised to use alternative services".

Or announcements that a train is "full & standing" only for it to roll in half empty. Yes it might have been full & standing earlier in the journey but those passengers have since alighted.

 

[sprinterguy]

The information itself is helpful. However, the second step, the presentation of alternatives, is missing. SBB now shows the expected load in the app and on the displays. Alternative routes can be displayed for very busy connections.

SBB were really good for passenger information even a decade ago, with regard to which carriage could be found in which section of the platform and the expected loadings for each. It frustrates me that we're only just getting to that same level in some areas of the UK today.

No use if the following service is for a different operator.

Why not? I suspect it's probably a declining percentage but there's still a proportion of passengers travelling on multi-operator flexible tickets.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Reminds me of some of the messaging which was played at some Avanti West Coast stations in 2021 with endless announcements along the lines of "this train is more crowded than normal today, passengers with flexible tickets are advised to use alternative services".

Or announcements that a train is "full & standing" only for it to roll in half empty. Yes it might have been full & standing earlier in the journey but those passengers have since alighted.

As the years have gone by I have learned that all too often information can be wrong. Either out of date or just plain wrong. Sometimes wrong more often than not.

Another is a standard station announcement reminding passengers a train will not be platformed yet and they have time to buy a coffee. A Station announcement doing marketing !. I cannot remember where it was - might have been Euston or maybe Birmingham New Street.

 

[Krokodil]

The full and standing information is not much help if you’re on an Advance ticket. It would just cause added stress.

It shows you that the overcrowding has been logged by control which backs you up a bit if you are unable to board and do need to explain why you aren't on your booked service as a result.

 

[Killingworth]

As a user of that route I'd say that may be situation normal on a Friday afternoon, but not just for that train.

The preceding fast service by TPE at 13.11 was 3 car, as was the following 14.11 so that 4 car EMR was possibly a better bet for space. Some might have preferred the slower, but usually cheaper, Northern 3 car services at 13.14 or 14.14.

Curiously EMR's 13.43 was the only one of these 5 to reach Piccadilly on time. I suspect it might have been the least busy.

 

[sheff1]

As per the attached photo, for some time now the screens at Sheffield station have featured the text "service reported as being busy" below certain services, predominantly EMR trains to and from Liverpool. My question is, what is the intending traveller supposed to do with this information?

Ignore it is what I do. I don't recall ever failing to get a seat when such a message has been shown (not just at Sheffield), although I have had to stand on a couple of occasions where no such message was shown !

 

[bramling]

Also most useful if it actually means the service is busier than usual eg because the previous train on the route was cancelled, or because there’s a special event on. It’ll be much less relevant on certain always-busy corridors.

Agree with your last paragraph. Southeastern do a similar PIS message along the lines of “there are usually many/few seats available on this train” which I always think is more useful on the website than at (say) 1700 at London Bridge, where waiting isn’t likely to result in a quieter train.

The trouble with these sorts of things is that, in typical dysfunctional railway style, they’re not worth the paper they’re printed on.

I’ve seen this a few times, with the train turning out to be quite empty. Even a real-time loading indication is only partially helpful as it’s not going to take into account if people are getting off.

So my view would be it’s just extra clutter on the information screens.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The trouble with these sorts of things is that, in typical dysfunctional railway style, they’re not worth the paper they’re printed on.

I’ve seen this a few times, with the train turning out to be quite empty. Even a real-time loading indication is only partially helpful as it’s not going to take into account if people are getting off.

So my view would be it’s just extra clutter on the information screens.

I fear all this information is just becoming more to ignore or take with a pinch of salt.

It is not just a railway thing. The number of times I see on the motorways the overhead matrix signs telling me there is an obstruction and to move over. I have never actually seen any obstruction. But I have seen unexpected obstructions or debris that were not reported. It follows that the lack of a warning should not be treated as reassurance that there is nothing wrong - so just be cautious always as probably most of us are anyway ?.

 

[Hadders]

The 11:18 from Stevenage to Kings Cross displayed ‘Full and Standing’ on the departure screens today.

Thankfully it’s a 12 car class 700 which is excellent at hoovering up passengers but I don’t think I’ve been on a 709 showing red on 10 out of 12 cars before.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The 11:18 from Stevenage to Kings Cross displayed ‘Full and Standing’ on the departure screens today.

Thankfully it’s a 12 car class 700 which is excellent at hoovering up passengers but I don’t think I’ve been on a 709 showing red on 10 out of 12 cars before.

All the "second class".

Don't say it !.

 

[dk1]

It’s been displaying on screens today that Norwich-Cambridge services are ‘full and standing’ which shouldn’t come as a surprise although it does seem to be to many. Intercity services are terminating at Witham for rail replacement, little chance of additional relief trains as often happens due to GA drivers working to rule, no EMR services on the route at all today due to strike action and of course it being a Saturday in the run up to Christmas. All a perfect storm.

 

[NeilCr]

The trouble with these sorts of things is that, in typical dysfunctional railway style, they’re not worth the paper they’re printed on.

I’ve seen this a few times, with the train turning out to be quite empty. Even a real-time loading indication is only partially helpful as it’s not going to take into account if people are getting off.

So my view would be it’s just extra clutter on the information screens.

Personally, I find the SouthEastern website info on "usual loading" pretty useful when planning trips out (especially if it involves London). Now we seem to have gone away from set commuter hours it's good to know what trains are likely to be crowded or not. I'm fairly fit and healthy - although getting on a bit - but have a back condition which means standing for any length of time is not a good idea

Ime anyway it's been reasonably accurate.

I recognise that it's - at least a bit - different from the situation where you are at a station and looking at the screens - but I've always thought it a good initiative by SouthEastern

 

[gazzaa2]

"This train is expected to be very busy today" is a regular automated announcement on Avanti trains into Euston.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Of course, if this train is reported as "busy" before arrival in Sheffield, a large percentage of the passengers may get off there.

This is a very good point that effectively makes the information about a service being busy irrelevant. I travel regularly between Sheffield and the North West and often find a train that might be rammed between Sheffield and Manchester can empty out at Piccadilly, making for a more pleasant journey for those of us venturing on to Merseyside.

The "service busy" text can actually make things worse on this route as it can push passengers on to Northern's Hope Valley stopper, which is usually already busy with hikers and cyclists and not really suitable for through passengers from Sheffield to Manchester.

 

[Hadders]

The final train from King’s Cross today (departed 20:02) was even fuller than this morning.

Thankfully a 12 car 700. I’m not the biggest fan of the seating layout on these trains but on days like today these trains come into their own. Everyone got on and got home.

 

[LowLevel]

Indeed, I was going to say that The Sheffield Tap is handy; I'll often retire there for an hour, or maybe two, to await a later train if one looks likely to be busy, as I have the flexibility to do so.

Though I am slightly surprised that an early Friday afternoon EMR Sheffield - Liverpool service was reported as busy when it, and the preceding EMR service, was running with the correct 4 coach formation and there were no adjacent cancellations. I am of course aware that it is a well used service, and I seem to have been quite fortunate in the trains I've used over that route recently.

The background to how this message appears is important to understanding why this is.

It is displayed when the guard has informed the Control that the service is full and standing. It isn't then removed again unless the guard reports that the train is no longer full and standing.

Consequently if the train is reported as full and standing leaving Ely, but a large percentage get off the train at Peterborough as they do, unless the Control are told otherwise the "very busy" message will be shown for the rest of the journey even if the train isn't.

It is quite easy to overlook when you're busy and particularly when there is a crew change en route.

It is the railway equivalent of leaving motorway signs illuminated for congestion at 3am when the traffic cleared hours ago.

 

[Killingworth]

Last year we were waiting at Leicester for an early evening EMR train to Sheffield which was being flagged as a full 5 car. It turned up with two units, the front almost empty which we boarded. The refreshment trolley got on that and we got welcome coffees.

At Sheffield an unrefreshed hoard got off the crowded rear unit including a football team and supporters.

Good intentions but not too helpful outcomes.

 

[TUC]

Some of the comments here do suggest rail enthusiasts who are not in line with what most people would probably want, which is to get to where they are going as soon as possible, busy train or not.

 

[sammyg901]

Chiltern Railways Birmingham to London services almost consistently show this on a Saturday from Leamington Spa or Banbury on journeycheck. Not sure if it shows on the screens as I've no wish to cram on a 4 car 168 for an hrs ride and either go to Bicester Village or Aylesbury instead presumably it works as intended?!

 

[Failed Unit]

The background to how this message appears is important to understanding why this is.

It is displayed when the guard has informed the Control that the service is full and standing. It isn't then removed again unless the guard reports that the train is no longer full and standing.

Consequently if the train is reported as full and standing leaving Ely, but a large percentage get off the train at Peterborough as they do, unless the Control are told otherwise the "very busy" message will be shown for the rest of the journey even if the train isn't.

It is quite easy to overlook when you're busy and particularly when there is a crew change en route.

It is the railway equivalent of leaving motorway signs illuminated for congestion at 3am when the traffic cleared hours ago.

I did use to find this very useful, on the EMR website they put full and standing from Cleethorpes on the 1030(ish) Cleethorpes to Leicester service. Most get off at Lincoln but the notice stays online until it terminates.

For me as someone wanting to use it at Market Rasen it is very useful as it tells me I need to drive to Lincoln and don't bother with the train. However now EMR are on RTT, if it is allocated a 2 car unit - do bother going to Market Rasen, as you are unlikely to physically be able to board the train is my new rule.

 

[gobbybobby]

GWR do a similar thing,

On the Wessex line have seen them put "train reported as full and standing only" on the Portsmouth to Cardiff trains. And most people ignore and try to get on anyway. the Gaurd stood on the platform shouting at Warminster around 11 am yesterday trying to stop people from getting on the Full Portsmouth to Cardiff train, everyone crammed on anyway and if people move down to the middle of the carriage why can't we have 40 people standing.

 

[cuccir]

Presuming that the data is accurate, I'm definitely in the "would rather know" camp.

It could be about making sure you go to the loo, or deciding not to buy a coffee, or preemptively sorting your bags a little. It could be about deciding to take a later service. It could simply be about steeling yourself for a busy train.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Presuming that the data is accurate, I'm definitely in the "would rather know" camp.

It could be about making sure you go to the loo, or deciding not to buy a coffee, or preemptively sorting your bags a little. It could be about deciding to take a later service. It could simply be about steeling yourself for a busy train.

Absolutely. Just handy to be able to think things like 'shall I get my phone charging pack out of my bag because I probably won't be able to plug my device in' or 'I'll make a quick private phone call now because I won't be able to vwalk along to a quiet vestibule' or 'I'll pop a paperback in my pocket now to save fumbling with luggage once on board', etc., etc..