Services which could realistically return to Loco Haulage

[jopsuk]

One key issue with the idea of replacing current DMU services with LHCS is hat on some lines the speed limit differential is huge, which would have a big impact on timetables

 

[apk55]

I was in Germany recently and saw a lots of Loco haulled trains, mainly double deck stock worked push pull by a loco. With double deck stock it is probaby difficult or imposible to make a motor coach as there is nowhere to put control equipment as the lower deck floor is only just above rail level and the celling of the upper deck at the loading guage limit. The only space where equipment can be put is in the single deck section above the bogies and this is probably used for AC equipment.

 

[DownSouth]

I was in Germany recently and saw a lots of Loco haulled trains, mainly double deck stock worked push pull by a loco. With double deck stock it is probaby difficult or imposible to make a motor coach as there is nowhere to put control equipment as the lower deck floor is only just above rail level and the celling of the upper deck at the loading guage limit. The only space where equipment can be put is in the single deck section above the bogies and this is probably used for AC equipment.

You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?

The Germans use lots of loco-hauled double-deck stock primarily because the locomotives are available, either because they outlasted the stock they were originally hauling or because they became surplus thanks to shifts in the needs of freight locomotives. If they want to switch to double-deck EMUs, there is no shortage of manufacturers which would be happy to supply them.

Loco-hauled double-deck rolling stock is quite plentiful in North America, primarily because many of the areas using it for commuter rail are mixed-traffic lines also used by double-stack container trains (which do not cooperate happily with electrification) and the commuter rail systems in the north-east of the USA use them ahead of EMUs to cater for the fact that some lines rely on diesel haulage.

 

[fowler9]

You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?

The Germans use lots of loco-hauled double-deck stock primarily because the locomotives are available, either because they outlasted the stock they were originally hauling or because they became surplus thanks to shifts in the needs of freight locomotives. If they want to switch to double-deck EMUs, there is no shortage of manufacturers which would be happy to supply them.

Loco-hauled double-deck rolling stock is quite plentiful in North America, primarily because many of the areas using it for commuter rail are mixed-traffic lines also used by double-stack container trains (which do not cooperate happily with electrification) and the commuter rail systems in the north-east of the USA use them ahead of EMUs to cater for the fact that some lines rely on diesel haulage.

No need to be rude. The VIRM in Holland is a double deck EMU, very nice they are to. I went on loads in Sydney as well.

Edit, I just remembered I went on a TAF or a TSR double deck EMU (Not sure which) from Milan to Turin a few years back on a very late night service. The return journey during the day was LHCS and I loved it. I would love to see the world return to LHCS but it is just never going to happen for various reasons. I count myself lucky to have very recently been on a loco hauled Inter City train in Belgium recently. It is very sad for me to see it go but it is going to go. I'm glad I grew up with it and all the loco movements around stations.

 

[apk55]

You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?

The Germans use lots of loco-hauled double-deck stock primarily because the locomotives are available, either because they outlasted the stock they were originally hauling or because they became surplus thanks to shifts in the needs of freight locomotives. If they want to switch to double-deck EMUs, there is no shortage of manufacturers which would be happy to supply them.

Loco-hauled double-deck rolling stock is quite plentiful in North America, primarily because many of the areas using it for commuter rail are mixed-traffic lines also used by double-stack container trains (which do not cooperate happily with electrification) and the commuter rail systems in the north-east of the USA use them ahead of EMUs to cater for the fact that some lines rely on diesel haulage.

I did not say it was impossible to have a double deck EMU. With 1.5KV DC it would be possible to pack the control equipment in the roof over the bogies and under seats stairs etc. Construction of such a unit would not be easy as a compact equipment design would be required and equipment distributed in several locations with interconnecting wiring. Before the advent of modern low maintance electronics this would probably not have been possible, or at least very difficult.

However the Germans have the problem of requiring a massive heavy transformer which would either take up passenger space or require some other arrangment such as a single deck tranformer car (like the French double deck TGV). The compromises required to do this probably make loco hauled push pull operation an attractive alternative.

 

[Kettledrum]

What's the alternative though? There's currently no capacity to accomodate everyone who wants to travel on an off-peak ticket at rush hour, and won't be for many years to come (if ever).

People elsewhere cope with "peak" restrictions, I don't know why this is such an ordeal for those in northern England.

If the approach to price people off the railways works, one possibility is they will switch to commuting by car, and this leads to clogging up the motorways which is not in the public interest.

There is an unfashionable argument to say it's actually in the public interest to add capacity in the form of longer trains, reduce prices and get people off the roads. This is where looking at whether more loco hauled stock can be introduced gets very interesting, particularly as the locos are available....all be it with operational challenges such as platform space and comparative speed.

Many of the London services also have acute capacity issues, but in London the solution it's much more difficult and expensive to add capacity as you have to make platforms longer, and there is often no space to do that.

In other parts of the country, you often find very short trains (e.g. 2, 3 or 4 coaches) often using much longer platforms. You simply don't see this in London.

In these cases, looking where there might be possibilities to introduce loco hauled stock to increase capacity is perfectly sensible. My concerns would be

- where are all the coaches going to come from?
- can they keep up with the speed requirements of the timetable?
- who is going to pay for them?

 

[matacaster]

How often do you travel on the S&C? If Northern are unable to provide two class 158's they always tend to try and ensure that a class 153 is attached to a class 158, especially in the summer months. The Northern Dales had a decent summer this year and even with two class 158's the trains were often full and standing.

Foscl say that sometimes 'block' bookings are turned down because of insufficient stock, usually during the summer.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Foscl say that sometimes 'block' bookings are turned down because of insufficient stock, usually during the summer.

I know. I'm a member of Foscl, despite living in SW London. The main reason being that my in-laws live in Dentdale!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, when you look at the yards of locos, and see a sizeable proportion of a class that you're travelling behind, you can't help but imagine the wastage - although of course, ordering new locomotives from Alstom is giving business to another french company in a time when the french economy needs all the help it can get

It may be an idea but in my opinion it’s a daft one. A state organisation run as badly run as the SNCF should not be helping to prop up Alstom by buying new locomotives for the sake of it. They've got more than enough of their own problems to worry about. SNCF Fret is haemorrhaging freight traffic like you would not believe so there is no conceivable reason for them to order more locos. Alstom needs to up its game and start winning new orders from networks other than the SNCF. Just out of interest, what class are these new locomotives?

 

[fowler9]

I did not say it was impossible to have a double deck EMU. With 1.5KV DC it would be possible to pack the control equipment in the roof over the bogies and under seats stairs etc. Construction of such a unit would not be easy as a compact equipment design would be required and equipment distributed in several locations with interconnecting wiring. Before the advent of modern low maintance electronics this would probably not have been possible, or at least very difficult.

However the Germans have the problem of requiring a massive heavy transformer which would either take up passenger space or require some other arrangment such as a single deck tranformer car (like the French double deck TGV). The compromises required to do this probably make loco hauled push pull operation an attractive alternative.

I don't follow this. It is not impossible to have double deck EMU's because I have been on them in three countries across two continents. Is there an issue specific to Germany?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I don't follow this. It is not impossible to have double deck EMU's because I have been on them in three countries across two continents. Is there an issue specific to Germany?

I think he's saying that the 25KV AC OHLE supply may be an issue.

TGV Duplex is really a top and tail job with power cars that are single height, and the Dutch double deck EMU uses 1.5KV DC, so doesn't need a big heavy transformer.

That said, nothing is impossible, as I'm sure there are RER double deck EMUs that operate dual voltage at both 1.5KV DC and 25KV AC

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think he's saying that the 25KV AC OHLE supply may be an issue.

TGV Duplex is really a top and tail job with power cars that are single height, and the Dutch double deck EMU uses 1.5KV DC, so doesn't need a big heavy transformer.

That said, nothing is impossible, as I'm sure there are RER double deck EMUs that operate dual voltage at both 1.5KV DC and 25KV AC

What OHLE supply do they use on the Cote D'Azur? There are plenty of double deck EMU's running down there, which in turn replaced the loco hauled single deck push pull stock.

 

[cjmillsnun]

What OHLE supply do they use on the Cote D'Azur? There are plenty of double deck EMU's running down there, which in turn replaced the loco hauled single deck push pull stock.

Could be 25KV AC or 1.5KV DC. Classic lines are either or (but mainly DC)

 

[thetangoman]

I am not aware of any European countries that are actually still buying LHCS and loco's. MU's are winning, and I feel excluding sleepers and railtours, I feel that they will be gone in this country within my lifetime definitely, and probably almost extinct on the continent too.

I travel to Belgium once a year and the route from Ostend to Eupen via Brussels and that route is always loco hauled (push pull) with SNCB Class 18 (Siemens) built between 2009 & 2012

 

[jopsuk]

older SNCF TER double deck dual voltage EMUS appear to have a section for transformers etc over the bogie at the driving ends. Newer ones appear to have managed to package everything more neatly

 

[al.currie93]

The USA seems to be the champion of locomotive haulage to me; almost the entirity of their passenger railway is; DMUs are practicallu non-existant and EMUs are only used on the metro systems, while all Amtrak and I believe all regional and commuter trains are locomotive hauled. Amtrak is something else, but these regional services are very similar to the likes of London Midlands in terms of distance and functionality (except they don't go between major cities), so there must be a reason why they haven't gone MU.

The advantages of locomotives and coaches that I see come from versitility (shortening and lengthening, not being restricted to one type of traction etc), design simplicity (simpler and cheaper to construct, maintain and have longer life), greater availability of space in a coach design (more passengers in same sized coach) and segregation of coaching and traction (so one isn't dependent on the other; allows replacement of coaches before locomotive etc).

Arguabley units are better accelerating, there's no doubt about it, and use less (albeit only a little bit, and this could be solved with locomotive gangways) platform space, but with the advent of DBSOs these are their only advantage.

For me it's about choosing routes where the acceleration requirement is less of an issue and the advantages of locomotives and coaches outweight it. I personally see this as being journeys where the average time between stops is typically large, say greater than 15 minutes. In other words, if I had to allocate stock from an infinite pool of British units, coaches and locomotives tomorrow, that's how I would decide between locomotives and coaches or units.

 

[317666]

Without wishing to stray too far off topic, double-deck EMUs are most certainly possible in Germany: http://www.bahnbilder.de/1200/odeg-445-101-als-re-2-763258.jpg

 

[sprinterguy]

I am not aware of any European countries that are actually still buying LHCS and loco's. MU's are winning, and I feel excluding sleepers and railtours, I feel that they will be gone in this country within my lifetime definitely, and probably almost extinct on the continent too.

DB Fernverkehr ordered 27 new Bombardier Traxx class 146.2 locos in January 2011 to work with 137 new Bombardier Twindexx Vario coaches on Intercity services. These should have entered service in December 2013. DB also ordered an additional 32 class 146 locos in August 2012 for delivery during 2014, to replace older electric locos working with existing push-pull coaching stock.

Koleje Mazowieckie in Poland also took delivery of eleven Bombardier Traxx locos in 2011 to work with 37 Bombardier double deck coaches.

The bulk of DB Regios’ double deck coaching stock fleet is very modern, having been built in great numbers over the last 10 – 15 years, so there should be a long while to go before loco-hauled formations lose their dominance in this region. I would, however, be inclined to agree that we might be seeing the final generation of widespread use of locomotive hauled passenger trains across western Europe, especially now that Bombardier offer an electric multiple unit variant of their Twindexx platform of double deck stock.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did not say it was impossible to have a double deck EMU. With 1.5KV DC it would be possible to pack the control equipment in the roof over the bogies and under seats stairs etc. Construction of such a unit would not be easy as a compact equipment design would be required and equipment distributed in several locations with interconnecting wiring. Before the advent of modern low maintance electronics this would probably not have been possible, or at least very difficult.

However the Germans have the problem of requiring a massive heavy transformer which would either take up passenger space or require some other arrangment such as a single deck tranformer car (like the French double deck TGV). The compromises required to do this probably make loco hauled push pull operation an attractive alternative.

Deutsche Bahn have already ordered double-deck electric multiple units on Bombardier’s Twindexx platform, which should be seeing delivery about now:
http://www.railway-technology.com/n...pply-five-twindexx-vario-trains-deutsche-bahn

With Bombardier’s Twindexx platform now established, the use of double deck EMUs is spreading across continental Europe, with Switzerland having ordered 59 trains, totalling 436 coaches.

 

[fowler9]

I think he's saying that the 25KV AC OHLE supply may be an issue.

TGV Duplex is really a top and tail job with power cars that are single height, and the Dutch double deck EMU uses 1.5KV DC, so doesn't need a big heavy transformer.

That said, nothing is impossible, as I'm sure there are RER double deck EMUs that operate dual voltage at both 1.5KV DC and 25KV AC

Ah right. I follow now. Thanks for the info.

 

[AM9]

I don't follow this. It is not impossible to have double deck EMU's because I have been on them in three countries across two continents. Is there an issue specific to Germany?

Just to return to this, there is an issue in Germany with AC stock: The line frequency is 16 2/3Hz * (i.e. 1/3 of the nominal industrial 50Hz supply). this means that the transformer required to convert the 15kV line voltage down to a medium voltage supply for traction (c. 1kV) needs very high inductance and a heavy iron core. A 50Hz transformer is much lighter and smaller which was a consequential benefit of choosing the higher frequency across Europe for all new schemes. Austria, Switerland, Sweden and Norway also have low frequency ac electrified railways. It is the price that those countries paid for early adoption of ac powered traction.
So if Bombardier (and others) have produced designs that don't commit large amounts of potential passenger space to power supply equipment, they must have adopted some newer technology in the voltage trasformation kit.
* The three alpine countries (Germany, Austria and Switzerland) have now moved the frequency to 16.7Hz which gives a benefit with the LF conversion equipment.

 

[fowler9]

Just to return to this, there is an issue in Germany with AC stock: The line frequency is 16 2/3Hz * (i.e. 1/3 of the nominal industrial 50Hz supply). this means that the transformer required to convert the 15kV line voltage down to a medium voltage supply for traction (c. 1kV) needs very high inductance and a heavy iron core. A 50Hz transformer is much lighter and smaller which was a consequential benefit of choosing the higher frequency across Europe for all new schemes. Austria, Switerland, Sweden and Norway also have low frequency ac electrified railways. It is the price that those countries paid for early adoption of ac powered traction.
So if Bombardier (and others) have produced designs that don't commit large amounts of potential passenger space to power supply equipment, they must have adopted some newer technology in the voltage trasformation kit.
* The three alpine countries (Germany, Austria and Switzerland) have now moved the frequency to 16.7Hz which gives a benefit with the LF conversion equipment.

Cheers for the info mate. again much appreciated. Apologies if I sounded like I was saying the person I was replying to was wrong, I just didn't know the technical facts and was keen to find them out.