Services which ought to have a refreshment trolley

[Clip]

A menu like this would give a good profit margin.
Tea £2.40
Coffe £2.60
Latte £2.90
Crisps £1.40
Popcorn £1.50
Sandwiches £4.50
Lager £4.50

Etc...Enough to cover staffing/facilities costs

This is pretty much the pricing anyway on trains is it not? And look how many are struggling or have withdrawn the trolley due to those prices and not being able to turn a profit.

Now for a bit of a reality check

All of that comes to £19.80 for one of each.
Strip out £7.50 of that to pay the staff per hour
then say another £3 for the staff members tax ni and pension contribution
roughly a fiver for the stock( at a best guess)

And that leaves £4.50 which by the time you add in the admin costs + Maintenance and other ancillary costs for the trolley and water and that they are probably looking at about 50p if that from selling everything on the menu. And who the hell eats popcorn? So you have to be careful as if they sit there and don't sell then that's wastage and that costs you money.

Believe you me some TOCs which have withdrawn their offer have done so because they don't make any money from it not because they don't want it on their trains.

 

[yorksrob]

S&C do a cuppa for around £2. So do Grand Central, as I recall, so not too expensive in the scheme of things.

 

[DarloRich]

a: whichever services turn a profit for the company providing the service.

For instance I feel the LM services to Crewe should have a trolley. It was tried and failed.

 

[infobleep]

I've never quite figured out the business case for deciding which former South Western Railway services should have catering and which shouldn't. Maybe it's only the very fast ones that get it.

The 18.30 Waterloo to Portsmouth service has catering but the 18.15 doesn't and that is a 444. I know most 15 and 45 minutes past departures get overtaken but that one doesn't and must be popular with those who dislike the 450s.

I always felt they might do well late at night on the last trains home. There again maybe people are so use to buying something at the station before hand they wouldn't bother.

Again I'm not costing any of this. I'm surprised they run as many as they do, given Southern scrapped all if theirs. Maybe South West Trains made more money from other areas to be able to subsidise it or maybe it was and is actually making a profit!

I knew the North Downs Line use to have catering. It went away. Then briefly it came back and I've not seen it for a while. Maybe it just wasn't popular enough.

Personally I'm more likely to buy something on board if I know it's been cooked in board. So the travelling chef on Great Western Railway would more likely get a sale from me then just a regular shop on board. That doesn't mean a travelling chef is economical. I wouldn't know.

I know restaurant cars on trains are unlikely these days, Great Western Railway aside, but I would use one.

I remember once travelling to Birmingham on Cross Country in the morning. And thinking none of what they advertised sounded appealing for breakfast. The person came on to say they had cakes. I didn't fancy cake for breakfast. A bacon roll or sausage sandwich would have appealed more. How about some baked beans even. There is also porridge or other cereals. But crisps and cakes don't do it for me.

 

[47802]

Except the fact that the friends of the S&C manage it.

Is it run as a fully profitable business? How many trains does it actually run on I don't think its even advertised in the timetable so if there is no trolley nobody can complain about it. One Northern's longer routes where many passengers are likely to be on the train for a substancial part of the journey. Last time I was on the S&C the person with the trolley was also acting as a helper and guide for a block booking by the Friends of the S&C, when the trolley did come around eventually the coffee was reasonably priced but not very warm.

 

[47802]

That is indeed down to unsuitable interior specifications. Given that all of Northerns diesel units can, and do end up on journeys of around two hours, there's no excuse not to have included table provision in previous refurbs. The excellent job done on some of the 150's used in Wessex is a good example of what can be done.

Northern are getting over 200 carriages with 2+2 seating and tables.

 

[xotGD]

Northern's Leeds - Nottingham services ought to have a trolley. (And run through to Carlisle, but that is off-topic!)

On TPE services, there never seems to be much bought from the trolley (when it is able to make its way through the train). Does it make money?

 

[bearhugger]

The OP asked which services we thought ought to have a trolley, rather than a costed business case.

I simply went by which ones I would like to have a cup of tea on.

As it happens, the cafe at Middlesbrough station had a trolley on the Whitby line one year. It seemed to do a reasonable trade !

The issue with the Middlesbrough to Whitby line was that it is busy on Saturday and holidays on the 10:28 departure from Boro, often full to bursting on a 156xxx, and the guy running it couldn’t get down the train and people couldn’t get to him so didn’t make that much.
The TransPennine Express from Middlesbrough to York would be a better service for a trolley in my opinion.

 

[PHILIPE]

I see your point but Arriva TW 3+2s operate trolleys...

What ATW 3+2s ? They haven't got any.

 

[PHILIPE]

GWR Cardiff to Portsmouths after lunch time Saturdays and through Sundays. There are just as many passengers travelling acccording to overcrowding messages. Yet, on reflection, the trains might be too full to get a trolley through. Trolleys tend not to board if 150s, both 2+2 and 3+2 seatings. are substituting.

 

[trainmananthon]

Is it run as a fully profitable business? How many trains does it actually run on I don't think its even advertised in the timetable so if there is no trolley nobody can complain about it. One Northern's longer routes where many passengers are likely to be on the train for a substancial part of the journey. Last time I was on the S&C the person with the trolley was also acting as a helper and guide for a block booking by the Friends of the S&C, when the trolley did come around eventually the coffee was reasonably priced but not very warm.

The one on the S&C is a not for profit organisation run by the Settle Carlisle railway development company. Although you do occasionally get volunteers like me helping out with them.

Northern don't advertise the service in their own timetables but we make our own timetable with line maps etc in it which does show the trolley service. Although I have heard from official sources that if you don't provide the service on a train where it is advertised in their timetable there is a hefty fine!

The trolleys are on the 0849, 0947, 1049 and 1249 from Leeds midweek, joining at Settle and 0853, 1155, 1404 and 1506 from Carlisle, joining at Carlisle or Appleby.

Northern's Leeds - Nottingham services ought to have a trolley. (And run through to Carlisle, but that is off-topic!)

On TPE services, there never seems to be much bought from the trolley (when it is able to make its way through the train). Does it make money?

I believed the Settle Carlisle development company did do a trial between Carlisle and Nottingham but it never took off. Same with the Cumbrian coast.

 

[richardjeeves]

I once saw a trolley waiting to get on a Cardiff to Manchester service at Shrewsbury.

Wen a lone 150 rolled in i heard the member of staff say something along the lines of "sod that" and headed beck towards the lifts.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

I'm not sure catering runs at a profit anywhere on the network. It is seen as part of the service and as such the expense incurred to provide it is built into the ticket price in the same way the drivers wages are.

 

[roversfan2001]

If they charge a high enough price, then they can make a profit.

The higher the price, the fewer people will buy it. Yes £5 a cup is more profit per unit but no one will pay that. Basic economics.

 

[ScotTrains]

All Cross Country services in Scotland should have catering. Currently south bound services don't serve catering until well after Edinburgh. This means services such as the 0820 departure from Aberdeen have to wait almost 3hrs before catering is served.

VTEC and local operator Scotrail have catering on almost all trains on this route, yet long distance operator Cross Country don't!

 

[LeeLivery]

Personally, if it's not a traditional InterCity service I don't really miss catering.

I am not one for slagging off TOCs and I love EMT but their catering does seem a little hit and miss. If it were more reliable, would you use it?

I've overheard several people complaining about the lack of buffet on weekdays. The last journey I was on, London to Nottingham (on Saturday) there was no catering service at all. However, the high prices just mean I buy food and drink before I get on. £1.60 is crazy for a small bottle of water when I can get a normal size one for 35p in an "upmarket supermarket" round the corner from St Pancras! In first class however, it is pretty good.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it run as a fully profitable business? How many trains does it actually run on I don't think its even advertised in the timetable so if there is no trolley nobody can complain about it. One Northern's longer routes where many passengers are likely to be on the train for a substancial part of the journey. Last time I was on the S&C the person with the trolley was also acting as a helper and guide for a block booking by the Friends of the S&C, when the trolley did come around eventually the coffee was reasonably priced but not very warm.

I'm not sure how profitable it is in the most commercial sense, but I would assume it must contribute proceeds to the cause rather than abstract them from it.

It runs on a number of day time trains, Monday to Saturday, and yes, it does appear in the Northern Rail timetable.

 

[yorksrob]

Northern are getting over 200 carriages with 2+2 seating and tables.

Which will be an improvement. However if 150's are going to be expected to travel on routes of 1 - 2 hours for example, these need to get tables too.

 

[yorksrob]

The issue with the Middlesbrough to Whitby line was that it is busy on Saturday and holidays on the 10:28 departure from Boro, often full to bursting on a 156xxx, and the guy running it couldn’t get down the train and people couldn’t get to him so didn’t make that much.
The TransPennine Express from Middlesbrough to York would be a better service for a trolley in my opinion.

Having travelled on those services, I can well believe that. It fits into the fact that the route needs a wholesale improvement in it's frequency and capacity, but that's probably off topic.

 

[yorksrob]

The one on the S&C is a not for profit organisation run by the Settle Carlisle railway development company. Although you do occasionally get volunteers like me helping out with them.

Northern don't advertise the service in their own timetables but we make our own timetable with line maps etc in it which does show the trolley service. Although I have heard from official sources that if you don't provide the service on a train where it is advertised in their timetable there is a hefty fine!

The trolleys are on the 0849, 0947, 1049 and 1249 from Leeds midweek, joining at Settle and 0853, 1155, 1404 and 1506 from Carlisle, joining at Carlisle or Appleby.



I believed the Settle Carlisle development company did do a trial between Carlisle and Nottingham but it never took off. Same with the Cumbrian coast.

My latest timetable, which is in the purple, Northern branded range, includes the trolley.

 

[MG11]

My latest timetable, which is in the purple, Northern branded range, includes the trolley.

Do Northern not advertise it because they don't feel they can trust the reliability of a not-for-profit organisation perhaps?

 

[nw1]

Generally I opt for in-station catering as it's more reliable (had cases on XC a number of times when the scheduled catering didn't materialise) and better value (slightly lower prices for slightly more tea, nowadays it's something like £2.10 for a medium tea from a station vs £2.40 or so for a samller tea from a trolley). However if I have insufficient time and/or the journey's long (e.g. XC) I'll opt for the trolley so I think both should be an option.

I'd say that "if it had a buffet car or trolley in the 80s, it should have a trolley, or buffet car if suitable stock, now". So down here, all Weymouths, Portsmouth fasts, Brighton fasts, Eastbourne, etc.

 

[MG11]

I saw the WAGN Wheels documentary on YouTube, and the KGX - King's Lynn services had a trolley - which is a similar distance to London - Norwich. How would people think about catering being reinstated on that route?

 

[DarloRich]

Do Northern not advertise it because they don't feel they can trust the reliability of a not-for-profit organisation perhaps?

I assume it is because Northern are not in control of resourcing and therefore don't want to promise a service they are not able to deliver.

 

[PHILIPE]

I once saw a trolley waiting to get on a Cardiff to Manchester service at Shrewsbury.

Wen a lone 150 rolled in i heard the member of staff say something along the lines of "sod that" and headed beck towards the lifts.

ATW use trolleys daily on 150 worked Pembroke Dock services.

 

[yorksrob]

Do Northern not advertise it because they don't feel they can trust the reliability of a not-for-profit organisation perhaps?

As far as I can see they do advertise it !

 

[uww11x]

Mcdonalds does the job for me

 

[Ianno87]

I saw the WAGN Wheels documentary on YouTube, and the KGX - King's Lynn services had a trolley - which is a similar distance to London - Norwich. How would people think about catering being reinstated on that route?

There are coffee places galore on and around Cambridge station, and a couple of decent options at Ely (plus Costa in the adjacent Tesco). Virtually everyone will be pre-equipped on boarding.

 

[yorksrob]

But London to Norwich is certainly far enough to finish ones drink and feel thirsty again half way through. That distance is definitely long enough for catering.

 

[221129]

All Cross Country services in Scotland should have catering. Currently south bound services don't serve catering until well after Edinburgh. This means services such as the 0820 departure from Aberdeen have to wait almost 3hrs before catering is served.

VTEC and local operator Scotrail have catering on almost all trains on this route, yet long distance operator Cross Country don't!

Because there are no crew based anywhere in Scotland other than Edinburgh.