Settle-Carlisle services stop at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley: why?

[Iskra]

Shipley is essentially for the sizeable population of Bradford. Keighley is a sizeable place in itself. I'm not really sure what's so bizarre about a 2 car/3 DMU serving these places. All other trains call at these stations. And when you're bothering to serve Dent and Garsdale, I'm not sure you can question serving places with significantly higher passenger numbers.

 

[xotGD]

Leeds - Carlisle and Leeds - Morecambe services ought to be pick up only at Shipley. Shipleyites have both the Airedale and the Bradford services to get them home; they should be kept off the long distance services.

Bingley, Keighley and Skipton on the other hand need these services to supplement the half hourly Airedale service.

 

[30907]

or maybe because they cut the Skipton Lancaster service down to a 1 train service and the offering at those 3 stations was not enough.

There was a considerable gap (15 years?) between the cuts to the Lancaster service and stopping daytime trains at Gargrave and Long Preston. I wonder whether the demise of Pennine Motors was a factor?

 

[Ken H]

There was a considerable gap (15 years?) between the cuts to the Lancaster service and stopping daytime trains at Gargrave and Long Preston. I wonder whether the demise of Pennine Motors was a factor?

Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire stepped in and now run a reasonable Skipton-Settle-Kirkby Lonsdale - Lancaster service Mon - Sat.

http://www.kirkbylonsdalecoachhire.co.uk/index.php/bus-services/timetable-580-581-582

Skipton - Settle is commercial, but beyond that its subsidised.

 

[cactustwirly]

As much as I love the S&C I do find the number of station stops exceedingly tedious, you could certainly knock Bingley out and maybe Shipley for some services, and given the improved Lancaster Service now axe the Gargrave and Long Preston stops that some services make, would also reduce the number of commuters using these trains especially on the evening trains out of Leeds

Why?
It's a regional train, not a headline IC train!
Why shouldn't it carry commuters? Isn't that its purpose?

 

[Ken H]

Why?
It's a regional train, not a headline IC train!
Why shouldn't it carry commuters? Isn't that its purpose?

no.
its an inter regional service from W yorks to N Cumbria with onward connections to Scotland.
There is a perfectly adequate regular service between Leeds/Bradford and Skipton

 

[cactustwirly]

no.
its an inter regional service from W yorks to N Cumbria with onward connections to Scotland.
There is a perfectly adequate regular service between Leeds/Bradford and Skipton

Except when it's rammed full in the peaks!
stopping at Shipley, Bingley & Keighley provides direct connections to N yorks.
These are places with a large size, and I bet their usage is bigger than all of the S&C stations combined.

Sorry I forgot, the S&C is an intercity line, which is too premier to stop within West Yorks, for all of those thousands of people travelling from Leeds to Glasgow

 

[edwin_m]

While we have Liverpool-Norwich trains that stop at the likes of Chinley and Dore in the peaks, it's hard to make the case that a train between Leeds and Lancaster or Carlisle shouldn't be stopping for "commuters".

 

[Ken H]

While we have Liverpool-Norwich trains that stop at the likes of Chinley and Dore in the peaks, it's hard to make the case that a train between Leeds and Lancaster or Carlisle shouldn't be stopping for "commuters".

There isnt a half hourly service of 4 car electrics running in the hope valley.

 

[Iskra]

This is the crux of the debate, who is the service for and what is it's purpose? Nobody seems to know. To confuse matters more there is 1tpd that runs express. What I do know is that it could do with a daily 'Jacobite style' train in the summer to soak up some of the tourists. A full coach party block booking half of a packed 2 car 158 is not on.

I agree it is tedious calling at all stations, but as someone whose local station used to be Garsdale, the frequency is not currently strong enough to support every other service running 'fast,' but perhaps some form of skip stopping could take place or perhaps less stops for the more tourist based stations during the winter?

 

[Ken H]

This is the crux of the debate, who is the service for and what is it's purpose? Nobody seems to know. To confuse matters more there is 1tpd that runs express. What I do know is that it could do with a daily 'Jacobite style' train in the summer to soak up some of the tourists. A full coach party block booking half of a packed 2 car 158 is not on.

I agree it is tedious calling at all stations, but as someone whose local station used to be Garsdale, the frequency is not currently strong enough to support every other service running 'fast,' but perhaps some form of skip stopping could take place or perhaps less stops for the more tourist based stations during the winter?

So its:-
Grannies taking a trip. Leeds - Carlisle, into Costa for a coffee and cake and take the same train back
Locals going to Leeds or Carlisle to shop
People going walking
Gricers
Commuting into Leeds or Carlisle

Is that enough to fill 8 2 car trains a day? well clearly it is because Northern usually put on a 3 car on some diagrams and even the odd 4 car in July/August.

So why ram your train full of £6.90 Leeds - Keighley passengers when you can fill it with people paying £30 to go to Carlisle?

 

[cactustwirly]

So its:-
Grannies taking a trip. Leeds - Carlisle, into Costa for a coffee and cake and take the same train back
Locals going to Leeds or Carlisle to shop
People going walking
Gricers
Commuting into Leeds or Carlisle

Is that enough to fill 8 2 car trains a day? well clearly it is because Northern usually put on a 3 car on some diagrams and even the odd 4 car in July/August.

So why ram your train full of £6.90 Leeds - Keighley passengers when you can fill it with people paying £30 to go to Carlisle?

Who said that Keighley passengers just want to go to Leeds?
What about the Shipley, Bingley & Keighley passengers travelling to Ribblehead, Settle, Hellifield etc

 

[Iskra]

So its:-
Grannies taking a trip. Leeds - Carlisle, into Costa for a coffee and cake and take the same train back
Locals going to Leeds or Carlisle to shop
People going walking
Gricers
Commuting into Leeds or Carlisle

Is that enough to fill 8 2 car trains a day? well clearly it is because Northern usually put on a 3 car on some diagrams and even the odd 4 car in July/August.

So why ram your train full of £6.90 Leeds - Keighley passengers when you can fill it with people paying £30 to go to Carlisle?

At the expense of the rest of the Northern network. 2 car services on Nottingham-Leeds are even more shambolic. It's time for a dedicated tourist service.

I agree about Leeds-Keighley passengers, but Keighley-Glasgow passengers could be even more lucrative...

Why would a Keighley-Skipton passenger get a slower train when they can get a faster one at the same price?

 

[cactustwirly]

So its:-
Grannies taking a trip. Leeds - Carlisle, into Costa for a coffee and cake and take the same train back
Locals going to Leeds or Carlisle to shop
People going walking
Gricers
Commuting into Leeds or Carlisle

Is that enough to fill 8 2 car trains a day? well clearly it is because Northern usually put on a 3 car on some diagrams and even the odd 4 car in July/August.

So why ram your train full of £6.90 Leeds - Keighley passengers when you can fill it with people paying £30 to go to Carlisle?

Or you can fill the train full of £6.90 Leeds - Keighley pasengers, and £25 Keighley - Carlisle passengers

 

[Ken H]

Or you can fill the train full of £6.90 Leeds - Keighley pasengers, and £25 Keighley - Carlisle passengers

or use the seat reservation system to give the long distance passengers priority for seats.

 

[xotGD]

Why would a Keighley-Skipton passenger get a slower train when they can get a faster one at the same price?

Because the first train to depart Keighley will be the first to arrive in Skipton, regardless of how many times it stops. No normal is going to reject the 333 just because there is a 158 five minutes behind.

 

[LowLevel]

While we have Liverpool-Norwich trains that stop at the likes of Chinley and Dore in the peaks, it's hard to make the case that a train between Leeds and Lancaster or Carlisle shouldn't be stopping for "commuters".

There isn't much else to stop - Chinley is a busy railhead for commuters and so is Dore!

 

[Bantamzen]

Leeds - Carlisle and Leeds - Morecambe services ought to be pick up only at Shipley. Shipleyites have both the Airedale and the Bradford services to get them home; they should be kept off the long distance services.

Bingley, Keighley and Skipton on the other hand need these services to supplement the half hourly Airedale service.

Good luck enforcing that one....

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

In my mlre crayonista daydreams i'vethought about extending the Airedale trains up through Gargrave to Hellifield and having them terminate there, which could take those calls off the S&C regional trains and better connect those areas of housing growth to employment centres in Leeds/Bradford. You could even run the Clitheroe trains up there too via the freight only line if you were feeling wild. As I said, this is all with the crayons out!

Of course it would completely bugger the timings of the diagrams and need extra stock and so much more, but it would be nice ,- although this may purely be because I would love to live in Gargrave if the train service was better!

 

[Ianigsy]

I think there have been aspirations in recent times to get Leeds-Settle up to hourly as the area between Skipton and Settle is becoming quite an attractive upmarket commuter area, but the first place a unit can reverse after Settle is Blea Moor (which is presumably why the last train turns back at Ribblehead).

 

[Ken H]

I think there have been aspirations in recent times to get Leeds-Settle up to hourly as the area between Skipton and Settle is becoming quite an attractive upmarket commuter area, but the first place a unit can reverse after Settle is Blea Moor (which is presumably why the last train turns back at Ribblehead).

you are right. trains can reverse at Settle Jct (as the trains from Clitheroe do on a winter Sunday when Northern can be arsed to run them) and at Blea Moor, which is what the late train from leeds does.
I assume they can also reverse at Garsdale and K Stephen too but I dont really know 100%

 

[30907]

you are right. trains can reverse at Settle Jct (as the trains from Clitheroe do on a winter Sunday when Northern can be arsed to run them) and at Blea Moor, which is what the late train from leeds does.
I assume they can also reverse at Garsdale and K Stephen too but I dont really know 100%

Kirkby Stephen was regularly used for several years before the early through trains were introduced, Appleby as well (most recently with the Eden Brows landslip). Garsdale is possible when the box is open, but I don't recall it being used even during engineering work.

 

[route101]

or use the seat reservation system to give the long distance passengers priority for seats.

Has there ever been seat reservations on this route?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Who said that Keighley passengers just want to go to Leeds?
What about the Shipley, Bingley & Keighley passengers travelling to Ribblehead, Settle, Hellifield etc

Simples, surely? They get on one of the frequent Airedale EMUs and change at Skipton.

But I accept that it's probably fully justifiable stopping at Shipley.

 

[cactustwirly]

Simples, surely? They get on one of the frequent Airedale EMUs and change at Skipton.

But I accept that it's probably fully justifiable stopping at Shipley.

But that makes the journey more unattractive, we should be attracting people to trains, not driving them away into their cars.

 

[70014IronDuke]

But that makes the journey more unattractive, we should be attracting people to trains, not driving them away into their cars.

Unattractive to whom? To the folks of Bingley and Keigthley, sure - but not to everyone else on the train who wants to go beyond Skipton. I think you should take a look at the EMT timetable and consider the folks of Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering - FAR bigger places than Bingley and Keighley. They get one train per hour north of Kettering. On your logic, you should stop at least some of the fast Sheffields and Nottinghams at these stations.

 

[Ianno87]

Unattractive to whom? To the folks of Bingley and Keigthley, sure - but not to everyone else on the train who wants to go beyond Skipton. I think you should take a look at the EMT timetable and consider the folks of Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering - FAR bigger places than Bingley and Keighley. They get one train per hour north of Kettering. On your logic, you should stop at least some of the fast Sheffields and Nottinghams at these stations.

Not a valid comparison.

Sheffield and Nottingham (and Leicester/Derby) are far bigger markets than probably every station Gargrave to Langwathby combined, plus probably Carlisle too.

 

[cactustwirly]

Unattractive to whom? To the folks of Bingley and Keigthley, sure - but not to everyone else on the train who wants to go beyond Skipton. I think you should take a look at the EMT timetable and consider the folks of Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering - FAR bigger places than Bingley and Keighley. They get one train per hour north of Kettering. On your logic, you should stop at least some of the fast Sheffields and Nottinghams at these stations.

Because that's different, your comparing a lowly regional service to a fast intercity service between major cities, where the stops add a major time penalty
I don't see why stopping at Bingley etc is so unnattractive.
It only adds 6 minutes to the journey time, it isn't as if the S&C is exactly fast anyway with barely 60 mph all the way to Carlisle, stopping at every little village...

 

[John B]

I have made countless journeys on this line between Leeds,Lancaster& Morecambe usually on a two car pacer. Not once have I seen standing passengers on a journey, so what would be the commercial sense for a train operator to limit the number of stopping places. There would be a gain of a few minutes in the journey time which would then probably be added to the terminus layover. No saving of a unit and very little, if any saving on crew times.

 

[John B]

Sorry, I just realised that the topic is Settle, Carlisle rather than Leeds, Morecambe although the case I put for the latter would apply to the former.