Settle-Carlisle services stop at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley: why?

[Ianno87]

The signalling on the Aire Valley is poor considering the traffic it gets. It could do with an upgrade to allow more trains to run as it's quite common for the semi fasts to crawl along behind a stopper

That's not the signalling - it's one train being faster than the other. Alternative signalling won't stop the catching up from happening.

 

[northernchris]

That's not the signalling - it's one train being faster than the other. Alternative signalling won't stop the catching up from happening.

The signalling is quite far apart though which must limit capacity

 

[Esker-pades]

That's not the signalling - it's one train being faster than the other. Alternative signalling won't stop the catching up from happening.

If one has signals placed closer together then trains can run at line speed closer.

 

[30907]

If one has signals placed closer together then trains can run at line speed closer.

The resignalling was done minimally, just like the electrification - otherwise it wouldn't have happened at all.

Tonight’s stats from the 1649
Gargrave 15 off, 1 on
Hellifield 10 off, 0 on
Long Preston 7 off, 2 on
So I think it’s worth stopping

As a matter of interest, how many were left on board after Long Preston?

Could a compromise be stopping peak hour long distance services in the rush hours, but omitting them the rest of the time. And stop everything at Keighley - which is a far larger town than Bingley or Shipley

I cannot see the point of saving 3-4 minutes by omitting two of the stations that generate a fair amount of S and C/Bentham Line traffic - in fact, there would be a case for including them in an hypoypthetical fast service, just as was the case when Shipley first had its extra platform.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The one service that I think certainly should run fast is the morning Lancaster to Leeds service. Typically a Pacer, often a 142, it reaches Keighley at around 0817 - 10 minutes after the previous Leeds train (which is the aforementioned crush loaded ex-Carlisle service, which particularly in Winter is prone to delays and cancellation on its long route before Skipton) and nearly 20 minutes after the last 333.

I have seen this Pacer utterly crammed to bursting point leaving Keighley. When there is a 333 only a couple of minutes behind - but without platform staff to advise people of this (and with people not necessarily knowing that the next advertised service is a much bigger set), they just keep crowding on.

It should really be retimed to follow not long behind a 333, or to run fast from Skipton. It adds minimal extra capacity and if it ran fast, the following Leeds service could be retimed slightly earlier.

 

[Adam0984]

As a matter of interest, how many were left on board after Long Preston?

After Long Preston we probably had about 50 on left with about half of them at Carlisle

 

[Ken H]

is the low spec signalling on the shipley-skipton line the reason for the very long waits at Kildwick level crossing.

I was in an ambulance blue lighting it to A+E at Airedale hosp and we were stuck there for a long time.

when I go to the hosp I now go east down the bypass to the next roundabout, then past Steeton and Silsden stn, then right at the lights at the top to avoid the crossing. (Not planning going again - all sorted now )

 

[30907]

is the low spec signalling on the shipley-skipton line the reason for the very long waits at Kildwick level crossing.

I was in an ambulance blue lighting it to A+E at Airedale hosp and we were stuck there for a long time.

when I go to the hosp I now go east down the bypass to the next roundabout, then past Steeton and Silsden stn, then right at the lights at the top to avoid the crossing. (Not planning going again - all sorted now )

Essentially, yes. TBH I am surprised an emergency ambulance would risk that route, though Steeton Top and Crosshills both jam badly too.

 

[30907]

The one service that I think certainly should run fast is the morning Lancaster to Leeds service. Typically a Pacer, often a 142, it reaches Keighley at around 0817 - 10 minutes after the previous Leeds train (which is the aforementioned crush loaded ex-Carlisle service, which particularly in Winter is prone to delays and cancellation on its long route before Skipton) and nearly 20 minutes after the last 333.

I have seen this Pacer utterly crammed to bursting point leaving Keighley. When there is a 333 only a couple of minutes behind - but without platform staff to advise people of this (and with people not necessarily knowing that the next advertised service is a much bigger set), they just keep crowding on.

It should really be retimed to follow not long behind a 333, or to run fast from Skipton. It adds minimal extra capacity and if it ran fast, the following Leeds service could be retimed slightly earlier.

I've seen it as a 3-car though, and there were seats to spare at Shipley.
Swapping the paths would work, but it would be 4 minutes slower as a result and you would have a 45-min gap between Skipton-Leeds stoppers.
Reverting to its old path gets it into Leeds after 0900, and I suspect that is a no-no (even if it can be pathed). Nothing is ideal!

 

[tbtc]

Just looked on realtimetrains for Keighley between 1700 and 1800 tonight

There are 6 trains shown
Are you seriously telling me that you cant do more than 6 trains an hour on a double track railway with modern signalling (or is the constraint Leeds station?)

First of all you've got to get a platform at Leeds (which is so congested that we are closing the car park to accommodate one more platform for the Shipley side...)

Then all Shipley services need to fight for a path towards Armley with the Harrogate DMUs (four Harrogate services per hour at busy times - no chance of removing some of them!)

Then there are at least six EMUs per hour as far as Apperley Junction (standard off peak pattern is 2x Ilkley, 2x Skipton, 2x Bradford, i.e. ignoring peak extras/ Morecambe services)

Then there's the flat junction at Shipley to negotiate (Bradford - Ilkley services cross on the flat a total of four times per hour, eastbound Bradford - Leeds cross the path of the Leeds - Skipton services on the flat two times per hour).

Then there are the two EMUs per hour from Bradford to Skipton to deal with, as you try to get further up the Aire Valley.

Plus potentially non-passenger services (e.g. yesterday there were http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H46656/2018/12/07/advanced and http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U54770/2018/12/07/advanced in the evening rush hour - but there are paths available for freight that aren't used too - just because there's no freight using that path on a given day, the flexibility is still in the system).

Then remember that the current EMU takes around forty five minutes to cover twenty six miles from Leeds to Skipton, so any non-stop S&C service isn't going to get the chance to be particularly "fast" - the speeds of existing all-stops EMUs (not just Leeds - Skipton but also the Leeds - Shipley and Shipley - Bradford services) mean that your additional path wouldn't be much faster - it might not have the short distance passengers on it but it'd be running so slowly that there wouldn't be much speed benefit from omitting those stations - you might be stuck at reds outside those stations anyway!

I'm not saying that the status quo is ideal, I'm not saying I'd design it like it is if I were starting with a blank sheet of paper. But the reality is that there's no real capacity on the EMUs to accommodate passengers turfed off the longer distance services, there's no paths for additional longer distance services, there's no simple solutions.

Tonight’s stats from the 1649
Gargrave 15 off, 1 on
Hellifield 10 off, 0 on
Long Preston 7 off, 2 on

Presumably the numbers getting off at Shipley/ Bingley/ Keighley outnumber these?

The one service that I think certainly should run fast is the morning Lancaster to Leeds service. Typically a Pacer, often a 142, it reaches Keighley at around 0817 - 10 minutes after the previous Leeds train (which is the aforementioned crush loaded ex-Carlisle service, which particularly in Winter is prone to delays and cancellation on its long route before Skipton) and nearly 20 minutes after the last 333

I'm coming round to thinking that we should restrict any Lancaster/ Morecambe services to portion working with Carlisle services - that would then free up paths for additional EMUs south of Skipton - a number of the Lancaster services already run within half an hour of the S&C services (there are two departures from Long Preston to Leeds within nine minutes of each other in the morning rush hour!). That way the long distance services would be at least four coaches long (possibly six) and we could use the vv useful 17:25 path out of Leeds for a four coach EMU (rather than wasting it on a Pacer/ Sprinter).

After Long Preston we probably had about 50 on left with about half of them at Carlisle

So the peak service out of Leeds in the afternoon could be run with a 153 north of Long Preston (e.g. all the Settle/ Appleby/ Carlisle/ Scottish passengers). Interesting.

 

[Adam0984]

Presumably the numbers getting off at Shipley/ Bingley/ Keighley outnumber these?

I'm coming round to thinking that we should restrict any Lancaster/ Morecambe services to portion working with Carlisle services - that would then free up paths for additional EMUs south of Skipton - a number of the Lancaster services already run within half an hour of the S&C services (there are two departures from Long Preston to Leeds within nine minutes of each other in the morning rush hour!). That way the long distance services would be at least four coaches long (possibly six) and we could use the vv useful 17:25 path out of Leeds for a four coach EMU (rather than wasting it on a Pacer/ Sprinter).

So the peak service out of Leeds in the afternoon could be run with a 153 north of Long Preston (e.g. all the Settle/ Appleby/ Carlisle/ Scottish passengers). Interesting.

I picked the train up at Skipton so don’t know about any stations before that.
Personally I like the hourly north of Skipton service alternating between Carlisle and Lancaster.
Before the May change the 17:26 was an EMU and was absolutely rammed so a 17:18 EMU and a 17:25 limited stop then the 17:40 EMU seems to be spreading the passengers out better

 

[xotGD]

I picked the train up at Skipton so don’t know about any stations before that.
Personally I like the hourly north of Skipton service alternating between Carlisle and Lancaster.
Before the May change the 17:26 was an EMU and was absolutely rammed so a 17:18 EMU and a 17:25 limited stop then the 17:40 EMU seems to be spreading the passengers out better

Except when the 17.18 is cancelled or, like Thursday, is delayed at Neville Hill and the 17.25 leaves first. Totally rammed and extremely hot.

 

[Ken H]

...
So the peak service out of Leeds in the afternoon could be run with a 153 north of Long Preston (e.g. all the Settle/ Appleby/ Carlisle/ Scottish passengers). Interesting.

Depends on the weather. in the summer the S&C trains are busy between Skipton and carlisle.

 

[Adam0984]

Except when the 17.18 is cancelled or, like Thursday, is delayed at Neville Hill and the 17.25 leaves first. Totally rammed and extremely hot.

Oh I know the 1718 hasn’t had a good track record recently

Depends on the weather. in the summer the S&C trains are busy between Skipton and carlisle.

Defo during the summer months they are all a lot busier with tourists and walkers