Severe delays “because a train arrived too early”

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by island, 11 Jun 2019.

  1. island

    island Established Member

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    South Western Railway is reporting disruption all morning (until 1000hrs) to and from Waterloo because “earlier today, a train arrived London Waterloo earlier than scheduled”.

    How does that work exactly?
     
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  3. Saperstein

    Saperstein Member

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    I saw that and wondered the same, perhaps a SPAD incident?

    (it’s also being described as “an operational incident”)

    http://m.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/disruption/details/7FE51872376B44F4A0EABEE06AB9ED14
     
  4. akm

    akm Member

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    On one service the guard described the cause as 'a signalling error', which doesn't fill one with confidence...
     
  5. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Perhaps it had to be held in the throat awaiting its platform, and the signaller accidentally put it where it got in the way of outbound trains? The 2017 alterations led to a certain loss of flexibility, so I wouldn’t be so quick to suppose a signal was passed...
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    If this happened at Manchester Piccadilly P14 it'd cause havoc.
     
  7. paulravuslante

    paulravuslante Member

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    I’ve been in a situation where my train has blocked another as I wasn’t held at a particular signal as planned. Therefore I arrived earlier than scheduled and then awaited my booked departure time. Meanwhile a train that should have bypassed mine is stuck behind me and then delayed until I departed.

    Maybe similar happened here at Waterloo in the peak causing a knock on effect to all trains.
     
  8. causton

    causton Established Member

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    It was actually the empty stock for the steam hauled services. It was let out early and held closer to Waterloo than it should have been, which delayed 2C12, which then presumably mucked everything else up!
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Is the general idea that the steam stock is supposed to arrive well before the morning peak, to avoid any possible conflicts?
     
  10. SWT_USER

    SWT_USER Member

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  11. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    14 minute turn round if it works properly. Hope the day trippers are on the ball when boarding.

    It has always seemed quite amazing that this is planned for the very middle of the morning peak. Even if it does depart via the Windsor reversible and head off via the WLL on a roundabout route to Windsor.

    The Windsor reversible isn’t supposed to be available in the long term, if proposals for the track reallocation in the Wessex route study happen during CP6. Maybe WCRC accept that this service has a probable short life span...

    Wasn’t the plan that P19 would generally be used as one of a group including the 5 former international platforms, so that Windsor and Reading side trains consistently used the same part of the station?
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2019
  12. Saperstein

    Saperstein Member

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    Agreed in hindsight but is this usual with these sort of services?
     
  13. SWT_USER

    SWT_USER Member

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    Difficult to say with this service specifically as this is only the second week it has run. That said we are constantly told that Waterloo is at capacity so it's surprising they have found room for a kettle in the morning peak.
     
  14. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    That’s why I’m wondering if they’ve just seen an opportunity for this summer only, and it won’t necessarily fit in with the longer term timetable...
     
  15. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Signallers and control staff will generally know from experience that an early train is potentially far more disruptive than a late one. It can sit somewhere waiting for a crew relief, or can block a layout if a platform or siding is not yet available to receive it. All the more so if it hasn’t been spotted so catches everyone out unawares.
     
  16. STEVIEBOY1

    STEVIEBOY1 Established Member

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    Have things returned to normal now at Waterloo and did the steam train do it's three runs to Windsor today, I think there may be another trip tonight to the Surrey Hills?

    Hope all is ok, as I think I am going behind the same loco & TOC this coming Thursday morning from London Victoria on a Kent circular railtour?
     
  17. bhb

    bhb Member

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    That train certainly hadn't arrived in platform 19 by 07.53.
    Presumably that's what caused the 07.50 to reading to be effectively cancelled for passengers requiring stations before Staines. It caused quite a lot of other delays for trains that were meant to be going in the Putney direction. I hope this isn't going to be a regular occurrence.
     
  18. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    The train arrived early at Latchmere Jn but still arrived 2 minutes late into Waterloo.

    Empty coaching stock to Hounslow was 1.5 minutes late leaving platform 9.should have left at 7:48. Don't know if that was due to the steam train or some other reason.

    Its amazing how things like this can lead to massive delays and the. There are times when you see big delays and your surprised there was a huge knock on effect
     
  19. Dren Ahmeti

    Dren Ahmeti Member

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    Two “disruptive” events occurred:
    5Z80 (0553 Southall WCR - Waterloo) was allowed to run 20E, and then held on the Windsor Reversible until 07:42.

    This then delayed 2C12 (0609 Reading - Waterloo) by 13 minutes, and then further delayed it at Nine Elms Junction for another 9 minutes - arriving 22 minutes late at WAT.

    At the same time, 9B88 (formed of 2x442) was offered a “wrong route” into Platform 9 - as the 442’s are limited as to which platforms they can use at Waterloo - the Signaller, the Service Delivery Controller and Driver all recognised the wrong route and made sure the train did not take it.

    The delaying factor on 9B88 would’ve been the route timing out, as it takes about 2-3 minutes to do so.

    Now make a conclusion yourselves!
    Early-running 5Z80 caused 130 minutes worth of delay.
    Wrong route on 9B88 caused 578 minutes worth of delay.
     
  20. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Very informative, thanks. Easy to understand that, (in the absence of such detail), people might intuitively deflect the blame onto the kettle though...

    Presumably any train that is misrouted but still caught in time, say a 12 car 450 signalled into a short platform, could cause similar knock-on problems?
     
  21. Dren Ahmeti

    Dren Ahmeti Member

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    It’s the 442’s that are causing headaches with their routing restrictions, but yes, it would be the same effect, if not worse, as a wrong route taken on an overlength train would clog up Waterloo’s mouth and the associated pointwork.
     
  22. Socanxdis

    Socanxdis Member

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    It was a steam train
     
  23. Timrud

    Timrud Member

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    They really should remove steam trains from the mainline. Causing delays like this, or swathes of trespassing morons selfishly full of self entitlement.

    I hope government take note
     
  24. Adsy125

    Adsy125 Member

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    The delay was caused by the signaller, if the train had followed its booked path the delays wouldn’t have occurred.
     
  25. Aictos

    Aictos On Moderation

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    No need to use a sledgehammer, it was clearly pointed out in post 18 that the wrong routed pair of Class 442s caused nearly 5 times the delay that the early running Steam special did but if you want to assume then that’s your choice.

    Just that post was quite clear which caused more delays!
     
  26. Wilts Wanderer

    Wilts Wanderer Established Member

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    Do you have any particular reasons (perhaps on religious grounds?) for objecting to steam propulsion?

    Or do you have issues with charter workings in general, in which case there are a considerable number of diesel and electric hauled services that you'll be wanting to ban as well.

    Who are 'they' by the way?
     
  27. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Errrrrr no. 2C12 was 12 late start from Wokingham because of a tree down between there and Reading so was already running late (though had caught up some time).

    It is, though, sheer lunacy to accept a charter at that time of the day into Waterloo. It may well be using the reversible line, but other services - including 2C12 - regularly use that line.
     
  28. Dren Ahmeti

    Dren Ahmeti Member

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    That's what the TRUST report attributed it to :oops:
     
  29. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Sounds about right comparing the impact on the Windsor Reversible to the Up Fast.

    If something is bid to Network Rail and a path is available, NR are not always in a position to reject the bid for contractual reasons. While such an idea was widely thought of as "lunacy", and I can assure you that is a widespread feeling from what I have heard, the cause remained wrong regulation which, if not happened, would not have resulted in significant disruption.
     
  30. Wilts Wanderer

    Wilts Wanderer Established Member

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    So despite all the desperate attempts to allege / prove otherwise, so far this steam operation has not caused any noticeable incidents.
     
  31. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    That’s as maybe, but the decision to allow this just illustrates one of the problems with NR. Somewhere in the black hole that is Milton Keynes someone has seen an unused path and thought it would be a good idea to allow it to be used. Presumably someone else then approved it. Meanwhile anyone who has used Waterloo in the morning peak - as I have for many years, often on 2C12 - would see that the decision was madness and just asking for a fiasco.

    Had I been on 2C12 (or 2C86 behind it) this morning (fortunately I wasn’t) I would be absolutely furious that some cretin at NR had thought it a good idea to schedule a kettle jolly at the height of the morning peak. The sooner proper, experienced railway operators get a grip on NR the better - which is why it is good to see the likes of Andrew Haines and Tim Shoveller (who both know what it is like on South West Division) now in senior roles there.
     

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