Shortest section of single track

[ElectroSoldier]

If you had a long section of 'single line' that had signals. Could you, stick multiple trains down in the same direction or would you think of that as being a 'reversible/Bi-Di' line ?

I dont know of a line that actually uses it but yes you could have a system that uses a token system to give access, but issue of the token would have to rely on an assurance that the single line is clear either by the driver of the train telling the signaller that the first section in rear of the signal is now clear or by interlocking the signals to the track circuits. A token couldnt be given until the track circuit of the signal section of the first half of the single line is clear.

I seem to recall seeing reference to permissive token instruments. You can certainly get multiple-section TCB-worked single-lines. The signalman can give the slot/release/acceptance, but is prevented from normalising it until the whole single-line is clear.

Ive never seen one, think of it like an absolute block, only 1 is allowed in ragardless of direction.

I am no clearer as to what you are trying to say. Agreed, tokens don't always come in physical form: with RETB there is no physical token, it is (as the name suggests) an electronic token. But with Tokenless Block and TCB single-line block, there is no token at all: physical, electronic or of any other kind. In such cases, the section signal is the sole authority to both enter and occupy the single-line.

A token is an assurance to the driver that the line is safe and will be kept safe until he leaves the line, or assures the issuing signaller that the single line is now clear.
Clearing the section signal in a Tokenless block is that assurance and so clearing the signal is equal to the token.
Track circuit block is, in essence, the same as above. A signal cant be cleared if there is a train in section, so clearing the signal is the assurance that its clear and the authority to proceed. This clearing the section signal is the token.

 

[Tomnick]

I checked through my rulebook and there is no definition of a 'single line' I know in my rules notes from many a moon ago that I have drawings of each but no reference.

The railway drives me mad with definitions. Reversible/Bi-Di/Single line/SIMBID Arghhhhhhh !!!

Good to know that you could send multiple trains onto a single line. I have a few short sections of single line but I kinda remembered one where you can get a train up behind you and wasn't sure if that would be considered a 'reversible' I think it was token, way back in the day, but the line got upgraded to TCB.

I think (as I said at the time, in no uncertain terms!) that it's a serious omission from the Rule Book. My understanding has always been that a bi-directional line is one of two or more adjacent running lines, a single line (whilst bi-directional in a common sense sense!) is all alone. I don't think it's defined in those terms anywhere though. In the context of getting multiple trains moving in the same direction, though, the principle is exactly the same whether it's on a single line or a bi-di line. I'm still trying to think of a better example of a true single line that works like that, with multiple signals in each direction, but I guess that the fact that it's a single line in the first place means that it's probably not busy enough to justify the extra signalling! I'm pretty sure that Berney Arms (busy sea-ward flow of holiday trains in the morning, the opposite in the afternoon) used to be a block post in the middle of a token-worked single line though - I'll have to do some more reading...

I dont know of a line that actually uses it but yes you could have a system that uses a token system to give access, but issue of the token would have to rely on an assurance that the single line is clear either by the driver of the train telling the signaller that the first section in rear of the signal is now clear or by interlocking the signals to the track circuits. A token couldnt be given until the track circuit of the signal section of the first half of the single line is clear.

The basis of any electric token system is that a second token can't be withdrawn until the first is restored (once the first train is completely clear of the single line) so you couldn't use that. A variation on staff and ticket or divisible staff might do it, but it's not really the done thing any more on the big railway.[/quote]

Track circuit block is, in essence, the same as above. A signal cant be cleared if there is a train in section, so clearing the signal is the assurance that its clear and the authority to proceed. This clearing the section signal is the token.

No different to conventional track circuit block on a double line, or indeed absolute block, and we certainly don't consider that equivalent to issuing a token. There is no token, physical or otherwise, with these methods of signalling.

 

[Belperpete]

A signal cant be cleared if there is a train in section, so clearing the signal is the assurance that its clear and the authority to proceed. This clearing the section signal is the token.

You obviously have a very different concept of what a token is. The concept of a token is that it is something that the signaller passes to the driver, and until the driver gives it back, the signaller(s) cannot signal another train onto the line. In most cases, the token is physical (key-token, staff, tablet, ball, etc.), but it can also be an electronic code (RETB).

 

[Belperpete]

I'm pretty sure that Berney Arms (busy sea-ward flow of holiday trains in the morning, the opposite in the afternoon) used to be a block post in the middle of a token-worked single line though - I'll have to do some more reading...

I have dug out my copy of "Single Line Operation" by David Stirling, and indeed Reedham Jcn - Berney Arms - Breydon Jcn was worked using a combination of permissive tablet instruments and block instruments. The permissive tablet instruments allowed two tablets to be withdrawn to allow two trains in section in the same direction between Reedham and Breydon, with the block instruments ensuring the second train didn't leave before the first had passed Berney Arms.

The concept of permissive token instruments blew my mind a bit the first time I heard about them, but David's book includes a number of examples of their use.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Does the line down to Lymmington pier have signals on it?
I dont think it does because its one train working without train staff but...

Another single line that is a single road without a parallel track next to it (a single line can have another track next to it, and some do, as it is its operation that makes it a single line not the layout of the roads around it) but does have signals along it is the line from mouldsworth to Mickle trafford on the Northwich - Chester line.
(travelling towards Chester) The section signal is at the end of the Mouldsworth station on the Down platform, on the right side of the line is the Up Main towards Helsby, inspite of the fact that there are two lines side by side they both count as single lines (but at different points). That is because once you pass the section signal you are in the single line and single line working rules apply (more correctly called "The working of a single line") and dont stop applying until you exit the single line at Mickle trafford signal box, there is of course a junction signal before you get to the signal box as at that point the line becomes the Helsby - Chester line. But you do not exit the single line until you pass the box and the signaller bells OoS and puts the block instrument to line clear. (technically until that train is in advance of the next signal the line still counts as a single line as the train is occupying the track so nothing from Mouldsworth or Helsby can use it)
In the Up direction it is the same situation. When a route is set and cleared towards Helsby then the line is normal. Once the signaller calls Mouldsworth for a train to enter the section and then sets the points and clears the section signal (which can only be cleared when Mouldsworth has set the instrument to accept that train) then the line from that signal to Mouldsworth counts as a single line, even though there is about 440 yards from the signal to the points onto the "single line" and at the other end when at Mouldsworth it doesnt exit the single line until the axle counters have counted it out of section, the axle counter is just beyond the platform, so when the train stops there at Mouldsworth its still in a single line and the signal cant be cleared in the Down direction towards Chester for a train waiting at the Down platform even though the driver can see the single line is now unoccupied, the next signal is a couple hundred yards beyond it. So Mouldsworth Down platform is a normal line and the Up Platform is a single line!


Single line working video. Its a bit old, but then so am I so it works for me

On a normal line you dont consider it as issuing a token as there is no chance of taking another train in the face. If there was...... (nb interlocking failures aside).

 

[Belperpete]

I think (as I said at the time, in no uncertain terms!) that it's a serious omission from the Rule Book. My understanding has always been that a bi-directional line is one of two or more adjacent running lines, a single line (whilst bi-directional in a common sense sense!) is all alone. I don't think it's defined in those terms anywhere though.

I think you are confusing track and line. "Track" refers to the physical attributes of the railway, so you have single-track, double-track, etc. which refers to the number of pairs of rails. The term "line" is generally associated with a method of working, e.g. "up line" refers to a track normally used for up trains, a "reversible line" is one that does not have a normal direction of working. "Single line", "Bi-Directional line" and "double line" likewise refer to different methods of working: with double-line working, one line is generally used for up trains and the other line for down trains.

My understanding of the difference between a single-line and a bi-directional line is that a single-line is usually between different signalboxes, whereas bi-directional is usually within the same signalbox. Generally, single-lines have a "section signal" governing access to the single-line section, clearing of which requires some action from the signalbox ahead (e.g. releasing a token, or giving a slot), whereas the signal governing access to a bi-directional line is not generally called a section signal and its clearing does not usually require any action from another signaller. Another big difference is that if the signalling fails on a single-line, then special working (e.g. with a pilotman) is usually necessary, whereas with bi-directional it is not.

Note the liberal application of "generally" and "usually", as I am aware that there are probably exceptions to all these, e.g. where a long bi-directional line crosses control-centre boundaries it is still called bi-directional. Any line worked using token-type instruments is referred to as a single-line, even where both ends of the section are supervised by the same box. Likewise where double-track is worked using separate token systems for each line (as per my Waddon-Beddington example), they are referred to as parallel single-lines, not a double-line (which would imply a totally different method of working).

 

[ElectroSoldier]

I think you are confusing track and line. "Track" refers to the physical attributes of the railway, so you have single-track, double-track, etc. which refers to the number of pairs of rails. The term "line" is generally associated with a method of working, e.g. "up line" refers to a track normally used for up trains, a "reversible line" is one that does not have a normal direction of working. "Single line", "Bi-Directional line" and "double line" likewise refer to different methods of working: with double-line working, one line is generally used for up trains and the other line for down trains.

The words Up, Down, Up & Down, Down & Up all mean that that is the direction of travel in an authorised signaled move. Up & Down and Down & Up refer to where the line starts and the normal direction of travel first.
Reversible and bi directional is not the same thing either.
A bi directional line is a line that is signaled in both directions of course but they are both fully controlled and fully signaled routes from peg to peg to peg.
Liverpool Central station is a rather good prototype to explain so grab your LNW Sectional Appendix. NW8001 004 Hunts Cross West Jn to Southport.
You will see the Up Southport (USP). it is bi directional from the Reversing Siding (RS) all the way out to Bootle Jn. (Notice how it is not called the Up & Down Southport)
The line has a also reversible but.
On the diagram, unfortunately it doesnt show pegs, but if it did you would see that on the Up Southport line just in advance of the switch for the reversing siding there is a position light signal to control a move from it back into either of the platforms (route indicator provided). The train drives onto the track and comes to a stand in rear on the signal (ML1017), it can then be given a reversing signal back into the platform.
At that point the track is not bi-directional, but it is reversible as there is a signal provided to perform a reversing movement that would otherwise be a bang road movement and thus not possible.

The at Liverpool South Parkway there is on the Up Fast 9809 signal.
The line is not bi directional, a train arrives in a move from 3860 - 3858. The next move is from 3858 to 3854 on the Up Fast in a forward direction but (There are two other moves in a forward direction possible too but I obfuscate them for ease of explanation) it is possible to reverse on that line too in a signaled move from 9809 to one of three possible signals, the most obvious of which is 3861 on the Down Fast.
That means that that line is reversible at that point.
Over on platform 3 the situation is the same, the line is reversible, one arrives in an Up direction but can reverse on 9807 signal to 5833 signal.
While on the Down Fast on platform 4 the line is bi directional. One stops in rear of 5831 signal and can leave the platform in the forward direction (opposite direction to that in which you arrived, but its still forward) and go over the right hand facing switch to Garston Junction and receptions sidings for the Freightliner terminal at Garston.

All single lines are bi directional, but not all bi directional lines are single lines and use "The working of a single line" rules. And then some lines have a single direction of travel but allow for reversals.
A bi Directional lines signals are all interlocked into each other, a signaled move in one direction would interlock with a conflicting move in the opposite direction to prevent a head on collision. But there is no cost cutting involved in its operation. A single line with electric token block allows a single line to be used in either direction with minimum staff levels... A good case in point is Buxton's line up to Hindlow. There is a box one end but its no signalman the other, as Buxton's operations require a signaler where as Hindlows yard doesnt.

A single line requires a method of controlling access to the single line that is interlocked to the method of controlling access at the other end of the single line but those methods of control do not have to be a signal box. It can simply be a Tyer's electric token machine in a shed. The release of a token requires somebody to give an assurance that the line is not in use and will not be used while the train is travelling along it and to assure this the tokens release is interlocked.
At Buxton there are two ways to access the single line to Hindlow, from the signal on the Up Main (Gives access to either the single line, the station or what used to be the diesel depot) or from the signal in the sidings which can also be accessed in two ways, either from the Up & Down Great Rocks or from the station/depot...
If the signaler wants to route you to Hindlow and once a token is withdrawn for the line, the points set and locked and signals pulled off the line, the physical stretch of track that lays between the signal post and the points that are the start of the track that is by itself without a neighboring road on either side of it becomes a single line and the "The working of a single line" rules apply to it. That is in-spite the fact that is is the Up Main.

 

[Llama]

Intetesting thread.

As a slight aside, can anyone perhaps explain why the single line from Rainford Jn SB down towards Kirkby was changed in the sectional appendix from being 'OT(S)' IIRC to 'NST' as it is now? An electric token is released from Rainford Jn SB to trains going to Kirkby and back, and the same token can be released for freight trains going to Knowsley - there's a ground frame at Dale Lane with a shut-in facility where the token can be locked in an instrument there - I understand that Dale Lane operation is NST but is the terminology of this single line just shown as an anomaly in the SA because effectively it has two methods of working, either of which are right depending what the train is doing (eg Rainford-Kirkby-Rainford vs Rainford-Dale Lane-shut in)?

 

[ElectroSoldier]

It depends on the movement that you want to happen as to its operation.
As I have tried to explain a Single line that uses the set of rules called The working of a single line doesnt have to actually be a single road.

I saw a video a few weeks ago that showed it quite well when you know how it really works. Ill have a look and link it here but I think it was Don coffee on a trip from ManPic to Chester over the mid cheshire clc route not via Earlestown

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Ok this is the video. As he says in the captions there are three single line sections on this service.

In the direction in which the train is travelling, not coming the other way as the start and stop positions will be different and not parallel to each other on the track.
The first starts at
15:28 with the signal. Yes there are two lines side by side but that is where the single line we are travelling on starts.
The physical single line starts at 24:20
I know there are two roads there but this is where The working of a single line rules come into effect and it is that signal DJ13 that is the section signal for the single line.
24:59 the two roads become one
25:03 Deansgate Junction signal box controls this end of the single line.
As mentioned the road to the right is part of the Manchester Metro, two roads side by side and both are single lines.
25:50 junction signal at Navigation Road station (unusual position as it makes all the platform ahead of it unusable when the signal is ON, but a long train can use all the platform! and stop half way into the junction.
Track Circuit Block is used to detect entry and exit. Notice how the entire single line is controlled by one signal box and the release of the section signal is interlocked to the Track Circuits.

54:08 Greenbank box, the next box is Mickle trafford.
1:01:43 the axle counter used on the Up Main to count a train out of the single line...
One can also see the rather beautiful Mouldsworth station too of course
1:08:13 That is the section signal that controls access to the single line, once a token issued (I know its Tokenless block but clearing the signal is equal to giving a token) and that signal is cleared OFF then the line in advance of it is a single line.
While if you look at the road to the right, that is also a single line and any train on it at their point would be operating under The working of a single line rules.
1:13:11 Mickle Trafford box.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Intetesting thread.

As a slight aside, can anyone perhaps explain why the single line from Rainford Jn SB down towards Kirkby was changed in the sectional appendix from being 'OT(S)' IIRC to 'NST' as it is now? An electric token is released from Rainford Jn SB to trains going to Kirkby and back, and the same token can be released for freight trains going to Knowsley - there's a ground frame at Dale Lane with a shut-in facility where the token can be locked in an instrument there - I understand that Dale Lane operation is NST but is the terminology of this single line just shown as an anomaly in the SA because effectively it has two methods of working, either of which are right depending what the train is doing (eg Rainford-Kirkby-Rainford vs Rainford-Dale Lane-shut in)?

Because when they opened Knowsley freight terminal they required a more flexible system of operation than One Train Working with Train Staff (OT(S)). When that system was in operation only one train was ever allowed to enter the branch and that train was in possession of a train staff and gave it up when it left.

With the opening of the siding then a system where multiple trains could use the single line but at different times. OT(S) is very inflexible but very safe.
Now it uses a No signalman Token System (NTS), so Rainford can issue a token to a passenger train to access the line to Kirkby, once there at Kirkby the train can not leave until cleared as the signal box can issue a token to a freight train that follows it down the branch line, it reverses into the sidings and locks itself in using the token it was given at Rainford box, the signalman cant clear a move from Kirkby until the freight train has locked itself into the sidings.
To get out of the sidings the trainman will request a token, if Rainford doesnt already have one on then he will release a token that is used to unlock the points and give access to the single line and then move along the line to Rainford box where the token will be given back, placed into the electric token instrument and at that point the line can then be used by the passenger train to get into or out of the single line.

 

[Tomnick]

My head hurts!

Does the line down to Lymmington pier have signals on it?
I dont think it does because its one train working without train staff but...

Another single line that is a single road without a parallel track next to it (a single line can have another track next to it, and some do, as it is its operation that makes it a single line not the layout of the roads around it) but does have signals along it is the line from mouldsworth to Mickle trafford on the Northwich - Chester line.
(travelling towards Chester) The section signal is at the end of the Mouldsworth station on the Down platform, on the right side of the line is the Up Main towards Helsby, inspite of the fact that there are two lines side by side they both count as single lines (but at different points). That is because once you pass the section signal you are in the single line and single line working rules apply (more correctly called "The working of a single line") and dont stop applying until you exit the single line at Mickle trafford signal box, there is of course a junction signal before you get to the signal box as at that point the line becomes the Helsby - Chester line. But you do not exit the single line until you pass the box and the signaller bells OoS and puts the block instrument to line clear. (technically until that train is in advance of the next signal the line still counts as a single line as the train is occupying the track so nothing from Mouldsworth or Helsby can use it)

Well, not really - the single line is physically defined by the points at either end unless other marker boards are provided, although clearly the regs apply to some extent to trains between the section signal and the single line itself, as you say. Once the train is physically clear of the single line, there's generally nothing preventing another train being signalled onto the single line from either end - you certainly don't need to wait for the first train to pass the next signal beyond the junction.

In the Up direction it is the same situation. When a route is set and cleared towards Helsby then the line is normal. Once the signaller calls Mouldsworth for a train to enter the section and then sets the points and clears the section signal (which can only be cleared when Mouldsworth has set the instrument to accept that train) then the line from that signal to Mouldsworth counts as a single line, even though there is about 440 yards from the signal to the points onto the "single line" and at the other end when at Mouldsworth it doesnt exit the single line until the axle counters have counted it out of section, the axle counter is just beyond the platform, so when the train stops there at Mouldsworth its still in a single line and the signal cant be cleared in the Down direction towards Chester for a train waiting at the Down platform even though the driver can see the single line is now unoccupied, the next signal is a couple hundred yards beyond it. So Mouldsworth Down platform is a normal line and the Up Platform is a single line!

The Up platform is most definitely not a single line, by any definition. A train sitting in the Up platform is clear of the single line and there should be nothing preventing a Down train being signalled onto the single line. It's not as simple as a single axle counter section covering the whole lot - the single line itself consists of four axle counter sections, then there's one through the pointwork at Mouldsworth before you reach the platform. It's all controlled by Mickle Trafford too now, Mouldsworth having been abolished some years ago.

The words Up, Down, Up & Down, Down & Up all mean that that is the direction of travel in an authorised signaled move. Up & Down and Down & Up refer to where the line starts and the normal direction of travel first.

I was always taught that you refer to a single line as the "Up & Down [whatever] line" and a pair of lines as the "Down and Up [whatever] lines" to avoid confusion. I have never come across a single or bi-directional line referred to as the "Down & Up [whatever]".

Reversible and bi directional is not the same thing either.
A bi directional line is a line that is signaled in both directions of course but they are both fully controlled and fully signaled routes from peg to peg to peg.
Liverpool Central station is a rather good prototype to explain so grab your LNW Sectional Appendix. NW8001 004 Hunts Cross West Jn to Southport.
You will see the Up Southport (USP). it is bi directional from the Reversing Siding (RS) all the way out to Bootle Jn. (Notice how it is not called the Up & Down Southport)
The line has a also reversible but.
On the diagram, unfortunately it doesnt show pegs, but if it did you would see that on the Up Southport line just in advance of the switch for the reversing siding there is a position light signal to control a move from it back into either of the platforms (route indicator provided). The train drives onto the track and comes to a stand in rear on the signal (ML1017), it can then be given a reversing signal back into the platform.
At that point the track is not bi-directional, but it is reversible as there is a signal provided to perform a reversing movement that would otherwise be a bang road movement and thus not possible.

The at Liverpool South Parkway there is on the Up Fast 9809 signal.
The line is not bi directional, a train arrives in a move from 3860 - 3858. The next move is from 3858 to 3854 on the Up Fast in a forward direction but (There are two other moves in a forward direction possible too but I obfuscate them for ease of explanation) it is possible to reverse on that line too in a signaled move from 9809 to one of three possible signals, the most obvious of which is 3861 on the Down Fast.
That means that that line is reversible at that point.
Over on platform 3 the situation is the same, the line is reversible, one arrives in an Up direction but can reverse on 9807 signal to 5833 signal.
While on the Down Fast on platform 4 the line is bi directional. One stops in rear of 5831 signal and can leave the platform in the forward direction (opposite direction to that in which you arrived, but its still forward) and go over the right hand facing switch to Garston Junction and receptions sidings for the Freightliner terminal at Garston.

A reversible line is a bi-directional line as far as the Rule Book is concerned. In practice, the distinction that I've always been taught is that a reversible line (not a formal term any more?) is one that is primarily used in one direction but is signalled in the opposite direction to permit a greatly reduced service, perhaps during disruption or engineering work. The example between Liverpool Central and Bootle Jn. is a good one in this context.

Liverpool South Parkway. There is a signalled main aspect move into the Up Fast platform from Allerton depot (Arrival Line) so it's arguably fully bi-directional, but I don't know how the Sectional Appendix shows it. That aside, though, the presence of a turnback move on an otherwise conventionally signalled, uni-directional line does not make it bi-directional or reversible. Platform 3 is neither bi-directional nor reversible. Incidentally, there are only two routes from 9809 signal, to the Down Fast or to the Down Slow.

1:08:13 That is the section signal that controls access to the single line, once a token issued (I know its Tokenless block but clearing the signal is equal to giving a token) and that signal is cleared OFF then the line in advance of it is a single line.

The clue's in the name - there is no token, nor is any part of the process of clearing the signal equivalent to issuing a token.

While if you look at the road to the right, that is also a single line and any train on it at their point would be operating under The working of a single line rules.

As above - just no!

Because when they opened Knowsley freight terminal they required a more flexible system of operation than One Train Working with Train Staff (OT(S)). When that system was in operation only one train was ever allowed to enter the branch and that train was in possession of a train staff and gave it up when it left.

With the opening of the siding then a system where multiple trains could use the single line but at different times. OT(S) is very inflexible but very safe.
Now it uses a No signalman Token System (NTS), so Rainford can issue a token to a passenger train to access the line to Kirkby, once there at Kirkby the train can not leave until cleared as the signal box can issue a token to a freight train that follows it down the branch line, it reverses into the sidings and locks itself in using the token it was given at Rainford box, the signalman cant clear a move from Kirkby until the freight train has locked itself into the sidings.
To get out of the sidings the trainman will request a token, if Rainford doesnt already have one on then he will release a token that is used to unlock the points and give access to the single line and then move along the line to Rainford box where the token will be given back, placed into the electric token instrument and at that point the line can then be used by the passenger train to get into or out of the single line.

Largely correct (hooray!), but for the fact that - to the best of my knowledge - a train cannot be shut inside at Kirkby station. To do so would require a token instrument there (you can't get a second token out until the first is put back in somewhere), and some way of protecting a train 'shut inside' there from a second train legitimately occupying the single line (Whitby has this arrangement, with an "end of single line" board a short distance back from the buffer stops and a local instruction to drivers to be prepared to find the platform occupied, IIRC). Once a token is withdrawn and issued to a train going onto the branch, that's your lot until the train either shuts inside at the freight terminal (and restores the token to the instrument there) or comes back off the single line (and the token is restored to the instrument in the box).

 

[Llama]

Yes that's absolutely not how the single line at Rainford / Kirkby works, a freight train can only proceed with correct authority from Rainford towards Knowsley if there is no train already on the single line. There are no signals or other signalling equipment such as token instruments etc at Kirkby, it's effectively worked as if the token is a train staff. For freight trains yes it is different - there's the shut-in facility at Dale Lane GF so that fits the criteria of NST, but the method of working of the single line for both types of train hasn't changed for donkeys years whereas the designation of the type of single line in the sectional appendix (from OT(S) to NST) did change recently, two or three years ago.

 

[Tomnick]

Yes that's absolutely not how the single line at Rainford / Kirkby works, a freight train can only proceed with correct authority from Rainford towards Knowsley if there is no train already on the single line. There are no signals or other signalling equipment such as token instruments etc at Kirkby, it's effectively worked as if the token is a train staff. For freight trains yes it is different - there's the shut-in facility at Dale Lane GF so that fits the criteria of NST, but the method of working of the single line for both types of train hasn't changed for donkeys years whereas the designation of the type of single line in the sectional appendix (from OT(S) to NST) did change recently, two or three years ago.

The crucial different being that, with just a single staff under OTW, freight trains would have had to either get in, out and back past Rainford before the next passenger, or (possibly) shut inside and transfer the staff back to Rainford by road. The facility to restore one token at the ground frame to allow another to be released for the next passenger at Rainford would’ve made the freight operation a lot more flexible.

 

[driver_m]

I can’t be doing with going into the finery of the points made on here. But for a very small section of single line that leads to various points at either end. I give you Speke Junction in South Liverpool. Up & Down Garston Goods. Signals at both ends. Was fringe AB/phone worked till 2003, now TCB throughout. One end had 4 routes, the other with 3 (one of which was a Ground Frame). 16 chains long.

if you want a genuine single section involving pilot man working. The shortest one I work over is Britannia Bridge going onto Anglesey which you may argue is not that short.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

My head hurts!

Well, not really - the single line is physically defined by the points at either end unless other marker boards are provided, although clearly the regs apply to some extent to trains between the section signal and the single line itself, as you say. Once the train is physically clear of the single line, there's generally nothing preventing another train being signalled onto the single line from either end - you certainly don't need to wait for the first train to pass the next signal beyond the junction.

The points... the signal post that protects them.

The Up platform is most definitely not a single line, by any definition. A train sitting in the Up platform is clear of the single line and there should be nothing preventing a Down train being signalled onto the single line. It's not as simple as a single axle counter section covering the whole lot - the single line itself consists of four axle counter sections, then there's one through the pointwork at Mouldsworth before you reach the platform. It's all controlled by Mickle Trafford too now, Mouldsworth having been abolished some years ago.

Then its changed, there was an greasing pot the other side of the platform with the axle counter after.

I was always taught that you refer to a single line as the "Up & Down [whatever] line" and a pair of lines as the "Down and Up [whatever] lines" to avoid confusion. I have never come across a single or bi-directional line referred to as the "Down & Up [whatever]".

Then you havent been paying attention.
A move from the Down Bootle over Bootle Junction can either put you on to the "Down LNW Goods" or more importantly on to the "Down and Up Goods" towards Aintree over the North Mersey Branch.
Then at Earlestown there is a move from the "Up Chat Moss" to the "Up & Down Earlestown West" onto the "Down and Up Liverpool Curve".
Which are just two examples. While further afield in Buxton the Hindlow line upto Briggs is called the "Down and Up Hindlow". Which is right next to the "Up & Down Great Rocks"
Or you could go with the "Up & Down Main" at Navigation Road. So youre not as far ahead as you seem to think you are.

A reversible line is a bi-directional line as far as the Rule Book is concerned. In practice, the distinction that I've always been taught is that a reversible line (not a formal term any more?) is one that is primarily used in one direction but is signalled in the opposite direction to permit a greatly reduced service, perhaps during disruption or engineering work. The example between Liverpool Central and Bootle Jn. is a good one in this context.

Im sure you would be right, right up until you get to the part I did mention at Liverpool Central that allows a reversing move from the Up Southport back towards the station. Because the Up Southport line is Bi directional from the Reversing Sidings to Bootle Junction, which means the switch that puts you into the siding is as far as that line goes with regards to being bi directional, anything beyond that is a reversing move. Which is what you are allowed to do.

The same goes for Liverpool South Parkway. Platform 3. I know trains can leave in both directions from that platform because Ive seen it.
Platform 1 yes youre right it is... I used to quite often see light locos (mostly 40s and then 47s) come off the depot onto the Up Fast then over the trailing switch onto the Down Fast and off to Edge hill. But that was when they Circle line was there...

Liverpool South Parkway. There is a signalled main aspect move into the Up Fast platform from Allerton depot (Arrival Line) so it's arguably fully bi-directional, but I don't know how the Sectional Appendix shows it. That aside, though, the presence of a turnback move on an otherwise conventionally signalled, uni-directional line does not make it bi-directional or reversible. Platform 3 is neither bi-directional nor reversible. Incidentally, there are only two routes from 9809 signal, to the Down Fast or to the Down Slow.

Shows it as an Up only. But I know, like you that its both...
Im not sure about that, maybe because its from the TMD its a shunt move possibly?

The clue's in the name - there is no token, nor is any part of the process of clearing the signal equivalent to issuing a token.

As above - just no!

No I know, I think you are missing my point.
Clearing the signal is equal to issuing a token.

Largely correct (hooray!), but for the fact that - to the best of my knowledge - a train cannot be shut inside at Kirkby station. To do so would require a token instrument there (you can't get a second token out until the first is put back in somewhere), and some way of protecting a train 'shut inside' there from a second train legitimately occupying the single line (Whitby has this arrangement, with an "end of single line" board a short distance back from the buffer stops and a local instruction to drivers to be prepared to find the platform occupied, IIRC). Once a token is withdrawn and issued to a train going onto the branch, that's your lot until the train either shuts inside at the freight terminal (and restores the token to the instrument there) or comes back off the single line (and the token is restored to the instrument in the box).

Im not 100% sure on the local arrangements down there, I always knew it as One Train Working With Train Staff once they did the whole Merseyrail thing and made Kirkby a terminus. Before that was different of course, but now there are two possible methods of operation with an electric token block. Im not sure why they went with the less flexible of the two though.
Maybe somebody knows how and why...

 

[ElectroSoldier]

I can’t be doing with going into the finery of the points made on here. But for a very small section of single line that leads to various points at either end. I give you Speke Junction in South Liverpool. Up & Down Garston Goods. Signals at both ends. Was fringe AB/phone worked till 2003, now TCB throughout. One end had 4 routes, the other with 3 (one of which was a Ground Frame). 16 chains long.

if you want a genuine single section involving pilot man working. The shortest one I work over is Britannia Bridge going onto Anglesey which you may argue is not that short.

Sounds to me like you know the area well then, you wouldnt remember that if you hadnt worked it

Were you there when they ripped it all up in the 80s?

 

[driver_m]

Sounds to me like you know the area well then, you wouldnt remember that if you hadnt worked it

Were you there when they ripped it all up in the 80s?

I know of the old layout where it had the extra tracks to the south of the current layout, but didn’t work over it, no!

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Sorry I meant Speke sidings and engine shed... The engine shed was north of the reception sidings that are there now. Accessed off the single line chord Garston Jn to Allerton East Jn.
The sidings used to go all the way over the the back of the houses.

When did you work there? Or you "just" know it?

 

[Tomnick]

Then its changed, there was an greasing pot the other side of the platform with the axle counter after.

It has never been anything as simple as a single axle counter section covering the single line proper and right through to the next signal beyond. It'd be totally unworkable. The same goes for any other single line - only today, I was held at the signal protecting a single line, which cleared before the train coming off the single line had even passed me, let alone reached the next signal.

Then you havent been paying attention.
A move from the Down Bootle over Bootle Junction can either put you on to the "Down LNW Goods" or more importantly on to the "Down and Up Goods" towards Aintree over the North Mersey Branch.
Then at Earlestown there is a move from the "Up Chat Moss" to the "Up & Down Earlestown West" onto the "Down and Up Liverpool Curve".
Which are just two examples. While further afield in Buxton the Hindlow line upto Briggs is called the "Down and Up Hindlow". Which is right next to the "Up & Down Great Rocks"
Or you could go with the "Up & Down Main" at Navigation Road. So youre not as far ahead as you seem to think you are.

I concede that the west curve at Earlestown is indeed known as the Down and Up Liverpool Curve. Why is it so? It's nothing to do with the 'normal' direction of travel - it's a single line, trains work over it normally in both directions. Just what I was taught - clearly there are regional differences...

Im sure you would be right, right up until you get to the part I did mention at Liverpool Central that allows a reversing move from the Up Southport back towards the station. Because the Up Southport line is Bi directional from the Reversing Sidings to Bootle Junction, which means the switch that puts you into the siding is as far as that line goes with regards to being bi directional, anything beyond that is a reversing move. Which is what you are allowed to do.

The same goes for Liverpool South Parkway. Platform 3. I know trains can leave in both directions from that platform because Ive seen it.
Platform 1 yes youre right it is... I used to quite often see light locos (mostly 40s and then 47s) come off the depot onto the Up Fast then over the trailing switch onto the Down Fast and off to Edge hill. But that was when they Circle line was there...

I think it's your definition of "reversible" that's in doubt. You seem to be suggesting that the presence of a turnback or reversing move alone makes a line reversible, which isn't like any definition that I've ever heard. You can indeed leave platform 3 at Liverpool South Parkway in the Down direction, but the line isn't signalled for movements right through in each direction. Platform 4 is, and is shown as bi-di in the Sectional Appendix

Shows it as an Up only. But I know, like you that its both...
Im not sure about that, maybe because its from the TMD its a shunt move possibly?

I suspect it's because the moves off Allerton arrival line were previously only shunt moves - it's only with the recent resignalling that they've become main routes. A pedantic distinction, perhaps!

Im not 100% sure on the local arrangements down there, I always knew it as One Train Working With Train Staff once they did the whole Merseyrail thing and made Kirkby a terminus. Before that was different of course, but now there are two possible methods of operation with an electric token block. Im not sure why they went with the less flexible of the two though.
Maybe somebody knows how and why...

Presumably because there's little justification to shut a unit inside at the platform. They don't stay there long enough for a freight train to follow them on and shunt clear.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

I assume by what you have said you are or where a signaler? And on that basis you above all should know that a move is made from the rear of one signal to the rear of another?

It has never been anything as simple as a single axle counter section covering the single line proper and right through to the next signal beyond. It'd be totally unworkable. The same goes for any other single line - only today, I was held at the signal protecting a single line, which cleared before the train coming off the single line had even passed me, let alone reached the next signal.

I never said there was a single axle counter on that line. There were 3 sets of them along there when I walked it as a track inspector. I also worked that line when I was in S&T.
I used to know its every creek and moan. But that was a long time ago now back when I worked at Chester.

I concede that the west curve at Earlestown is indeed known as the Down and Up Liverpool Curve. Why is it so? It's nothing to do with the 'normal' direction of travel - it's a single line, trains work over it normally in both directions. Just what I was taught - clearly there are regional differences...

It is not by any means the only line that is named so. I cant believe you havent come across it before! They are all over the north west and probably further afield too.

The Down & Up Goods was named that because it wasnt always a single line, it was double, when we removed the double track arrangement they left one track, that track was named the Down Goods, when it went single it was renamed the Down & Up Goods.
The Down & Up Liverpool Curve was given its name for similar reasons, however at Earlestown we changed some other things too when we did it (I worked Edge hill depot too, in fact I worked there first, then Warrington, moved to Chester did a stint at Crewe then moved on, worked Buxton too for a while and Peak dale...).
Halton Curve was changed much to the point it was completely renamed, I remember that flat Junction switch was quite a headache in the down direction, which is why it was removed together with the rest of the track to the next junction and it became a single lead to get rid of the constant unfoixable problem.
The Down and Up Hindlow was double, what is left is the line that was in the Down direction, now its both and so as is common practice it kept its name and too on the Up duties...
That is why you would get Up, Down, Down & Up and Up & Down lines.
Or that is true of those lines in particular, I know that for sure because I was there when it was done.

I think it's your definition of "reversible" that's in doubt. You seem to be suggesting that the presence of a turnback or reversing move alone makes a line reversible, which isn't like any definition that I've ever heard. You can indeed leave platform 3 at Liverpool South Parkway in the Down direction, but the line isn't signalled for movements right through in each direction. Platform 4 is, and is shown as bi-di in the Sectional Appendix

I see

So we have established that at Liverpool South Parkway platform 4, the Down Slow, the line is bi directional. Only as far as Garston Jn but never the less it is bi Directional. While the Up Slow at platform 3 is not bi directional...
And yet a reversing move can and indeed is done from that platform from the signal at the west end of the platform over the right hand trailing switch for a move back to Wavertree Jn.

That is the difference. Surely you can see that.
There are many examples of this, a line which is, at that point, between those signals, reversible but not bi directional.

I suspect it's because the moves off Allerton arrival line were previously only shunt moves - it's only with the recent resignalling that they've become main routes. A pedantic distinction, perhaps!

Indeed...
Ive yet to see a move past that signal, however I guess it is there for flexibility as much as need these days.

Presumably because there's little justification to shut a unit inside at the platform. They don't stay there long enough for a freight train to follow them on and shunt clear.

I wouldnt know, like I said I dont know the actual arrangements down there, I dont think Ive used it since it went single, I only used to walk up to Kirkby on the Merseyrail side... Maybe once from Wallgate... But the use now Ive no idea.

 

[Tomnick]

I assume by what you have said you are or where a signaler? And on that basis you above all should know that a move is made from the rear of one signal to the rear of another?

Well, a move is made from one signal to another. Once a movement has physically cleared a single line or any other connection, though, you can quite happily signal another train that way behind it, even if it hasn't reached the next signal.

(yes, I used to be, now on the dark side)

I never said there was a single axle counter on that line. There were 3 sets of them along there when I walked it as a track inspector. I also worked that line when I was in S&T.
I used to know its every creek and moan. But that was a long time ago now back when I worked at Chester.

It must have been after Mouldsworth was abolished? There doesn't appear to have been any form of continuous train detection on the single line before then - it wouldn't be needed with Tokenless Block with a Signalman at each end to check for tail lamps. Once it was all put onto Mickle Trafford, there was a single long axle counter section between the stop signals at each end, then a couple of shorter ones at each end to prove the line clear to the overlap and protect the pointwork. I'll perhaps draw a diagram later...

It is not by any means the only line that is named so. I cant believe you havent come across it before! They are all over the north west and probably further afield too.

The Down & Up Goods was named that because it wasnt always a single line, it was double, when we removed the double track arrangement they left one track, that track was named the Down Goods, when it went single it was renamed the Down & Up Goods.
The Down & Up Liverpool Curve was given its name for similar reasons, however at Earlestown we changed some other things too when we did it (I worked Edge hill depot too, in fact I worked there first, then Warrington, moved to Chester did a stint at Crewe then moved on, worked Buxton too for a while and Peak dale...).
Halton Curve was changed much to the point it was completely renamed, I remember that flat Junction switch was quite a headache in the down direction, which is why it was removed together with the rest of the track to the next junction and it became a single lead to get rid of the constant unfoixable problem.
The Down and Up Hindlow was double, what is left is the line that was in the Down direction, now its both and so as is common practice it kept its name and too on the Up duties...
That is why you would get Up, Down, Down & Up and Up & Down lines.
Or that is true of those lines in particular, I know that for sure because I was there when it was done.

I've never given it much thought to be honest - I don't think there are any on the routes that I sign in the north-west (Up & Dn Earlestown West is on my route card, but there be dragons around the Liverpool curve!). It's an interesting thought though, and makes a lot of sense. Obviously whether it's called Up & Down or Down & Up has no bearing on how it's worked nowadays!

I see

So we have established that at Liverpool South Parkway platform 4, the Down Slow, the line is bi directional. Only as far as Garston Jn but never the less it is bi Directional. While the Up Slow at platform 3 is not bi directional...
And yet a reversing move can and indeed is done from that platform from the signal at the west end of the platform over the right hand trailing switch for a move back to Wavertree Jn.

That is the difference. Surely you can see that.
There are many examples of this, a line which is, at that point, between those signals, reversible but not bi directional.

Yes. I wouldn't call it reversible though. I'd only consider it bi-directional or reversible if it's signalled for movements in both directions through at least the length of a signal section, usually with special controls in the interlocking, e.g. a 'direction of flow' indicator on the panel. I certainly wouldn't call the short length between turnouts in a ladder junction reversible, for example.

Bi-directional is the formal term for a line over which trains can be signalled in either direction, reversible (a less formal term) is bi-directional but normally worked in only one direction.

Indeed...
Ive yet to see a move past that signal, however I guess it is there for flexibility as much as need these days.

Likewise. I don't really know the layout inside Allerton depot but I'd guess that it might be useful for a unit coming straight off the wheel lathe to go somewhere else, or maybe a unit just going inside to clear the main line briefly - anything else would be on the departure side anyway.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Well, a move is made from one signal to another. Once a movement has physically cleared a single line or any other connection, though, you can quite happily signal another train that way behind it, even if it hasn't reached the next signal.

(yes, I used to be, now on the dark side)

Indeed, as I did. When I worked Buxton, all those 37s made me want to see it from the other side.
I would hazard a guess as you being TPE or Arriva or maybe a freight as you dont know Allerton but do know Earlestown.

It must have been after Mouldsworth was abolished? There doesn't appear to have been any form of continuous train detection on the single line before then - it wouldn't be needed with Tokenless Block with a Signalman at each end to check for tail lamps. Once it was all put onto Mickle Trafford, there was a single long axle counter section between the stop signals at each end, then a couple of shorter ones at each end to prove the line clear to the overlap and protect the pointwork. I'll perhaps draw a diagram later...

They axle counters were there. Count you in then count you out.
As far as I know they are still there...

It is not by any means the only line that is named so. I cant believe you havent come across it before! They are all over the north west and probably further afield too.


I've never given it much thought to be honest - I don't think there are any on the routes that I sign in the north-west (Up & Dn Earlestown West is on my route card, but there be dragons around the Liverpool curve!). It's an interesting thought though, and makes a lot of sense. Obviously whether it's called Up & Down or Down & Up has no bearing on how it's worked nowadays!

Given this answer I dont think its freight and not EWS as they do work them.

Yes. I wouldn't call it reversible though. I'd only consider it bi-directional or reversible if it's signalled for movements in both directions through at least the length of a signal section, usually with special controls in the interlocking, e.g. a 'direction of flow' indicator on the panel. I certainly wouldn't call the short length between turnouts in a ladder junction reversible, for example.

Bi-directional is the formal term for a line over which trains can be signalled in either direction, reversible (a less formal term) is bi-directional but normally worked in only one direction.

I dont know, I do know what we called it in S&T and S&C. the main line reversal section on the Up Southport for example, if you said that to somebody they would know where the problem was.

Likewise. I don't really know the layout inside Allerton depot but I'd guess that it might be useful for a unit coming straight off the wheel lathe to go somewhere else, or maybe a unit just going inside to clear the main line briefly - anything else would be on the departure side anyway.

Once they did away with the sheds (Edge hill and Speke) it was left to Allerton to send locos so you would get LLWs from there and would "often" come off Allerton depot over the Up Main and onto the Down Main over the right hand trailing switch just beyond the bridge over Mather avenue.

Used to get express trains off the departure lines running ECS into Lime street. it was used differently then to now. EWS took it on and basically shut it down I think as its operation beyond wheel turning was limited.
You used to get a right old motley crew of rag bag wagons down there for turning. sometimes scrap too.

 

[driver_m]

If this is any help, I sign single, bi-di and reversible lines on the current network. Bi - di for me is a line that you can go in both directions but has an adjacent line, so for me Allerton-Garston is a single from the point where it is in its own and not with adjacent running lines.
Reversibles are a recent thing to us on the old LM region but obvs Western staff are more familiar with them. Platform 5 at the Keynes is the prime example. I tend to use it in one direction (up) but LNWR would say they use it in the opposite direction far more often.

To me a single line was a line with nothing with it. Signalled in both directions. However Halton Jn was not, because it was effectively a double line with one piece ripped out with no provision in one direction. (And yes I was a signalman - at that location too)
Norton bridge doesn’t count either, despite the separation of the Down to the other lines, I just think of it as having a rather large ‘six foot’ separating them.

 

[Tomnick]

I’ve drawn a quick diagram of Mouldsworth to Mickle Trafford to hopefully put the confusion to bed.

That’s the current layout, with axle counters. Prior to that (2006?), when Mouldsworth was still there, there was a short track circuit approaching the signals off the single line in each direction (3 and what is now 10) but otherwise nothing on the single line itself.

To clear signal 2, then, you’ll need (in simple terms) all the axle counters sections from BF to AB inclusive clear, 5 points reverse, and no route set onto the single line from the other end. The state of AF axle counter section is irrelevant. Previously, it’d be a similar situation at the Mouldsworth end, and the tokenless block instrument at the Mickle Trafford end set to accept the train. Again, the presence or otherwise of a train in the Up platform is irrelevant.

Agreed?

Keep guessing, anyway. I know Allerton, just not the depot itself

 

[ComUtoR]

Feels a bit weird to say but that map got me a little excited. Did you draw that freehand and from memory ? Your route maps must be the talk of the depot !

 

[Tomnick]

Feels a bit weird to say but that map got me a little excited. Did you draw that freehand and from memory ? Your route maps must be the talk of the depot !

That was a quick one I knocked up from some photos of the box diagram - it’s way off my route card! I’ve done a few for my own benefit though (obviously not *all* from memory!)...

 

[ComUtoR]

OOoohh Tommy,

I love a well drawn route map I can do a few routes purely from memory and when your showing the Trainees routes or discussing a junction I can knock a quick one up on the board that's quite accurate, they just look more like a scribble than a tech drawing.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

View attachment 69812

I’ve drawn a quick diagram of Mouldsworth to Mickle Trafford to hopefully put the confusion to bed.

That’s the current layout, with axle counters. Prior to that (2006?), when Mouldsworth was still there, there was a short track circuit approaching the signals off the single line in each direction (3 and what is now 10) but otherwise nothing on the single line itself.

To clear signal 2, then, you’ll need (in simple terms) all the axle counters sections from BF to AB inclusive clear, 5 points reverse, and no route set onto the single line from the other end. The state of AF axle counter section is irrelevant. Previously, it’d be a similar situation at the Mouldsworth end, and the tokenless block instrument at the Mickle Trafford end set to accept the train. Again, the presence or otherwise of a train in the Up platform is irrelevant.

Agreed?

Keep guessing, anyway. I know Allerton, just not the depot itself

Down Main / Down & Up Manchester lines from 30m 15ch (signal MT.1) to Mickle Trafford signal box. Down & Up Manchester / Up Main lines from Mickle Trafford signal box to Mouldsworth Ground Frame.

In as far as Im aware the line is TCB and the single line section is axle counters...
Looking at the video

If you are looking at trains travelling from Mickle trafford to Mouldsworth (as there is little debate about the other end).
1:07:42 AWS ramp
1:07:43 Axle counter
1:08:14 Grease pot?
1:08:26 Expansion joint
1:08:29 points out of the single line...

Honest question. Am I missing something. Am I getting something wrong? For instance is that grease pot not a grease pot (it looks like one to me but I may be wrong, on my tele its got writing all over it and hard to see)
I was under the impression you are counted in and counted out and until youre counted out youre still in.

Allerton is something to do with Northern now, so it cant be them.
Midland/LNwR dont use Earlestown... is it a diversionary for them?
Virgin... I know they used the Chat moss now but Earlestown Jn... Diversionary route?
TPE
EMT... But I dont know if they use the Chat moss, they normally use the Up Cheshire I think.

But ManPic isnt on your route card... so not Northern, Virgin, TPE or EMT as they all use ManPic...
So its freight?

 

[Tomnick]

OOoohh Tommy,

I love a well drawn route map I can do a few routes purely from memory and when your showing the Trainees routes or discussing a junction I can knock a quick one up on the board that's quite accurate, they just look more like a scribble than a tech drawing.

Glad you approve! I've always appreciated well-drawn maps and technical drawings. I've always found one of the best ways to learn a route initially, especially a complex layout, is to draw it myself. A colleague has done a full set of computer-drawn maps too - far better than any commercial route maps that I've ever seen (a recent one for a large resignalling scheme was particularly awful, next to useless).

Down Main / Down & Up Manchester lines from 30m 15ch (signal MT.1) to Mickle Trafford signal box. Down & Up Manchester / Up Main lines from Mickle Trafford signal box to Mouldsworth Ground Frame.

In as far as Im aware the line is TCB and the single line section is axle counters...
Looking at the video

If you are looking at trains travelling from Mickle trafford to Mouldsworth (as there is little debate about the other end).
1:07:42 AWS ramp
1:07:43 Axle counter
1:08:14 Grease pot?
1:08:26 Expansion joint
1:08:29 points out of the single line...

Honest question. Am I missing something. Am I getting something wrong? For instance is that grease pot not a grease pot (it looks like one to me but I may be wrong, on my tele its got writing all over it and hard to see)
I was under the impression you are counted in and counted out and until youre counted out youre still in.

I think the thing that you think is an axle counter is a lubricator or similar. You can see the yellow boxes associated with the axle counter heads at, e.g. 1:08:23 - in that case, one on each line, the boundary between BF and AE sections on the Down line and between AE and AF on the Up. The general principle is that they count the axles entering each section (from any direction) and count the axles leaving, and unless the count is equal to zero then it shows occupied. Each section reports back to the interlocking, in simple terms, and the interlocking in turn only allows the route to be set if all the sections in the route are clear. They're no different to track circuits, other than how they determine whether the section is clear or not.

Allerton is something to do with Northern now, so it cant be them.
Midland/LNwR dont use Earlestown... is it a diversionary for them?
Virgin... I know they used the Chat moss now but Earlestown Jn... Diversionary route?
TPE
EMT... But I dont know if they use the Chat moss, they normally use the Up Cheshire I think.

But ManPic isnt on your route card... so not Northern, Virgin, TPE or EMT as they all use ManPic...
So its freight?

Man Picc's on my route card. Chat Moss is just a diversionary route. Self-loading freight. Can't confirm or deny any more than that I don't think