Shortest section of single track

[najaB]

s an example, from RTT. 1Y44 from Fort William leaves Upper Tyndrum at 1319 and arrives at Crianlarich at 1327. meanwhile 1Y24 from Oban leaves Tyndrum Lower at 1320 while the Fort William train is in section, and arrives at Crianlarich at 1331. Both trains continuing at 1337 as 1Y44.

It seems that is covered in the local instructions

 

[Greetlander]

I’m loving where this thread has gone. I went for a drive in Tasmania today and the place was criss-crossed by single track goods lines, many of which are disused.

 

[Tomnick]

What about Goods Loops ? How do they fit in the weird and wonderful world we work in ?

They’re running lines too. The Sectional Appendix gives the definitive answer as always!

 

[ComUtoR]

I've gone in permissive and switched ends but can you leave one there if they are running lines ?

 

[6026KingJohn]

It seems that is covered in the local instructions
View attachment 69291

That is referring to admitting the second train into the platform. I was wondering about two trains, both with a token to Crianlarich approaching a converging set of points at the same time. Does the token section extend into the station or is there a stop point before the points. If so, does that qualify the short section between the points to be a separate single line, which is what the OP was asking about.

 

[Tomnick]

I've gone in permissive and switched ends but can you leave one there if they are running lines ?

Not if it's not an "authorised place" (TW1 36.2) - it's no different to a passenger running line.

(Didn't there used to be something in the Rule Book about it being allowed if it's the normal practice at a given location?)

 

[najaB]

I was wondering about two trains, both with a token to Crianlarich approaching a converging set of points at the same time. Does the token section extend into the station or is there a stop point before the points.

If I understand the local instructions correctly, the driver who doesn't see the "Points Set" light illuminated is required to stop and depress the points plunger to get the points switched over. So would that take care of the situation? I don't know if that makes the track between the "Points set" light and the stop board a short single section?

 

[Tomnick]

I thought Windermere and Colne were regarded as extended sidings as they have no signalling apart from entry and exit signals like sidings?

They’re sometimes referred to informally as such, but technically it’s very wrong - there’s a definite distinction.

 

[6026KingJohn]

If I understand the local instructions correctly, the driver who doesn't see the "Points Set" light illuminated is required to stop and depress the points plunger to get the points switched over. So would that take care of the situation? I don't know if that makes the track between the "Points set" light and the stop board a short single section?

Thank you anyway. Now, what about Dingwall

 

[Ianno87]

I thought Windermere and Colne were regarded as extended sidings as they have no signalling apart from entry and exit signals like sidings?

Point of pedantry - both branches have intermediate signals protecting the crossings at Burneside and Brierfield.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

As the OP says its a single lead junction not a single line, which some people seem to be confusing the two.

Its quite common to have no distance at all between the end of one switch and the start of the other.

In Liverpool just where Wavertree junction is now, or just before/after it actually. but there used to be a double double cross over, so when heading down on the Down Main towards Liverpool you could either follow the line or be switched left and then immediately switch to the right back onto the Down Main.

It looks perfectly normal to me because its done to allow access to the platforms.
Imagine how it would look if the platform and its associated line wasnt there!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

There’s a fairly short stretch on the approach to Llandudno.

Is there? Where about? ‍♂️

 

[ElectroSoldier]

No it isn’t - a siding isn’t a running line, and dead-end single lines (e.g. Colne or Windermere) are running lines, not sidings.

I’d suggest that a physical single line ought to be at least one signal section in each direction to qualify - you certainly wouldn’t consider those short bits such as the OP’s example in York as single lines in the context of the signalling regs!

Indeed.
The photo in Scotland for instance shows a passing loop into a single line that is miles long, the short section that is called as a single line is a lead junction from the line towards the passing loop.

Dont forget the way the railway and its signals work, you go from the rear of one signal to the rear of another, the tracks you travel over is the section, if that section, as in the OPs photo is a single move then its not a "single line". There is only one line, but its not a "single line".

That stop board is the lines section signal, everything from there, including the point work counts as the "single line" and once you pass that stop board you count as having entered the single line and you are only signalled for a move in that direction.

In Manchester, the mid cheshire line, another of Dons videos, shows a "single line" in a couple of places, the first time you see two lines running next to each other, one rail the other Metrolink.
Is it a line by itself, no, but its a single line, there might even be a set of "single line working" right hand trailing points in the middle of it that can be used to get a train from one line to the other if it stops in advance of the crossing and reverses over them, themselves only having a local ground frame to operate them and they are operated by a pointman... but its still a single line because it uses the rules that govern single line use.
THe next section shows Mouldsworth to Mickle Trafford, that is a Tokenless block section, that is a single line and one enters the single line section as soon as you pass the signal that controls the junction even though there are several yards of track where there are infact two lines side by side.

There is signal sections, one to get in and one to get out, and the move is not governed by a single signal move. === S=----- S -=== is how it might look to you but it is === S-----S=== (where S is a signal and the = is two tracks side by side and - is a single track)

 

[ElectroSoldier]

I took this screenshot from the excellent cabview video from Don Coffey (and if you're on here Sir, I apologise for the theft and salute your excellent films).

It's the "single lead junction" across Scarborough Bridge at York. It has me wondering if the section between the points qualifies as a single line, and if so, is there a shorter section anywhere else?

To answer your question no it doesnt. A "single line" has "rules" that make it a single line and while there is at that one small part only 1 line it is just a junction... An unusual one Ill grant you, very unusual, but still a junction not a single line.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

How about the interlaced track at Mitcham on the London Trams?

 

[ComUtoR]

(Didn't there used to be something in the Rule Book about it being allowed if it's the normal practice at a given location?)

There are local instructions in the sexypendage about where we can leave trains on the running line. Thinking about them in that way I guess it makes total sense to be able to leave a unit in a loop if permitted under local instructions.

Ta Mr T

 

[MadMac]

A couple of suggestions from North of the border: Perth-Barnhill and Shieldmuir-Wishaw Central.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Ill tell you an interesting one you can look at, but you guys probably wont see it for what it is as there are more than one line side by side.

Outside Buxton signal box. Don did a video on the run.

1:41

The "single line" because you come out of the sidings into the single line to Hindlow (named simply Up & Down).

When its signalled to allow a move from the sidings up towards Hindlow then that section is classed as a single line because a token must be released from the token machine for it.
I think its about 4 sleepers long between on set of pointwork and the other.

 

[Tracked]

Doncaster - the entrance to platform 6 & 7 (and the siding between them)

 

[Cricketer8for9]

There are local instructions in the sexypendage about where we can leave trains on the running line. Thinking about them in that way I guess it makes total sense to be able to leave a unit in a loop if permitted under local instructions.

Ta Mr T

One of the more amusing autocorrects for a while.

 

[507 001]

Is there? Where about? ‍♂️

Between the home signal and the station throat, where the connection to the Down side carriage sidings is.
https://flic.kr/p/9C5i5S

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Between the home signal and the station throat, where the connection to the Down side carriage sidings is.
https://flic.kr/p/9C5i5S

And we are claiming that as single track how?

 

[507 001]

And we are claiming that as single track how?

Because the Up and Down lines join to create one single line?

Unless somebody has recently changed the definition of the word ‘single’?!

 

[Ianno87]

I can see the dispute between what consitutes a single lead and single line.

Can I propose that in order to consitute a single line, it has to have a line 'name' in the Sectional Appendix?

For example, the single line between Cambridge (Coldham Lane) and Newmarket (Chippenham Jn) is the 'Up and Down Newmarket Single'.

Single leads are usually not named as such.

 

[6026KingJohn]

Indeed.
The photo in Scotland for instance shows a passing loop into a single line that is miles long, the short section that is called as a single line is a lead junction from the line towards the passing loop.

Dont forget the way the railway and its signals work, you go from the rear of one signal to the rear of another, the tracks you travel over is the section, if that section, as in the OPs photo is a single move then its not a "single line". There is only one line, but its not a "single line".

That stop board is the lines section signal, everything from there, including the point work counts as the "single line" and once you pass that stop board you count as having entered the single line and you are only signalled for a move in that direction.

In Manchester, the mid cheshire line, another of Dons videos, shows a "single line" in a couple of places, the first time you see two lines running next to each other, one rail the other Metrolink.
Is it a line by itself, no, but its a single line, there might even be a set of "single line working" right hand trailing points in the middle of it that can be used to get a train from one line to the other if it stops in advance of the crossing and reverses over them, themselves only having a local ground frame to operate them and they are operated by a pointman... but its still a single line because it uses the rules that govern single line use.
THe next section shows Mouldsworth to Mickle Trafford, that is a Tokenless block section, that is a single line and one enters the single line section as soon as you pass the signal that controls the junction even though there are several yards of track where there are infact two lines side by side.

There is signal sections, one to get in and one to get out, and the move is not governed by a single signal move. === S=----- S -=== is how it might look to you but it is === S-----S=== (where S is a signal and the = is two tracks side by side and - is a single track)

Indeed Northbound at Crianlarich I agree that the single line between the points is part of the longer section past the second set of points.
I also pointed out that southbound trains approach at the same time, so are the tokens issued to the drivers both to Crianlarich or is there another stop board on the other side of the points that split the Oban/Fort William lines. If so, that means that there is a signal to enter the single line between the two sets of points, giving us southbound and northbound signals either side of the short stretch in the photo.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Reading this page I have just realised there is a massive gulf between what things actually are and what people consider them to be on the railway, especially considering terms like "single line"

 

[507 001]

Reading this page I have just realised there is a massive gulf between what things actually are and what people consider them to be on the railway, especially considering terms like "single line"

For the purposes of this thread it’s irrelevant though isn’t it?

 

[ComUtoR]

Reading this page I have just realised there is a massive gulf between what things actually are and what people consider them to be on the railway, especially considering terms like "single line"

Consider the following phrases :

"Single Line working" and "Working of a Single Line"

Is it any wonder everyone gets confuzzled.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Consider the following phrases :

"Single Line working" and "Working of a Single Line"

Is it any wonder everyone gets confuzzled.

I wonder how you can get confused over that... They are both the same thing.

For the purposes of this thread it’s irrelevant though isn’t it?

No not really.

I mean for the purpose of this thread does the "single line" at Wrexham that gives access to Wrexham General platforms 3 and 4 count as a single line...
It is after all a junction that looks exactly the same as that one pictured on the first post of this thread but there are two other running lines just a few yards away from it.......

All the actual single lines in this country have rules that govern them, all that is required to give access to that line pictured is the clearance of the junction signal, while access to a real single line requires the issuing of a token, that token may take the form of a token from a Tyre's electric token instrument, a train staff or a radio telegram.

Its a leading junction, of which there are several hundred at least, and as I have said there are places in the country where the "single line" section of it are the same as the one pictured.

 

[ComUtoR]

I wonder how you can get confused over that... They are both the same thing.

Er... They most certainly are not.