Should Class 800 be ordered for the Cross Country franchise?

[Bletchleyite]

And yet somehow Virgin trains still manages to run a commercially viable service at 3tph from New Street to London. Don't mistake your personal preference for the choice most people make.

Does VTWC pay a premium? I thought it received a subsidy. So of course does Chiltern.

Most people do choose the quickest option, though - you can see them all standing on commuter trains when they e.g. board LNR service at Watford rather than using LO.

 

[The Planner]

Does VTWC pay a premium? I thought it received a subsidy. So of course does Chiltern.

I would expect any TOC at the back end of their franchise to be paying premiums.

 

[gg1]

And yet somehow Virgin trains still manages to run a commercially viable service at 3tph from New Street to London.

I didn't claim otherwise and that fact is irrelevant in the context of my post anyway.

Don't mistake your personal preference for the choice most people make.

My preference and the preference of others, as I stated. I'm fully aware price and time is a higher priority for the majority of people, my post was in response to the blanket statement that comfort and setaing layout (ie the type of train) is never a factor in a passenger's choice as to which TOC to use.

 

[quantinghome]

Does VTWC pay a premium? I thought it received a subsidy. So of course does Chiltern.

My point is that the superior comfort and seating layout on Chiltern hasn't affected Virgin. While there will be people who prefer to use Chiltern for these reasons, I suspect it's sufficient small that it doesn't significantly affect Virgin's revenues.

 

[quantinghome]

My preference and the preference of others, as I stated. I'm fully aware price and time is a higher priority for the majority of people, my post was in response to the blanket statement that comfort and setaing layout (ie the type of train) is never a factor in a passenger's choice as to which TOC to use.

You were responding to this:

People really dont select their choice of transport due to the train being used - they will generally always go for price and the time it takes.

As far as i can see, this statement was made in the context of people's general preferences. Whether a few people like yourself make a different decision is neither here nor there in the general scheme of things. Evidently, when TOCs decide what types of train to use, seating layout and comfort don't make much of a difference.

 

[greatvoyager]

You were responding to this:

As far as i can see, this statement was made in the context of people's general preferences. Whether a few people like yourself make a different decision is neither here nor there in the general scheme of things. Evidently, when TOCs decide what types of train to use, seating layout and comfort don't make much of a difference.

To be fair, when the HST was first introduced, it replaced less comfortable trains, and resulted in an increase in passengers, so comfort does count for something.

 

[quantinghome]

To be fair, when the HST was first introduced, it replaced less comfortable trains, and resulted in an increase in passengers, so comfort does count for something.

I suspect the slashed journey times and improved frequencies might have had a bit more to do with it. But yes, the mark 3 carriage is a stone cold design classic.

 

[Energy]

Comfort matters to a point, for example if I was going between Leeds and Manchester and I had to pick between a TPE 185 or a Northern 155, I would pick the 185 every time as they are nicer than the 155s (in my opinion). However if it was between a TPE 185 and a Northern 170 then it would really depend on price and time.

 

[Mattrail12067]

Should cross-country consider
Bi modes for Southwest to Scotland routes
And Manchester to Bristol routes.
Tri modes for Manchester to Bournemouth routes as in Change to diesel at Coventry and then third rail via contact shoe Basingstoke also would that fit an 800 maybe Class 806 or would that be more of a 700 type like Class 745.

 

[swt_passenger]

Should cross-country consider
Bi modes for Southwest to Scotland routes
And Manchester to Bristol routes.
Tri modes for Manchester to Bournemouth routes as in Change to diesel at Coventry and then third rail via contact shoe Basingstoke also would that fit an 800 maybe Class 806 or would that be more of a 700 type like Class 745.

DC power pickup isn’t really a third mode, it’s still an EMU mode, just dual voltage; and wouldn’t necessarily mean a new class number anyway. If it was a 125 mph unit it would be logically in the 8xx range. Could just as easily be an 802 subclass, in the same way some 377 are dual voltage fitted.

We don’t usually refer to dual voltage trains as “bi-mode”, after all...

 

[Speed43125]

DC power pickup isn’t really a third mode, it’s still an EMU mode, just dual voltage; and wouldn’t necessarily mean a new class number anyway. If it was a 125 mph unit it would be logically in the 8xx range. Could just as easily be an 802 subclass, in the same way some 377 are dual voltage fitted.

We don’t usually refer to dual voltage trains as “bi-mode”, after all...

to be fair the whole 'bi-mode' is just marketing gibberish. Electro-Diesel is the technical term and is far more concise in showing what the type is.

 

[S-Bahn]

Should cross-country consider
Bi modes for Southwest to Scotland routes
And Manchester to Bristol routes.
Tri modes for Manchester to Bournemouth routes as in Change to diesel at Coventry and then third rail via contact shoe Basingstoke also would that fit an 800 maybe Class 806 or would that be more of a 700 type like Class 745.

That would involve buying two types of train.
Better to stick to 'Bi-Mode' and just carry out further electrification. There has been serious discussions around electrification of the X-Country route to Southampton for freight.

 

[swt_passenger]

That would involve buying two types of train.
Better to stick to 'Bi-Mode' and just carry out further electrification. There has been serious discussions around electrification of the X-Country route to Southampton for freight.

DC shoe gear connected into the existing DC link between transformer and 3 phase traction converter does not make it a “different type of train”...

 

[option]

More importantly not all 5 coach units are created equal, and certainly not in terms of capacity:

- 220/221 (4 coaches) 200 seats

- 221 (5 coaches) 250 seats

- 802 (GWR) 326

- 802 (TPE) 342

I know this is an old post...

You can't just look at pure seat numbers.

The seat spacing, tables, luggage racks etc suitable for a 1h40m journey London-Bristol won't necessarily be suitable for the 3h15m Birmingham-Newcastle, or the type of passengers.
Yes Plymouth is the same time, but that's a long journey on GWR, whereas there are much longer journeys easily doable on XC.

Take out 4 seats per car for better luggage space, & that's 20 seats less.
Want to space them out more, or have an extra table each side, that's at least another 20 seats less.


Your also not comparing like for like.

A 22x car length is ~23metres, an 802 is 26metres.

Then there's also Route Availability, the 22x have an RA of 2, the 802 is 4.
I don't know if there are any current XC routes where that would be an issue (?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seat spacing, tables, luggage racks etc suitable for a 1h40m journey London-Bristol won't necessarily be suitable for the 3h15m Birmingham-Newcastle, or the type of passengers.

Ignoring the issue with the seat bases for the moment, the seat spacing, table provision and luggage provision on the Class 80x is vastly superior to that of the Voyager. So if 80x aren't suitable for Birmingham-Newcastle, neither are Voyagers.

 

[option]

We at least need to replace the HSTs. Some were built back in 1976 and are now incredibly inefficient. GWR could do it, LNER could do it, why can't CrossCountry? With so much electrified track on the XC route, why are we running diesel trains?

yet GWR are still running HSTs... & aren't some of the LNER ones going to EMR (?)


What electrified track?
Penzance to Birmingham, they can't get onto electric until Kings Norton, & there's none on the Kings Heath line which they also use.
North of Birmingham to the north-east & Scotland, nothing until you get to the ECML, & then nothing after Edinburgh.
South-east, nothing.
Stansted service? Nothing until Ely.

 

[HSTEd]

yet GWR are still running HSTs... & aren't some of the LNER ones going to EMR (?)


What electrified track?
Penzance to Birmingham, they can't get onto electric until Kings Norton, & there's none on the Kings Heath line which they also use.
North of Birmingham to the north-east & Scotland, nothing until you get to the ECML, & then nothing after Edinburgh.
South-east, nothing.
Stansted service? Nothing until Ely.

Pretty sure a dual voltage electrodiesel could be built out of the 800 type platform if someone wanted one.
Then there is quite a lot between Basingstoke and Bournemouth, and the occasional train to Guildford would also benefit.

 

[greatvoyager]

Pretty sure a dual voltage electrodiesel could be built out of the 800 type platform if someone wanted one.
Then there is quite a lot between Basingstoke and Bournemouth, and the occasional train to Guildford would also benefit.

That would enable more of the routes to be covered efficiently. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to create that idea.

 

[The Ham]

I know this is an old post...

You can't just look at pure seat numbers.

The seat spacing, tables, luggage racks etc suitable for a 1h40m journey London-Bristol won't necessarily be suitable for the 3h15m Birmingham-Newcastle, or the type of passengers.
Yes Plymouth is the same time, but that's a long journey on GWR, whereas there are much longer journeys easily doable on XC.

Take out 4 seats per car for better luggage space, & that's 20 seats less.
Want to space them out more, or have an extra table each side, that's at least another 20 seats less.


Your also not comparing like for like.

A 22x car length is ~23metres, an 802 is 26metres.

Then there's also Route Availability, the 22x have an RA of 2, the 802 is 4.
I don't know if there are any current XC routes where that would be an issue (?)

Even ignoring the fact that the 80x's have better seating layouts than the 22x's, even if you removed 40 seats you'd still see a passenger increase to 286 from 200/250. That's still 15 to 43% more capacity.

Highlighting that the 80x's are 26m coaches and the 22x's are 23m coaches is the whole point of the post, there comparison of two very different trains as if so 5 coach units have the same problems with capacity was the point of the post.

With regards to where the XC services can/can't run with a 80x:
Bournemouth to Basingstoke doesn't have any 80x clearances, but then you'll be fine to Oxford. Then Oxford to near Birmingham would need checking, but then anything from Rugby through to Manchester should be fine due to the long leading coaches on the 390's.

From the SW you'll be fine through to Gloucester then between there and Birmingham would need checking.

Leeds northwards would be fine, so it's then just checking between Birmingham and Leeds.

Even then there's a good chance that there'll not be much work that's needed to allow them to run.

If you never read the posts of Doom in the IET threads about how the trains where going to be crashing into everything because of the longer coach lengths, yet very little was needed, then it's worth a look.

In reality unless there's tight curves and/or equipment close to the track on bends it's not that much of a problem. Even then it would have to be fairly close to all be a problem.

The vast majority of the XC network would likely be a paper exercise to clear for their use, with a few bits needing to be looked at and even fewer bits needing any work at all. Of those bits that do chances are there'll not be a lot to do.

 

[jimm]

With regards to where the XC services can/can't run with a 80x:
Bournemouth to Basingstoke doesn't have any 80x clearances, but then you'll be fine to Oxford. Then Oxford to near Birmingham would need checking, but then anything from Rugby through to Manchester should be fine due to the long leading coaches on the 390's.

You seem to be forgetting where 80xs go to be prepped for passenger service - Eastleigh.

So Reading-Basingstoke-Winchester-Eastleigh is clearly not going to pose any major issues if it ever came to permitting passenger operation there.

Oxford-Banbury is now a permitted route, with a limited GWR IET service starting there in a couple of weeks' time.

BR deliberately chose the 26m bodyshell length when it was developing the InterCity 250 concept at the start of the 1990s, as not much extra structure clearance work would be needed over and above what was required to allow use of Mk3s.

 

[Iskra]

You're all forgetting that XC don't serve London. So all it will get is cascaded 221's from West Coast and maybe 222's in the future. 22X have life in them yet. Probably some new seat covers.

 

[swt_passenger]

You seem to be forgetting where 80xs go to be prepped for passenger service - Eastleigh.

So Reading-Basingstoke-Winchester-Eastleigh is clearly not going to pose any major issues if it ever came to permitting passenger operation there.

Oxford-Banbury is now a permitted route, with a limited GWR IET service starting there in a couple of weeks' time.

I was just thinking of Eastleigh. I’m unaware (at least from reading threads in these forums) of any significant physical gauging changes being done anywhere for IEPs. I have a funny feeling that in practice they’ll go almost anywhere a Mk3 coach can, although there’s bound to be the odd exceptions where Mk3s were already a tight fit. Perhaps all the massive changes forecast years ago, were more to do with their length, stopping positions, stabling sidings etc etc after all?

(I remember before anyone had ever seen a train a particular poster having a personal anti-IEP crusade based on their length, I wonder what happened to him...)

 

[class 9]

yet GWR are still running HSTs... & aren't some of the LNER ones going to EMR (?)


What electrified track?
Penzance to Birmingham, they can't get onto electric until Kings Norton, & there's none on the Kings Heath line which they also use.
North of Birmingham to the north-east & Scotland, nothing until you get to the ECML, & then nothing after Edinburgh.
South-east, nothing.
Stansted service? Nothing until Ely.

For the long distance SW-NE services, there's probably around 300 miles under the wires, the cross city lines approaching New street through the station (less diesel fumes in New St) to Grand Jct, South Kirkby Jct to Neville Hill West Jct and Colton Jct to Glasgow Central.
I would say that's enough mileage to warrant bi modes.
Compared to EMR bi modes that'll be on electric going St Pancras- Corby/Market Harborough which is less than 90 miles.

 

[Meerkat]

You're all forgetting that XC don't serve London. So all it will get is cascaded 221's from West Coast and maybe 222's in the future. 22X have life in them yet. Probably some new seat covers.

Yeah, like TPE doesn’t serve London so has got a load of old hand me downs.....oh hang on.....

 

[Iskra]

Yeah, like TPE doesn’t serve London so has got a load of old hand me downs.....oh hang on.....

Must have missed them in Sheffield

 

[Meerkat]

Must have missed them in Sheffield

Even Class 185s are pretty new compared to some of the trains London commuters endure

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even Class 185s are pretty new compared to some of the trains London commuters endure

The vast majority of London commuter trains are a similar age to the 185s now - huge fleets of Electrostars and Desiros - and those which aren't have mostly had a very heavy refurb, leaving only the odd few with 1980s interiors like the LNR 319s, and many of those will be replaced in fairly short order.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

With new electrification of some Cross Country services, such as the GWML, and with quite a few services running under electrified lines for some long journeys, I was thinking if it's feasible to order Hitachi IETs for Cross Country services. Maybe for some services, because of third rail electrification, Cross Country would order the first ever tri-mode IETs! Basically IETs that can do diesel, overhead electric and third rail electric.

If that happened then (for journeys where the IETs are suitable and ideal):

Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley or Glasgow Central service would run diesel from Plymouth to Bristol Temple Meads, then under electric mode from Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway (provided the Temple Meads section is electrified), then diesel up until Wakefield Westgate (because the only electrified section would be around Birmingham New Street, and running electric for such a short electrified section would be no use), and then electric from Wakefield Westgate all the way up to Edinburgh or Glasgow.

(Southampton Central and) Reading to Newcastle could run on third rail electric from Southampton Central to Basingstoke, then diesel from Basingstoke to Doncaster (unless Basingstoke to Reading and Oxford gets electrified which in this case it would run on overhead electric from Basingstoke until Oxford lol) and then overhead electric for the rest of the journey, so from Doncaster to Newcastle.

Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly could run on third rail electric from Bournemouth to Basingstoke then diesel from Basingstoke to Coventry (unless Basingstoke to Reading and Oxford gets electrified which in this case it would run on overhead electric from Basingstoke until Oxford lol) and then overhead electric for the rest of the journey from Coventry to Manchester Piccadilly.

Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly could run on overhead electric from Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway (provided the Temple Meads section is electrified), then diesel up to Birmingham New Street, and overhead electric for the rest of the journey from Birmingham New Street to Manchester Piccadilly.


I remember Cross Country were thinking of converting 220s and 221s into bi-mode (the so called eVoyager / Project THOR), but then they didn't bother anymore about it.


I'd love to hear everybody's else opinions on whether ordering IETs for Cross Country is feasible or not, because of quite a large sections of Cross Country services running under electrified lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. 7 car sets would work well.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Yes. 7 car sets would work well.

Indeed, though I think 10 or 9 car on some busier services could work too!