Should Class 800 be ordered for the Cross Country franchise?

[toby_farman]

Does anyone agree that about 65 British Rail Class 802s (to replace all of XC's 22x trains) and heavily refurbishing XC's 170 fleet would be the best solution?

What to do with all the 22x trains?

• Cascade them to GWR to replace the 4 car HSTs ("castle class")
• Cascade them to ScotRail to replace the 27 "Inter7City" trains (unlikely though)
• Cascade them to operaters who use sprinters like 158s on long distance routes such as GWRs three car 158 service from Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
• Cascade them to Grand Central, to replace the 10 unreliable 180s, although I'd like to see Grand Central get 10 802s (5 car) and some 801s (5 car) for the services to Blackpool Central from London Euston, who agrees?

 

[samuelmorris]

In a word, no. That may very well be what a succeeding franchise bidder proposes to do but for the time being, unpopular as their interiors might be, they're still pretty much ideal for the XC route while there is still much of it yet to be electrified as there is. That isn't going to change immediately, if I were proposing to take over, I would probably propose keeping them a little longer and see what other potential bi-mode offerings are available by the time the current order book of 80x units completes. If there's still nothing better by then, perhaps schedule for them to be replaced. Replacing 2 and 3-car DMUs with Voyagers isn't always suitable for various reasons and they would be somewhat wasted in areas with 100mph or lower speed limits, as I believed many of the routes you're suggesting do.

The 180s are generally awful and could probably be replaced with Voyagers but that will only ever account for 15 units. Once VT's Voyagers (I assume) come over to XC, there'll be a large, homogenous fleet. Why break it up? There's no need to replace the HSTs with new units as even if they are going (they're now PRM compliant so no rush there), VT's fleet of 221s will be sufficient to replace them all and account for a small amount of growth.

 

[toby_farman]

In a word, no. That may very well be what a succeeding franchise bidder proposes to do but for the time being, unpopular as their interiors might be, they're still pretty much ideal for the XC route while there is still much of it yet to be electrified as there is. That isn't going to change immediately, if I were proposing to take over, I would probably propose keeping them a little longer and see what other potential bi-mode offerings are available by the time the current order book of 80x units completes. If there's still nothing better by then, perhaps schedule for them to be replaced. Replacing 2 and 3-car DMUs with Voyagers isn't always suitable for various reasons and they would be somewhat wasted in areas with 100mph or lower speed limits, as I believed many of the routes you're suggesting do.

The 180s are generally awful and could probably be replaced with Voyagers but that will only ever account for 15 units. Once VT's Voyagers (I assume) come over to XC, there'll be a large, homogenous fleet. Why break it up? There's no need to replace the HSTs with new units as even if they are going (they're now PRM compliant so no rush there), VT's fleet of 221s will be sufficient to replace them all and account for a small amount of growth.

What did you think about what i said about the Grand Central fleet?

Cascade them to Grand Central, to replace the 10 unreliable 180s, although I'd like to see Grand Central get 10 802s (5 car) and some 801s (5 car) for the services to Blackpool Central from London Euston, who agrees?

 

[samuelmorris]

I saw that, but any issues open-access operators have with stock are largely for them to solve, I'm not keen on the idea of splitting up XC's fleet (and thus requiring new stock) to assist Grand Central. I would rather see the 222s go their way instead. 222s may also yet end up with XC, we don't know.

 

[Energy]

Cascade them to GWR to replace the 4 car HSTs ("castle class")

GWRs three car 158 service from Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central

Why would GWR spend money on getting old-ish diesel intercity trains into service with driver training etc. when they can just order more 5 car 802s which can operate these routes and lots of the staff are trained on?

Cascade them to ScotRail to replace the 27 "Inter7City" trains (unlikely though)

Scotrail HSTs seem to be a short term solution for high speed trains as lots of electrification is happening right now, once the electrification is finished they would go for bimodes or battery emus for stretches which aren't electrified, like the west highland line, and emus for fully electrified routes.

Cascade them to Grand Central, to replace the 10 unreliable 180s, although I'd like to see Grand Central get 10 802s (5 car) and some 801s (5 car) for the services to Blackpool Central from London Euston, who agrees?

The 180s are unreliable but Grand Central aren't in a rush to replace them, the 180s are PRM compliant and aren't in desperate need of replacement, Grand Central can just wait for new rolling stock if it needs new rolling stock and they wouldn't bother for a fleet which are only there for a few years maximum.

Cascade them to operaters who use sprinters like 158s on long distance routes such as GWRs three car 158 service from Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central

Excluding GWR, there is Scotrail, Northern, EMR and SWR. EMR are getting cascaded turbostars, SWR could replace theirs but the 22X units don't seem the right fit, Scotrail could replace theirs but they have 40 158s and 43 156s so there aren't enough units to fully replace all of the dmus, plus they have turbostars already, Northern would probably just order more 158s.

Also there is a dedicated thread on the future of 22Xs here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-of-22x-units.167576/

 

[Clansman]

What to do with all the 22x trains?

• Cascade them to ScotRail to replace the 27 "Inter7City" trains (unlikely though)

Suggested to death on these forums of recent times. Have a read at page 10 on here from #281, which demonstrates why this will never ever happen.

 

[greatvoyager]

I think that the best idea would be a new design, as it could provide an opportunity to integrate other ideas. Different franchises have different requirements so surely the trains should be tailored to the franchise.

 

[Energy]

I think that the best idea would be a new design, as it could provide an opportunity to integrate other ideas. Different franchises have different requirements so surely the trains should be tailored to the franchise.

There isn't a truly one size fits all train for every franchise and if xc replace all the trains they have, they have a large order and I think manufacturers would be more happy to make something unique for them because of the relatively large order.

 

[greatvoyager]

There isn't a truly one size fits all train for every franchise and if xc replace all the trains they have, they have a large order and I think manufacturers would be more happy to make something unique for them because of the relatively large order.

Also, a new train type could provide XC with a unique selling point, and hopefully improve many issues faced. As much as I love 22x units, when the time comes that they get life expired, they should be completely replaced en masse.

 

[The Ham]

Also, a new train type could provide XC with a unique selling point, and hopefully improve many issues faced. As much as I love 22x units, when the time comes that they get life expired, they should be completely replaced en masse.

Given that we're already talking about a fleet of 68 units, most likely to be 88 (with the addition of the Virgin 222's) so at the very least 340 coaches, but most likely 440+ coaches. This compares with circa 600 coaches which is what GWR have.

This is likely to mean that any delivery is going to take a bit of time (probably not as long as GWR's fleet, but likely to be at least a year).

It's already going to be 2020 before any decision is made on the running of the tender for a new franchise. From there to start of delivery is easily 3 years, which would put the 22x fleet at about 20 years old.

However it wouldn't take much of a delay for them to be reaching 25 years old (especially if you add the 222 fleet into the mix so that the franchise doesn't have such a strong need to be relet for a few more years). If you then assume that it's likely that they won't find a new home for a year or two after coming out of service, then it could well be that you're not going to get much more that 10 years of service or of them and even if something were to happen this week you'd be looking at but much more than 15 years of service for anyone else.

Add in their high costs, the desire to decarbonise the system (which should see electrification of much of the XC network), and their poor capacity when run in short lengths (they wouldn't be too bad if they are 7+ coach unit lengths) and you could see the logic in scraping some of the fleet early.

I do however wonder if you could create a very powerful 4 coach EMU which you could sit between 2 halves of a Voyager which would enable you to run 8 coach trains with bimodal capability (probably with 90mph running off the wires). By doing so you could just scrap the Voyager bits and still be left with a EMU that would be used beyond the end of life of the Voyagers. You may struggle to get the acceleration of the Voyagers when running only on electricity, however this could be supplemented with some Diesel power to boost performance.

You'd probably have to rewrite the control systems so there's going to be some fairly costly changes, however probably still less than building 2 extra coaches (assuming that you're getting an 8 coach train for 15 years and a 4 coach EMU for a further 25 years and therefore the 4 coaches of the Voyager would be used for nearly half the life of 2 coaches).

Although that could leave you with need to buy extra stock in 15 years time, depending on where it was being used that could be just a straight EMU, or cascading of 80x's with them being replaced by EMU's.

 

[The Planner]

Where are XC maintaining this fleet and stabling them if they either suddenly overnight switch from 22x to 802 or if they get all the 222s from EMT?

 

[Energy]

I do however wonder if you could create a very powerful 4 coach EMU which you could sit between 2 halves of a Voyager which would enable you to run 8 coach trains with bimodal capability (probably with 90mph running off the wires). By doing so you could just scrap the Voyager bits and still be left with a EMU that would be used beyond the end of life of the Voyagers. You may struggle to get the acceleration of the Voyagers when running only on electricity, however this could be supplemented with some Diesel power to boost performance.

Is there much point? It seems like a bodge until new units arrive and is there much point doing that as it would require many modifications?

Where are XC maintaining this fleet and stabling them if they either suddenly overnight switch from 22x to 802 or if they get all the 222s from EMT?

It's never going to be a sudden switch, it will be a gradual transition into the new trains.

Also, a new train type could provide XC with a unique selling point, and hopefully improve many issues faced. As much as I love 22x units, when the time comes that they get life expired, they should be completely replaced en masse.

Agreed, on lots of sections they compete with other operators, such as GWR, LNER and the new west coast operator so creating a train people prefer could definitely benefit them, could happen if virgin win the franchise.

 

[The Planner]

It's never going to be a sudden switch, it will be a gradual transition into the new trains.

Doesn't answer the question though.

 

[Energy]

Doesn't answer the question though.

Depends on the maintanence contract which they sign if they get 80X units, 222s would probably be maintained with the voyagers.

 

[The Planner]

Depends on the maintanence contract which they sign if they get 80X units, 222s would probably be maintained with the voyagers.

They won't all fit at Central Rivers.

 

[Clip]

Also, a new train type could provide XC with a unique selling point, and hopefully improve many issues faced. As much as I love 22x units, when the time comes that they get life expired, they should be completely replaced en masse.

Why would they need a unique selling point?

 

[Energy]

They won't all fit at Central Rivers.

Another company could maintain them

 

[greatvoyager]

Why would they need a unique selling point?

Simply because on several sections, such as Plymouth-Bristol and Newcastle-Edinburgh, the main express traction is already 80x. There are people who don't like them and therefore it would be good if people had a choice. If you don't like 80x you could travel on a different type of train. Also, a unique selling point can be used for publicity, and can allow the company to put it at the centre of advertising, in hope of encouraging more people onto the service.

 

[The Ham]

They won't all fit at Central Rivers.

Three Rivers (if I understand it correctly) maintain the whole of the 220/221 fleet, so even just the extra 20 units from Virgin would be able to carry on being maintained there if they moved to XC.

Now clearly of the 222's moved over as well there's be a need for extra capacity, however given that (again I may well be wrong, but I understand it to be the case) it can deal with 20 units a night whilst there's 78 units in the 220/221 fleet you'd only need capacity for about 8 extra units a night.

Now chances are that would need to be somewhere else, but there could be potential for that to be somewhere else. It could well be somewhere else on the XC network. Given that Laira has lost a lot of HST's from GWR it could well be that extra maintenance could be carried out there.

However that assumes that:
- the whole 22x fleet moves to XC
- the 20 units which are maintained can only be 5 coach (23m) and that longer (reconfigured into fewer units with some end coaches being scrapped) couldn't be accommodated
- that there's no spare capacity for more units to be maintained at that site.

 

[JonathanH]

Three Rivers (if I understand it correctly) maintain the whole of the 220/221 fleet, so even just the extra 20 units from Virgin would be able to carry on being maintained there if they moved to XC.

It could presumably carry out the heavy maintenance but in terms of overnight stabling, there are WC 221s at Polmadie, Crewe and Holyhead overnight, none of which are used by XC for servicing their units so two-thirds of any 221s transferred over would need to be serviced at the other existing locations. As for 80x, you would presumably need a new Hitachi depot built somewhere.

I reckon that there are 52 XC Voyager diagrams at the moment (plus the New Street hot spare) for 58 units - presumably the 5 spare are all at Central Rivers.

They are at the following locations overnight:
Long Rock - 2
Laira - 5
Barton Hill - 4
Eastleigh - 8
Central Rivers - 15
Longsight - 4
Crofton - 4
Tyne Yard - 4
Craigentinny - 6

20 units at Central Rivers sounds about right, given the number of WC diagrams that start there.

Now chances are that would need to be somewhere else, but there could be potential for that to be somewhere else. It could well be somewhere else on the XC network. Given that Laira has lost a lot of HST's from GWR it could well be that extra maintenance could be carried out there.

Laira is rather at an extremity of the Cross Country network so difficult to see how you could sensibly expand the servicing there to cope with a much larger fleet without expanding the servicing elsewhere too.

 

[Clip]

Simply because on several sections, such as Plymouth-Bristol and Newcastle-Edinburgh, the main express traction is already 80x. There are people who don't like them and therefore it would be good if people had a choice. If you don't like 80x you could travel on a different type of train. Also, a unique selling point can be used for publicity, and can allow the company to put it at the centre of advertising, in hope of encouraging more people onto the service.

People really dont select their choice of transport due to the train being used - they will generally always go for price and the time it takes.

So what about the other sections that you havent mentioned?Why would it be good for those?

 

[The Ham]

It could presumably carry out the heavy maintenance but in terms of overnight stabling, there are WC 221s at Polmadie, Crewe and Holyhead overnight, none of which are used by XC for servicing their units so two-thirds of any 221s transferred over would need to be serviced at the other existing locations. As for 80x, you would presumably need a new Hitachi depot built somewhere.

I reckon that there are 52 XC Voyager diagrams at the moment (plus the New Street hot spare) for 58 units - presumably the 5 spare are all at Central Rivers.

They are at the following locations overnight:
Long Rock - 2
Laira - 5
Barton Hill - 4
Eastleigh - 8
Central Rivers - 15
Longsight - 4
Crofton - 4
Tyne Yard - 4
Craigentinny - 6

20 units at Central Rivers sounds about right, given the number of WC diagrams that start there.



Laira is rather at an extremity of the Cross Country network so difficult to see how you could sensibly expand the servicing there to cope with a much larger fleet without expanding the servicing elsewhere too.

Given that we're talking about (potentially) 8 units being serviced on an enlarged fleet and that Laira already has 5 units (and relatively nearby 2 at Long Rock) it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possiblity, however was mostly only suggested as it could accommodate extra units. However looking at your list another option could be Eastleigh, as that's already has 8 units.

 

[JonathanH]

Given that we're talking about (potentially) 8 units being serviced on an enlarged fleet and that Laira already has 5 units (and relatively nearby 2 at Long Rock) it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possiblity, however was mostly only suggested as it could accommodate extra units. However looking at your list another option could be Eastleigh, as that's already has 8 units.

I guess that the uncertainty is what work is carried out at each of the locations which see Voyagers overnight. What is the capability of each location for servicing Voyagers and how many more could each take? From the enthusiasts perspective, the reduction in the GW HST fleet would appear to suggest Laira might have capacity for more Voyagers but it couldn't be the only place where more units would be serviced. You would need to increase the units being serviced at most of the existing locations.

One noticeable point is that almost all of the Voyagers from Central Rivers depart paired so doubling up Voyagers in service would require additional empty stock workings to Birmingham at start and end of service. Therefore running longer trains on Cross Country requires a considerable amount of timetabling and planning work beyond just procuring the units. It would be interesting to know just what the cost to Cross Country of increasing the fleet would be.

5 for 4 would appear to be relatively straightforward. Quite whether 4+4 for 5 is practical depends on where you are going to service the units overnight.

 

[greatvoyager]

People really dont select their choice of transport due to the train being used - they will generally always go for price and the time it takes.

So what about the other sections that you havent mentioned?Why would it be good for those?

I know lots of people who despise the 80x units and will avoid them at all costs. I just feel that passenger comfort is important and as CrossCountry operates the longest routes, they should have the most comfortable trains. 80x seats for over 2 hours are unbearable.

 

[Clip]

I know lots of people who despise the 80x units and will avoid them at all costs. I just feel that passenger comfort is important and as CrossCountry operates the longest routes, they should have the most comfortable trains

YEs they should be comfortable but i dispute that there are many people who will go out of their way due to a class 800 being in use - that could be a detour for hours at a time and people will simply not do that.

80x seats for over 2 hours are unbearable.

I dont mind them and neither do my travelling companions so where does that leave you?

 

[quantinghome]

Also, a new train type could provide XC with a unique selling point, and hopefully improve many issues faced. As much as I love 22x units, when the time comes that they get life expired, they should be completely replaced en masse.

When will they be life-expired? They're not 20 years old yet. They'll be around for another 10-20 years.

 

[greatvoyager]

When will they be life-expired? They're not 20 years old yet. They'll be around for another 10-20 years.

I'd say they'd be life expired around 2030 or 2040.

 

[gg1]

People really dont select their choice of transport due to the train being used - they will generally always go for price and the time it takes.

Some do. Unless I have to be there especially early, I choose Chiltern over Virgin to travel from Brum to London because both the mk3s and 168s are more comfortable than Pendolinos. A couple of people I work with feel the same.

 

[greatvoyager]

YEs they should be comfortable but i dispute that there are many people who will go out of their way due to a class 800 being in use - that could be a detour for hours at a time and people will simply not do that.




I dont mind them and neither do my travelling companions so where does that leave you?

Actually, the routes I travel, such as Plymouth to Bristol have CrossCountry services with no detours.
And it leaves me travelling on a comfy HST or voyager.

 

[quantinghome]

Some do. Unless I have to be there especially early, I choose Chiltern over Virgin to travel from Brum to London because both the mk3s and 168s are more comfortable than Pendolinos. A couple of people I work with feel the same.

And yet somehow Virgin trains still manages to run a commercially viable service at 3tph from New Street to London. Don't mistake your personal preference for the choice most people make.