Should freight trains be held during peak hours?

[Clip]

West Drayton

What freight?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/WDT/2019/06/20/1720?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Ind Plan Arr Act Arr Origin Pl ID TOC Destination Plan Dep Act Dep
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1D91 GW Didcot Parkway 1700 1700
WTT pass Bristol Temple Meads 2 1A23 GW London Paddington 1700 1705¼
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1D34 GW Oxford 1702½ 1715¼
WTT pass Penzance 2 1A88 GW London Paddington 1704 1709¾
WTT 1704 1703 London Paddington 3 2R52 GW Reading 1704 1704¼
WTT 1704 1703½ Reading 4 2P62 GW London Paddington 1705 1704¾
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1C23 GW Bristol Temple Meads 1710½ 1710
WTT pass Reading Traincare Depot 2 5P93 GW London Paddington 1711 1712½
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1C90 GW Penzance 1713½ 1713
WTT pass London Paddington 3 1N92 GW Maidenhead 1715½ 1711½
WTT pass Worcester Shrub Hill 2 1P36 GW London Paddington 1716 1718¼
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1J91 GW Frome 1717½ 1717¼
WTT pass Swansea 2 1L71 GW London Paddington 1718½ 1720¾
WTT pass Reading Traincare Depot 4 3R06 GW London Paddington 1720½ 1707¼
WTT 1721 1720¼ London Paddington 3 2R53 GW Reading 1721 1721¼
WTT 1724 1728¼ Reading 4 2P63 GW London Paddington 1725 1728¾
WTT pass Bristol Temple Meads 2 1A24 GW London Paddington 1725½ 1723½
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1B63 GW Carmarthen 1725½ 1725¼
WTT pass Maidenhead 4 3R60 GW London Paddington 1726½ 1732
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1D35 GW Oxford 1730 1730¾
WTT pass Newbury 2 1K27 GW London Paddington 1731½ 1728
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1W02 GW Hereford 1733 1735
WTT 1733 1735½ London Paddington 3 2R55 GW Reading 1733 1736½
WTT 1735 1735½ Didcot Parkway 4 2P65 GW London Paddington 1736 1736
WTT pass Taunton 2 1A89 GW London Paddington 1737½ 1734
WTT pass Maidenhead Carriage Sdgs 5Z57 XR Old Oak Depot 1739½ N/R
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1C24 GW Taunton 1740½ 1743¾
WTT pass London Paddington 3 1N93 GW Maidenhead 1743 1741¾
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1C91 GW Paignton 1743½ 1745¾
WTT pass Worcester Shrub Hill 2 1P37 GW London Paddington 1747 1746
WTT pass Cardiff Central 2 1L74 GW London Paddington 1750 1750
WTT 1751 1750 London Paddington 3 2R58 GW Reading 1751 1751
WTT 1750 1749¼ Reading 4 2P66 GW London Paddington 1751 1751
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1G60 GW Cheltenham Spa 1752½ 1753¼
WTT pass Paignton 2 1A90 GW London Paddington 1754½ 1758¼
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1B69 GW Swansea 1755½ 1757½
WTT pass Didcot Parkway 2 1P38 GW London Paddington 1758 1801¼
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1D93 GW Didcot Parkway 1759 1802¼
WTT pass Bristol Temple Meads 2 1A25 GW London Paddington 1800½ 1804½
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1W36 GW Worcester Shrub Hill 1802½ 1804½
WTT pass Plymouth 1A91 GW London Paddington 1803 N/R
WTT 1802 1758¾ Maidenhead 4 2P68 GW London Paddington 1803 1802¾
WTT 1804 1804¼ London Paddington 3 2R59 GW Reading 1804 1805½
WTT 1809 1810¾ Reading 4 2P67 GW London Paddington 1810 1811½
WTT pass London Paddington 3 1R06 GW Reading 1810 1810¾
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1C25 GW Bristol Temple Meads 1811½ 1812¾
WTT pass Hayes & H'ton Tarmac Sdgs 695C ZZ Stoke Gifford (Fhh) 1813½ Cancel
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1C92 GW Penzance 1813½ 1814½
WTT pass Hereford 2 1P39 GW London Paddington 1815 1815¾
WTT pass London Paddington 1 1J93 GW Frome 1817½ 1818½
WTT pass Swansea 2 1L76 GW London Paddington 1818 1817¾
WTT 1819 1818 London Paddington 3 2R60 GW Reading 1819 1819

 

[4F89]

Exactly right. Both the length and weight of most freight trains mean that once they leave their start point it is best to keep them moving at least until they reach any booked "holding" point. And detailed examination of Real Timestrains (aka RTT on here) will also reveal that there are occasions when freights most definitely do wait for passenger trains: the WCML is a good place to look for this. But such waits are generally built into the planned schedules. As other posters have said the apparent conflicts between passenger and freight trains tend to arise only because an individual train somewhere is running out of course for whatever reason. It should also follow that since passenger trains are very much in the majority they are far more likely to be the original source of delays than freights.

Also, a freight train moving at a constant speed will be less of a disruption than a passenger stopper that has to slow and speed up all the time.

And also, freight companies still pay to use the network, so why the hell should they not have equal billing? The biggest thing that holds the network up is trespassers and failures, not freight trains.

 

[plarailfan]

How can medical supplies going to a docks for export be regarded as in any way "urgent". If they were urgent and being exported overseas they would go by air freight.

Yes, I realise it seems to be an odd statement, it is strange, but true, that containers full of medical supplies and aid, do go to countries affected by floods, famines and other disasters. I have, occasionally, been involved with some of these loads and some of them have gone to hospitals affected by severe conditions. I expect some items will be air freighted as well, as those would be able to arrive at the affected zone, in a matter of days.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Perhaps passenger trains should be banned at night and weekends to allow for freight trains and engineering works

 

[4F89]

An intelligent extension of HS2 would be a large loading gauge so you can have roll on/roll off lorries like the chunnel, taking the trip to the north/london etc and taking lorries off the road. It was done for the tunnel, why not overland and really make a dent in this climate stuff? Lorry lobby still employing drivers etc, just moving stuff quicker over the long distance jobs. Win/win

 

[Llanigraham]

Well frieght is less important, at least when it comes down to time. Freight doesn't have to be in time for work, school, hospital appointments. I'm not advocating banishing freight to the roads, merely not having it clogging up the railway during peak hours!

Freight is NOT less important.
Some freight is "time important" and does have to be at places at specified times.
Freight is not clogging up the railway.

 

[Tom B]

The railways compete against road traffic. If you were looking at both options and the railways said "Ah yes, but your load could sit for 4 hours in each peak", would you go with them for urgent movements? Everything is now just in time!

I read an article a few years ago describing the attitude to freight in the "good old days" - it was very much a case of "it'll get there when it gets there" and a driver could go out to do a relatively straightforward journey and not be expected back until the end of his shift.

Presumably modern traction makes lighter work of the heavy freight? Not to mention the undoubted contractual requirements etc.

 

[robbeech]

The fact is when there is no or little disruption it works fairly well. So it’s only during notable disruption where this causes a problem. Of all the instances of disruption, what percentage was caused by the freight trains?

 

[rwuk]

The fact is when there is no or little disruption it works fairly well. So it’s only during notable disruption where this causes a problem. Of all the instances of disruption, what percentage was caused by the freight trains?

Probably a vanishingly small proportion. I was delayed many years ago by a freight train going up in smoke at/around Micheldever which meant that the CrossCountry train Inwas on went via Chandlers Ford/Andover. I’d be surprised if the impact that caused comes even remotely close to the train that sat down at Berrylands on the I think, down fast, recently-ish which pretty much broke the peak out of Waterloo that day.

In the past ten years that’s the only freight train (admittedly that I’m aware of) that’s impacted my journey, but its certainly not the only passenger train failure that’s affected me.

 

[800002]

West Drayton

From what I can workout:
The 1526 Acton - Merehead empties were running 6 late at West Drayton tonight - 15/44 booked (15/49H actual) which delayed 2N41 the 1550 pad - didcot parkway which was 4 late (having departed PAD 2 late, btw).
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H17433/2019/06/20/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C23023/2019/06/20/advanced



I further add 9T42 as the potential culprit to snagging the Merehead empties exiting Acton as the cause of the delay:
Acton West: 9T42 15/25H - 3 late at 1529
Fgt. 15/30 - 1H late at 1531H
2N41 15/33H - 2 late at 1536

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G54234/2019/06/20/advanced

This is ofcouse if 2N41 was the OPs intented train? I struggled to find any other significant freight occurance this afternoon - most of it ran to time ( at west drayton anyway).
Happy to re-assess should further information be provided

 

[big all]

Before we say it's impractical/impossible, the old Southern Region a generation ago used to do EXACTLY THIS. Embargo hours were much as described, morning and evening peaks. And there was more freight around then.

Nowadays I'm regularly at Lewisham at 16.30 on a Friday afternoon. An empty stone hopper freight comes through the substantial multi-scissors junction there which is such a pinch point for suburban passenger services just at that time, off the Nunhead line and slowly through the station. Seems surprising, bearing in mind those old rules.

to be fair in general at mt[mixed traction] depots like redhill norwood brighton and vic on central for example
its far far easier to fully utilize a driver with a rush hour passenger then a loco hauled freight outside the rush hours
indeed during the 70s a loco may work the something like 6.45 le [light engine]with a norwood driver to east grinstead viaduct 07.50 east grinstead crompton and eight mk 1s to london bridge arrive say 8.34 releilfe by a redhill driver
turnover engine takes the train to nxg[ new cross gate] sdgs
you go up the shunt neck at london bridge for the next set about 20 mins later
you arrive at nxg and after shunting at say 9.20 you cross over the down side le
for the say 10.10 nxg to woking via redhill engineers arrive around midday leave say 13.20 arrive perhaps 1500 after shunting back to the upside for the evening loco hauled possibly the same set as earlier back to london bridge
any way the point i am making is a driver in a siding with a train is very non productive and as rail is now fragmented a freight driver is virtually only a freight driver so the wheels need to keep turning to be on time and profitable

 

[Dieseldriver]

Wow... OK, so...
Firstly, at the specific location of West Drayton (as someone who in the not too distant past has driven freight trains through that exact station) any freight train during the daytime is running right up the backside of a stopping passenger train right the way through that corridor between Slough and Acton. They are not holding up passenger trains, even a class 7 with a maximum permitted speed of 45mph still has a higher average speed than an all stations passenger train and merely slots in between them (encountering cautionary aspects nearly all the way as a result).
Most freight trains (especially class 4s) have a much higher average speed than all but the fastest express passenger trains, if the freight train is kept running at its top speed.
Freight operating companies pay a hefty wedge in track access charges for their pathways, money that gets injected back into the railway. (They also pay for delay minutes as passenger companies do, if they were causing the diabolical number of delays to passenger trains as the OP suggests then this would simply be unacceptable to the freight operating companies who would struggle to make a reasonable profit as a result).
Freight train paths are scheduled and timetabled just as passenger pathways are (and trust me, these pathways are generally quite generous and if the service is running relatively to time, these freight trains are not interfering with the passenger service).
I can also assure you that at the merest hint of service disruption, any freight trains in the area will be pretty low down on the list of priorities whilst Network Rail Signallers try to keep the services running. Any freight train driver will tell you of the many hours they have sat in loops watching the late running passenger trains scurry past, waiting for a margin for them to be sent back out onto the mainline behind one again.
The OPs perception of rail freight is simply wrong, occasionally freight trains do delay passenger trains (surprise surprise, sometimes passenger trains delay passenger trains...) however, by and large they plod along in their pathway, ducking and diving between passenger trains and mainly without any major dramas.

 

[mrmartin]

I totally agree with OP. The amount of time late running freight trains cause chaos at Stratford is really ridiculous, causing late notice platform changes to avoid. Nevermind the limit on NLL services that freight causes (with massive gaps in the service to allow them being pathed causing serious overcrowding)

This forum seems to fetishize freight, but it's totally on the way out (thankfully). Coal is virtually eliminated from the power grid now which was one of the key uses (plus transporting the waste out of the stations). A14 improvements will allow more containers to be moved by road, freeing the rails for much more useful passenger services.

 

[800002]

I totally agree with OP. The amount of time late running freight trains cause chaos at Stratford is really ridiculous, causing late notice platform changes to avoid. Nevermind the limit on NLL services that freight causes (with massive gaps in the service to allow them being pathed causing serious overcrowding)

This forum seems to fetishize freight, but it's totally on the way out (thankfully). Coal is virtually eliminated from the power grid now which was one of the key uses (plus transporting the waste out of the stations). A14 improvements will allow more containers to be moved by road, freeing the rails for much more useful passenger services.

Does this approach mean you actually favour taking say a single freight off the rails and displacing in onto the road with upto (and in many cases in excess of) 60 lorries?

Wow...

I think people need to realise the importance of rail freight and it's benefits... when it comes to 'delaying passenger services' as I pointed out earlier - the culprit is often ultimately a fellow passenger service. Freight gets hit hardest in delays as the train just can't cope as well with the disruption to its schedule.

*goes to find acceleration profiles for passenger traction versus loaded freight traction*
Often too, it's humans that delay the passenger service...

 

[Starmill]

A14 improvements will allow more containers to be moved by road, freeing the rails for much more useful passenger services.

That's definitely why all of that work has been done near Ipswich, constructing a new chord a few years ago and doubling a section of the branch. To allow more freight to be carried on the A14.

but it's totally on the way out (thankfully)

Well, if ya says so.

 

[SideshowBob]

This forum seems to fetishize freight, but it's totally on the way out (thankfully).

I sincerely hope not! If anything, we need more freight on the railway, not less! And that's not out of any interest in loco spotting either!

Coal is virtually eliminated from the power grid now which was one of the key uses (plus transporting the waste out of the stations).

There's plenty of other types of freight to move and more could be added. It'd be great to see some expansion in car transport by rail, for example (including the reappearance of Motorail). Also, although I don't know how extensive the mail train setup is at the moment, there seems to be no shortage of parcels to shift, a market that seems likely to grow.

A14 improvements will allow more containers to be moved by road, freeing the rails for much more useful passenger services.

(My emboldening) "More" useful? Debatable. I think it's safe to say that raill freight is vastly more efficient than road freight.

 

[GB]

This forum seems to fetishize freight, but it's totally on the way out (thankfully). Coal is virtually eliminated from the power grid now which was one of the key uses (plus transporting the waste out of the stations). A14 improvements will allow more containers to be moved by road, freeing the rails for much more useful passenger services.

Freight on the way out? Thats why vast millions have been spent over the years on capacity projects? You better ring Network Rail and tell them they are wrong and wasted their/our money. Road haulage has its place but can't even begin to compete on long distance vs high volume services...how many lorries would it take to replace just one 50 container train or a 24 wagon stone train?
With the exception of coal, freight is not going any where so while you do not have to like, unfortunately for you you are certainly going to have to lump it.

 

[Nippy]

Maybe Mendip Rail should show us just how many lorry loads there are on the 4000+ tonne stone trains that come up from Somerset to London every day?

 

[AM9]

The original post in this thread is just another: 'this rail traffic inconveniences me, - it's not important to me so why can't it be changed?' I'm not particularly fascinated by freight movements, but it clearly is a significant user of the railway. Maybe the OP should spend a holiday in the US or Canada where rail freight rules. Fortunatel, those that matter don't share the OP's views, so nobody will be messing up what is important infrastructure use in the UK for the benefit of a misguided complaint.

 

[hwl]

Maybe Mendip Rail should show us just how many lorry loads there are on the 4000+ tonne stone trains that come up from Somerset to London every day?

Minimum of 140 lorries per train assuming they are tractor unit + trailer so more in reality as many sites can only handle rigid lorries.

 

[Ianno87]

Exactly right. Both the length and weight of most freight trains mean that once they leave their start point it is best to keep them moving at least until they reach any booked "holding" point. And detailed examination of Real Timestrains (aka RTT on here) will also reveal that there are occasions when freights most definitely do wait for passenger trains: the WCML is a good place to look for this. But such waits are generally built into the planned schedules. As other posters have said the apparent conflicts between passenger and freight trains tend to arise only because an individual train somewhere is running out of course for whatever reason. It should also follow that since passenger trains are very much in the majority they are far more likely to be the original source of delays than freights.

And then also consider the cost of fuel required to re-start a freight train from a stand. It's a lot.

 

[AM9]

And then also consider the cost of fuel required to re-start a freight train from a stand. It's a lot.

Although that reinforces the real case for electrification of freight-intensive lines just as much a passenger routes. It's a tragedy that the electric spine project has faltered.

 

[Ianigsy]

Before we say it's impractical/impossible, the old Southern Region a generation ago used to do EXACTLY THIS. Embargo hours were much as described, morning and evening peaks. And there was more freight .

When the Class 33s started to work more on the Western and LM regions in the 1980s, it was often claimed that they were over-maintained in that they tended to work back to their home depot every few days, but the Southern 's response was that they needed a higher level of reliability.

About once a fortnight it seems that a freight either fails or runs late over the S&C, with the consequence that the unit for the 1649 Leeds-Carlisle turns back at Skipton and is held for the 1656 stopper. I would imagine there are some people who use that train to commute from places like Settle and it must be infuriating. Mind you, the most frustrating one in my experience has been when my train home from Leeds has been held to allow the New Measurement Train through!

 

[hwl]

I totally agree with OP. The amount of time late running freight trains cause chaos at Stratford is really ridiculous, causing late notice platform changes to avoid. Nevermind the limit on NLL services that freight causes (with massive gaps in the service to allow them being pathed causing serious overcrowding)

This forum seems to fetishize freight, but it's totally on the way out (thankfully). Coal is virtually eliminated from the power grid now which was one of the key uses (plus transporting the waste out of the stations). A14 improvements will allow more containers to be moved by road, freeing the rails for much more useful passenger services.

2 of the hourly LO NLL gaps are because the timetable was altered in May 18 to add an extra 2tph LO services, unfortunately the 5 car 710s haven't been delivered yet. So why not blame TfL or Bombardier rather than freight? Or would that destroy your arguement?

With the growth at Felixstow the A14 improvements won't be able to cope and the aim is to add another 20tpd of freight.

 

[DarloRich]

I totally agree with OP. The amount of time late running freight trains cause chaos at Stratford is really ridiculous, causing late notice platform changes to avoid. Nevermind the limit on NLL services that freight causes (with massive gaps in the service to allow them being pathed causing serious overcrowding)

This forum seems to fetishize freight, but it's totally on the way out (thankfully). Coal is virtually eliminated from the power grid now which was one of the key uses (plus transporting the waste out of the stations). A14 improvements will allow more containers to be moved by road, freeing the rails for much more useful passenger services.

this is comedy gold. It is utterly incorrect.

The original post in this thread is just another: 'this rail traffic inconveniences me, - it's not important to me so why can't it be changed?' I'm not particularly fascinated by freight movements, but it clearly is a significant user of the railway. Maybe the OP should spend a holiday in the US or Canada where rail freight rules. Fortunatel, those that matter don't share the OP's views, so nobody will be messing up what is important infrastructure use in the UK for the benefit of a misguided complaint.

Agreed.

Mind you, the most frustrating one in my experience has been when my train home from Leeds has been held to allow the New Measurement Train through!

THat might be more importnant than the passenger train. Posters here don't see or even acknowledge the bigger picture.

 

[Photohunter71]

The best solution would have been not to have Beeching's cuts and to put a bit more thought into the rail network. As I have previously stated, I'm all for advocating freight by rail. Where I live, we have a disused freight terminal which could in theory with a bit of forward thinking, be used as a city distribution centre from rail to road and vice versa. Re-instate the Portobello freightliner depot and use it sensibly.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I totally agree with OP. The amount of time late running freight trains cause chaos at Stratford is really ridiculous, causing late notice platform changes to avoid. Nevermind the limit on NLL services that freight causes (with massive gaps in the service to allow them being pathed causing serious overcrowding)

I must be unobservant because I don't see this chaos at Stratford which I use quite often. The London Overground trains on the North London Line are crowded because the short platforms restrict the trains to five coaches, regardless of the freight movements. The solution is not to ban freight trains but for TfL to introduce SDO on longer trains. TfL is familiar with SDO because they use it on the East London Line!

 

[pdeaves]

The original post doesn't seem to specify which direction the freights were running. In my area, most freight runs contra-peak (i.e. towards London in the evening and away from London in the morning).

On a different subject, if we were to constrain freight to the middle of the night, what happens to all the terminal employees? Will they want to work permanent nights? What about their family life? The situation could end up that the company could end up having to pay a small night shift to deal with one train, then also a day shift to deal with onward processing and customers. I don't see that as either fair or practical.

 

[baz962]

Perhaps passenger trains should be banned at night and weekends to allow for freight trains and engineering works

What a brilliant idea, this a million times. Already looking forward to driving Monday to Friday office hours, thank you, thank you, thank you

 

[baz962]

I must be unobservant because I don't see this chaos at Stratford which I use quite often. The London Overground trains on the North London Line are crowded because the short platforms restrict the trains to five coaches, regardless of the freight movements. The solution is not to ban freight trains but for TfL to introduce SDO on longer trains. TfL is familiar with SDO because they use it on the East London Line!

You are un observant then, I'm an NLL driver and I often leave a Stratford platform and get held while a freight comes round Channelsea. I don't know why they are late, but they are. I also get held at Camden while they come up from Primrose Hill and at Gospel Oak too.