*Should* Network SouthEast return?

[Journeyman]

I think that that's an issue.

Marlylebone - Birmingham services are too valuable nowadays. I think in classic NSE days they used to terminate at Banbury.

That said, as part of the BR family, NSE wasn't really supposed to compete directly with InterCity. There's nothing to say that modern day NSE wouldn't be able to compete with longer distance services. It could be market differentiation. New NSE could offer the cheap - walk up slow option, while the longer distance operator could offer the faster, higher quality alternative (I'm aware that this already happens on the WCML).

Yeah, the London to Liverpool locals were born out of NSE's outer suburban services, combining them with Central Trains services, and they form a genuine budget alternative to Avanti. Elsewhere, though, the opposite has happened - former Thames Trains services have sort of disappeared, because GWR now uses IETs on them, and they're hard to tell apart from former IC services. Separating them out again would be difficult, and I'm not convinced it would be worth the effort.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, the London to Liverpool locals were born out of NSE's outer suburban services, combining them with Central Trains services, and they form a genuine budget alternative to Avanti. Elsewhere, though, the opposite has happened - former Thames Trains services have sort of disappeared, because GWR now uses IETs on them, and they're hard to tell apart from former IC services. Separating them out again would be difficult, and I'm not convinced it would be worth the effort.

I must admit, and I've said this previously, I think there's a case for having budget, walk-on options on the main IC routes, as on the WCML. Whether a new NSE is the way to achieve that, I don't know.

 

[bramling]

Yeah, the London to Liverpool locals were born out of NSE's outer suburban services, combining them with Central Trains services, and they form a genuine budget alternative to Avanti. Elsewhere, though, the opposite has happened - former Thames Trains services have sort of disappeared, because GWR now uses IETs on them, and they're hard to tell apart from former IC services. Separating them out again would be difficult, and I'm not convinced it would be worth the effort.

GWR is one of the thornier ones for sure, though it could be done (although to what benefit?).

Chiltern I don’t think is actually an issue, as HS2 will probably scupper their Birmingham visions, and one could certainly argue that the “London commuter” operation now goes out beyond Banbury.

LNwR again would be a case of splitting at Birmingham, and might actually give a bit more focus to Northampton which seems to be forgotten whilst the TOC looks at Birmingham revenue.

C2C, GTR and the southern region TOCs are no problem, and you could easily push NSE out to Norwich nowadays with a modern version of the “Network Express” brand.

So it’s only really GWR that is a problem. However electrify to Oxford and Berwyn, and you could probably siphon off those routes easily if a paperwork boundary was needed. NSE could quite easily reach Hereford, and perhaps Swindon/Cheltenham.

 

[JonathanH]

Elsewhere, though, the opposite has happened - former Thames Trains services have sort of disappeared, because GWR now uses IETs on them, and they're hard to tell apart from former IC services.

They haven't disappeared as much as using IETs is a distinguishing feature. The former Thames Trains services are run DOO. The former Great Western ones aren't.

So it’s only really GWR that is a problem. However electrify to Oxford and Berwyn, and you could probably siphon off those routes easily if a paperwork boundary was needed. NSE could quite easily reach Hereford, and perhaps Swindon/Cheltenham.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for the Oxford / Cotswold services to stay with the Intercity operator (as of course the high peak trains ran when NSE / Intercity shared the route) with the London & South Eastern operator doing the slow services to Didcot and Oxford locals.

 

[Journeyman]

I must admit, and I've said this previously, I think there's a case for having budget, walk-on options on the main IC routes, as on the WCML. Whether a new NSE is the way to achieve that, I don't know.

I think it can only happen where paths exist, and the long-distance locals were a dividend created out of merging Central and Silverlink services. I think you'd struggle to do it elsewhere, although maybe First's new London to Edinburgh service is a step in that direction. Still not sure how the fares will work there, though.

MML is getting the 360s for a new high-frequency outer suburban service, which is a big change.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it can only happen where paths exist, and the long-distance locals were a dividend created out of merging Central and Silverlink services. I think you'd struggle to do it elsewhere, although maybe First's new London to Edinburgh service is a step in that direction. Still not sure how the fares will work there, though.

MML is getting the 360s for a new high-frequency outer suburban service, which is a big change.

The MML electrics will be interesting, but not going anywhere near the midland cities wouldn't really offer an alternative to the longer distance services.

They'd be more suited to the trad NSE/BR model in that respect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, the London to Liverpool locals were born out of NSE's outer suburban services, combining them with Central Trains services, and they form a genuine budget alternative to Avanti. Elsewhere, though, the opposite has happened - former Thames Trains services have sort of disappeared, because GWR now uses IETs on them, and they're hard to tell apart from former IC services. Separating them out again would be difficult, and I'm not convinced it would be worth the effort.

London-Liverpool LNR services have gone and won't return, they were an operational nightmare and utterly destroyed punctuality on the south WCML.

 

[yorksrob]

I just want proper NSE with slammers really.

 

[Journeyman]

I just want proper NSE with slammers really.

You were making sensible points until you said that.

 

[yorksrob]

You were making sensible points until you said that.

That's the real point though

 

[Journeyman]

That's the real point though

Sigh. I'm outta here.

 

[yorksrob]

Sigh. I'm outta here.

We're never going to agree on this. But we can discuss other aspects of the discussion.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn’t say Silverlink Metro was *that* bad. Operationally they were pretty competent

Indeed they were, eh @ChiefPlanner

 

[bramling]

Indeed they were, eh @ChiefPlanner

When one considers the places they served, they weren’t that bad. When LU took over the DC stations I remember one of the first “quick win” jobs was to have a load of bullet holes removed from Harlesden station!

If my memory is right, the “personal security” issues were actually more focussed on the DC lines than the NLL. LU taking over the dodgy bit from Queen’s Park to Wembley Central would probably have resolved most of that even if it had stayed with Silverlink.

Places like Kensal Green, Harlesden and Stonebridge Park were certainly pretty menacing at night in the late 90s / early 2000s.

 

[Wolfie]

I just want proper NSE with slammers really.

I want a modern customer friendly railway not a spotters playpen featuring archaic old junk.

 

[yorksrob]

One of the best things about NSE was the Network Railcard, and I want that - for the whole of the network.

 

[Journeyman]

I want a modern customer friendly railway not a spotters playpen featuring archaic old junk.

Exactly. I can't be bothered with hankering after trains that have been gone for 20 years, and were decades past their sell-by date even then.

 

[Fincra5]

I could see merit in it returning! Simple Brand for the whole network area, whcih still has a Network Card ...

Entirely possible with a Concession Style system going forward. Each Sector of NSE could be operated by a differen't private company but the cards are in hands of the Government.

 

[Journeyman]

I could see merit in it returning! Simple Brand for the whole network area, whcih still has a Network Card ...

Entirely possible with a Concession Style system going forward. Each Sector of NSE could be operated by a differen't private company but the cards are in hands of the Government.

Keeping things like the NSE and IC brands should have been done right from the start. It was a very bad mistake that they were allowed to die out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Keeping things like the NSE and IC brands should have been done right from the start. It was a very bad mistake that they were allowed to die out.

IC I'd agree, and that being killed was DaFT's fault as I believe they charged licence fees to use the brand. NSE I can't decide - to me, they should probably be regional/regional express regardless of if they're London or not.

 

[yorksrob]

Keeping things like the NSE and IC brands should have been done right from the start. It was a very bad mistake that they were allowed to die out.

Ah, we agree on something !

Something could probably have been made of Regional Railways had Gmt been prepared to put more in.

It was a long time ago though.

 

[Journeyman]

Ah, we agree on something !

Something could probably have been made of Regional Railways had Gmt been prepared to put more in.

It was a long time ago though.

Yeah. When London bus services were first tendered, the corporate image was lost, but TfL then insisted on at least 80% red and prominent branding, so lost brands can be restored with effort.

I don't know if Regional Railways was particularly worth keeping as a major brand, as each component of it covered a fairly large area with its own hubs and character, so there could have been emphasis on local networks.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah. When London bus services were first tendered, the corporate image was lost, but TfL then insisted on at least 80% red and prominent branding, so lost brands can be restored with effort.

I don't know if Regional Railways was particularly worth keeping as a major brand, as each component of it covered a fairly large area with its own hubs and character, so there could have been emphasis on local networks.

I must admit, I have little experience of RR - I didn't venture North of London by train until 1996.

But I think there's something to be said for a national regional network. The idea of being able to get the train from Shrewsbury to Truro,or from anywhere in the UK to anywhere seems like an underexploited marketing opportunity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know if Regional Railways was particularly worth keeping as a major brand, as each component of it covered a fairly large area with its own hubs and character, so there could have been emphasis on local networks.

I think I'd have Regional/RegionalExpress as service brandings, but you might want to have more regional brandings for the operation itself, if that makes sense.

I must admit, I have little experience of RR - I didn't venture North of London by train until 1996.

But I think there's something to be said for a national regional network. The idea of being able to get the train from Shrewsbury to Truro,or from anywhere in the UK to anywhere seems like an underexploited marketing opportunity.

That wasn't what RR was for, and would be a reliability nightmare. The likes of Liverpool-Norwich exist in that vein I suppose, but it has never been known for its punctuality.

 

[Fincra5]

Keeping things like the NSE and IC brands should have been done right from the start. It was a very bad mistake that they were allowed to die out.

Agreed, the ideas and ideology behind the Privatisation programs took their toll on that. Each Company wanted to make their "Brand", creating the false illusion of competition!

It can be done, look at Scotrail, its the same brand but a different operator sticker (for now) and the same for Transport for Wales (now in-house ofc)...

 

[yorksrob]

I think I'd have Regional/RegionalExpress as service brandings, but you might want to have more regional brandings for the operation itself, if that makes sense.



That wasn't what RR was for, and would be a reliability nightmare. The likes of Liverpool-Norwich exist in that vein I suppose, but it has never been known for its punctuality.

RR should be to get from anywhere to anywhere (excepting the IC bits).

The railway (going back to BR) has never made enough of the being able to get anywhere in the country aspect - I never understood in my youth why NSE Ashford didn't have a map of the whole of BR on the station !

 

[Fincra5]

Would certainly brighten up a 700 to bring back the old Aquafresh Livery ... With new DDA Compliant Doors!

 

[yorksrob]

It is a wonderful livery that suits anything built from 1938 onwards.

I'd love to go back down south and hop on to NSE.

 

[Non Multi]

It is a wonderful livery that suits anything built from 1938 onwards.

I'd love to go back down south and hop on to NSE.

East Kent Railway at Eythorne has the surviving cl.210 driving car (457001) in NSE livery, fitted with non-original Networker seats & 'blue flash' moquette.

There were Networkers still running round in 'toothpaste' livery in the mid-'00s. I'm struggling to be nostalgic about the recent past.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In many respects I'd love NSE to return, the branding was excellent and timeless - a visit to Downham Market station (painted into NSE colours a couple of years ago to mark NSEs 30th anniversary) shows how it is a design classic.

That said the railway and life in general has moved on and we shouldn't go back.

Interestingly I wonder if in 30 years time people will be saying we should return to GWR, Avanti, Thameslink branding etc.

It certainly wasn’t timeless though, because if you look at pictures of units in NSE livery and imagine them in use today, it would look horrendously dated. Look at the stations on the Northern City Line that, until recently, had NSE branding - it just looks old fashioned.