Should "new Northern" scrap 15x as a sweetener?

[Meerkat]

I understand the reliability hasn't been great, which is the case with all the 'proper' new fleets it seems. A follow-on order would presumably iterate the design as lessons have been learnt.

Refurbishing existing sprinters would be good and well but still be the same number of coaches as before whereas D-Train might be four or more cars. You would also be stuck with the poor air quality and energy efficiency that is the result of using a 1980s drive chain.

Wouldn’t it be simpler to stick a new motor and drive train under something built for such things rather than an electric tube train??

 

[tbtc]

I love this Forum!

People get outraged that money is spent on new staff uniforms after "only" seven years of a franchise, people worry about the cost of repainting trains too... but some people are apparently perfectly fine with scrapping a couple of hundred carriages (to be replaced by brand new, presumably), even though the 150s have probably got another ten years running in them.

But, please tell me that new shirts for Guards is the reason why the railway is so heavily subsidised...

 

[hexagon789]

I understand the reliability hasn't been great, which is the case with all the 'proper' new fleets it seems. A follow-on order would presumably iterate the design as lessons have been learnt.

Refurbishing existing sprinters would be good and well but still be the same number of coaches as before whereas D-Train might be four or more cars. You would also be stuck with the poor air quality and energy efficiency that is the result of using a 1980s drive chain.

Another issue as I see it with the D-train is unlike Pacers they aren't really capable of mainline running being underpowered and only 60mph capable

 

[krus_aragon]

My response: Should "new Northern" scrap 15x?

Yes, some. (The 150s, and probably 153s.) But not as a sweetener.

The 150s will be pushing 40 years old by the middle of this decade, so a plan for their replacement will be needed. But for the immediate future, they can be much more of a sweetener by being out in service operating longer trains. I don't think Northern's passengers will be interested in more promises of jam tomorrow, given how the present operator has failed to deliver much of what was promised.

(By my reckoning, the earliest that any suitable stock will be available for cascade is around 2022, and any new-build stock will take longer.)

 

[Anonymous10]

It would make sense to take the TfW trains, if only to save Northern the problems of maintaining capacity whilst refurbing their own trains.
Refurbed 150s on the basket cases, 195s on the urban, 158/175 on longer services, any spare 170s to Chiltern and XC. All the while steadily electrifying.

And the 153s able to make 3 or 5 car 15x trains

 

[NoMorePacers]

Scrapping 158s would be terrible in my opinion surely there's still use for them they are very comfortable and decent long haul trains

The seat cushions on the unrefurbished variants are worn right through in some cases. And they're filthy as well.

 

[Anonymous10]

The seat cushions on the unrefurbished variants are worn right through in some cases. And they're filthy as well.

Still no reason to scrap them refurb them and give them a good clean

 

[bramling]

The seat cushions on the unrefurbished variants are worn right through in some cases. And they're filthy as well.

So you’d scrap a train because the seat cushions are worn?

 

[squizzler]

even though the 150s have probably got another ten years running in them

Really? To add to the 150's other problems I recall reading that the body shells are rusting away. Another score for the D-train - they are aluminium and the bogies are meant to be recent.

 

[Killingworth]

Cheers.
If they are staying a change to 2+2 seating would be in order I think

I was on a 150 today and sat near the door where there were 3 seats opposite 2. One passenger with very large case blocked the lot! Fortunately it was off peak, but today's massive cases are a real challenge to the layout of most trains.

 

[hexagon789]

I was on a 150 today and sat near the door where there were 3 seats opposite 2. One passenger with very large case blocked the lot! Fortunately it was off peak, but today's massive cases are a real challenge to the layout of most trains.

Cycles are another one, people blocking doorways with them.

And people will bring stupid sized cases with them and expect them to have no issues. Perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't there a defined size of luggage one can bring on a national rail train?

 

[Killingworth]

Cycles are another one, people blocking doorways with them.

And people will bring stupid sized cases with them and expect them to have no issues. Perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't there a defined size of luggage one can bring on a national rail train?

Guards van, porters, trunks, luggage trolley, luggage booked separately in advance. Price like airlines, as we used to do for bikes and prams?

Or bigger, longer trains.

 

[deltic08]

Well, didn't Northern use them on Harrogate stoppers where linespeeds were insufficiently high for them to get into "second gear" so to speak, increasing fuel consumption?

Harrogate has reverted to a mix with 170s, 158s, with occasional 155s, 153s and 150s in the peaks.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm of the opinion that 3 carriages should be the minimum on the S&C throughout the day.

How busy is the S&C these days? It's a long time since I've travelled on it. Does it see tourism-related spikes in use at certain times of the year?

 

[yorksrob]

How busy is the S&C these days? It's a long time since I've travelled on it. Does it see tourism-related spikes in use at certain times of the year?

Undoubtedly it does in the summer. But it's reasonably busy all year round as well I find.

 

[Journeyman]

Undoubtedly it does in the summer. But it's reasonably busy all year round as well I find.

Sounds like the trends seen elsewhere. The Fort William sleeper used to be virtually empty at this time of year, recently the number of winter users has surged.

 

[py_megapixel]

How about just do an approximation to what Greater Anglia are doing. Just buy a few hundred bi-modes. FLIRTs, Civities, Aventras, Desiros, whatever you want. Replace all but the newest trains (i.e. 331s, 195s, 333s, possibly 323s and 158s). As many carriages as is plausible (3, but enough for most units to semi-permanently be coupled in 6-car formations). Air conditioning, seats which aren't Fainsa ironing-boards, etc. etc.

The fleet is all the same. No issue with one specific unit not able to work without another due to not having a toilet. No more TrainFX "screaming at passengers" in an incompatible unit. No more Random Unit Generator.

Sure, it would be expensive. But it would be a brilliant experience for passengers, and you wouldn't have to do it again for another 35 years.

 

[JonathanH]

How about just do an approximation to what Greater Anglia are doing. Just buy a few hundred bi-modes. FLIRTs, Civities, Aventras, Desiros, whatever you want. Replace all but the newest trains (i.e. 331s, 195s, 333s, possibly 323s and 158s). As many carriages as is plausible (3, but enough for most units to semi-permanently be coupled in 6-car formations). Air conditioning, seats which aren't Fainsa ironing-boards, etc. etc.

The fleet is all the same. No issue with one specific unit not able to work without another due to not having a toilet. No more TrainFX "screaming at passengers" in an incompatible unit. No more Random Unit Generator.

Sure, it would be expensive. But it would be a brilliant experience for passengers, and you wouldn't have to do it again for another 35 years.

That decision would have needed to be made before they started spending money doing PRM work and the recent overhauls like it was for Greater Anglia. Probably one for the future.

 

[tbtc]

How about just do an approximation to what Greater Anglia are doing. Just buy a few hundred bi-modes. FLIRTs, Civities, Aventras, Desiros, whatever you want. Replace all but the newest trains (i.e. 331s, 195s, 333s, possibly 323s and 158s). As many carriages as is plausible (3, but enough for most units to semi-permanently be coupled in 6-car formations). Air conditioning, seats which aren't Fainsa ironing-boards, etc. etc.

The fleet is all the same. No issue with one specific unit not able to work without another due to not having a toilet. No more TrainFX "screaming at passengers" in an incompatible unit. No more Random Unit Generator.

Sure, it would be expensive. But it would be a brilliant experience for passengers, and you wouldn't have to do it again for another 35 years.

So, as a "sweetener" (to quote the OP), we spend hundreds of millions of pounds in a short period of time to replace all existing stock that (stock doesn't need scrapping in the next five years)... and then we'll presumably have hundreds of carriages all getting elderly at the same time and need withdrawing at around the same time (all the while, people complain that we spend too much money by giving staff a new shirt every seven years)

Northern could be a lot smarter with the stock they have. For example, go back to the "156s west side, 158s east side" approach of the previous franchise - rather than training all the Hull crew on unfamiliar 155s, send the 155s to Heaton to replace the 156s there (alongside the 158s), thus permitting a bigger fleet of 156s in "Lancashire" << keep things simpler.

 

[py_megapixel]

So, as a "sweetener" (to quote the OP), we spend hundreds of millions of pounds in a short period of time to replace all existing stock

Well, you need an awful lot to 'sweeten' the mess that the DfT and Arriva have put the railways in the North into. If it was OK for Anglia, why not for the North?

The refurbished 15x's are still very noisy and draughty throughout the entire train, the seating layout is unsuitable, and there are not enough carriages to provide an adequate service. At least ordering a replacement now would mean that in 5-10 years, when they are truly on their last legs and need replacing, new trains can be put into service as quickly as possible.

we'll presumably have hundreds of carriages all getting elderly at the same time and need withdrawing at around the same time

Merseyrail are now doing just that, replacing a homogeneous fleet with a new homogeneous fleet. Same with virtually all Tube stock, Tyne and Wear Metro etc.

 

[The Ham]

I do wonder (although there'll be complaints about yet more London cast offs) if there's scope to either get battery 350's for Northern or SWR (with Northern getting the majority of the 159's from SWR).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder (although there'll be complaints about yet more London cast offs) if there's scope to either get battery 350's for Northern or SWR (with Northern getting the majority of the 159's from SWR).

I doubt anyone would complain about 350/2s, they are very good units even with the 3+2 seating.

 

[whhistle]

Yes, they should go.

Order more 195s (as that standard has been set now) and get rid of the 15x class.

Only so many refurbishments and mods you can throw at an old vehicle.

 

[Alan2603]

I think part of the problem with the 15x stock, particularly the 150’s is that the ‘refurbishments’ have been done to such a low standard (ie cheaply). The ‘refurbished’ units now look just as bad as they were before. Thus, these units compare starkly with newer stock such as the 195’s etc and look old and tired and rattle loudly.

Then add that ‘northern by arriva’ promised new or highly refurbished trains on their ‘northern connect’ routes yet are still sending along any old units they can manage to find (particularly on the Middlesbrough to Newcastle and onwards route). Again, the contrast between new and older trains is light night and day due to the poor quality of the refurbishments.

Ultimately, they didn’t order enough new trains, or trains of the right length in a lot of cases (and not having gangways for joined units certainly hasn’t helped). One must ask whatever possessed them to order two car 195s with less seats than the units they replaced on certain routes.

Overall northern is a mess and yes, it will take time to sort out. However, there could be relatively quick wins by, for example, leasing 319’s etc cheaply and loco hauling them in order to lengthen some services which are badly overcrowded. This can initiate a mini cascade of the replaced DMU units to strengthen other overcrowded routes.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes, they should go.

Order more 195s (as that standard has been set now) and get rid of the 15x class.

Only so many refurbishments and mods you can throw at an old vehicle.

Not a quick process tfw ordered 2 years ago they won't be here till 2023-2024 thus it will take about as long for northern yes they should go but it should be a long term goal till then I actually think more 150s especially ones from tfw would be good

 

[py_megapixel]

I think part of the problem with the 15x stock, particularly the 150’s is that the ‘refurbishments’ have been done to such a low standard (ie cheaply). The ‘refurbished’ units now look just as bad as they were before. Thus, these units compare starkly with newer stock such as the 195’s etc and look old and tired and rattle loudly.

Then add that ‘northern by arriva’ promised new or highly refurbished trains on their ‘northern connect’ routes yet are still sending along any old units they can manage to find (particularly on the Middlesbrough to Newcastle and onwards route). Again, the contrast between new and older trains is light night and day due to the poor quality of the refurbishments.

Ultimately, they didn’t order enough new trains, or trains of the right length in a lot of cases (and not having gangways for joined units certainly hasn’t helped). One must ask whatever possessed them to order two car 195s with less seats than the units they replaced on certain routes.

Overall northern is a mess and yes, it will take time to sort out. However, there could be relatively quick wins by, for example, leasing 319’s etc cheaply and loco hauling them in order to lengthen some services which are badly overcrowded. This can initiate a mini cascade of the replaced DMU units to strengthen other overcrowded routes.

Do 150s have enough power that they could pull a couple of 319 carriages (the non-motor cars being very similar to 150s) if they were simply inserted in the middle, forming permanent 4-car formations?

 

[43096]

Do 150s have enough power that they could pull a couple of 319 carriages (the non-motor cars being very similar to 150s) if they were simply inserted in the middle, forming permanent 4-car formations?

No, they don’t.

 

[The Ham]

Do 150s have enough power that they could pull a couple of 319 carriages (the non-motor cars being very similar to 150s) if they were simply inserted in the middle, forming permanent 4-car formations?

No, they don’t.

In which case would it not be better to look to battery trains using EMU's which would otherwise be out of service.

Even if that means those trains go to the likes of SWR to free up the 159's.

Given the announcement about no more new diesel, petrol or hybrid cars post 2035 we should be looking to do everything that we are able to reduce the need for more DMU's beyond the current trains, with new bimodal trains having a fairly limited time before we stop ordering then as well (say 10 years).

This is likely to mean a lot more electrification than is currently the case, it may also require some loco hauling to bridge the shortfall (possibly doing what they did for Weymouth in the past for the WofE line services to Exeter with the change over being at Yeovil).

 

[43096]

In which case would it not be better to look to battery trains using EMU's which would otherwise be out of service.

Even if that means those trains go to the likes of SWR to free up the 159's.

I'd love to know how a battery powered train is going to do Basingstoke to Exeter on one charge.

 

[randyrippley]

Scrapping the Sprinters would solve a lot of Northern problems.
There would have to be service reductions due to the reduced stock, but that would reduce costs, reduce staffing needs and reduce the throughput through Castlefield so improving timekeeping. Reduced capacity would also allow price increases as well.
Unfortunately that would mean fewer passengers could use the service, but they were lossmaking anyway so the fewer the better..........
Before long costs would be under control

You think its a mad idea and far fetched? Wait and see what happens...........