• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Should the class 60 be fully restored to frontline service?

Status
Not open for further replies.

richieb1971

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2013
Messages
1,935
Well EWS boycott the 60's in favour of 66 traction. So the demise of the 60's is essentially the work of that one single policy.

So how come an 86 or a 90 can be re-geared from passenger to freight but a 60 cannot be re geared from a 60mph machine to a 75mph?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

cjmillsnun

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
3,254
There's no reason it can't be technically. However it comes down to pound notes at the end of the day.

Economically, it doesn't make sense. DBS have no need for all of them, it is costing them nothing to let them sit, therefore they sit.
 

bigdelboy

Member
Joined
9 Apr 2012
Messages
198
Well EWS boycott the 60's in favour of 66 traction. So the demise of the 60's is essentially the work of that one single policy.

So how come an 86 or a 90 can be re-geared from passenger to freight but a 60 cannot be re geared from a 60mph machine to a 75mph?

There is always the possibility i suppose that the 60's may suffer from other factors such as high track wear; vibration; rough riding; high component wear should the higher speed be sanctioned.


Those 60's now out of service will require the 'super 60' treatment to make them ready again. This is probably quite an expensive treatment. So it mostly basic economics. But if Colas for instance wins more business then it may choose buy/rebuild some more ...
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
One vital factor is overlooked in all of this. Fuel tank capacity/range. A 66 holds more in its tank (1410 gallons, opposed to a 60 with 990 gallons). Out of the 20 or so that are operational with DBS, only 11 have extended range tanks fitted (1500 gallons). So, just over half of the fleet have the same range as a 66, or conversely, just under half have less range than a 66. I assume that the locos were picked for the 'super 60' refurbs on the basis of component condition and engine hours, rather than range/usability.

Another thing people forget is fuel consumption, just because the 60s only have 990 gallons in the tank doesn't mean they have 1/3rd less range than the (quite thirsty) 66s with their 1400 gallon tanks.
 

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
You mean buy and pay for DBS to rebuild them for them..

Exactly. DBS hold all the aces when it comes to the future of the 60's.

And for that matter, all of the remaining 58's, 24 of the 90's and 30 of the 92's .... but I digress ....
 

37038

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2014
Messages
699
Remember Colas have 3 more to be released from Toton, DB should be doing another 5 and Colas have that option for 10 more
 

aaronoxford77

Member
Joined
22 May 2015
Messages
11
Lets hope colas see the light and take up the option on the other 10. So DB is def gonna do anothet 5. Is that set in stone?
 

richieb1971

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2013
Messages
1,935
Meanwhile companies are ordering brand new locos for extravagant prices.

What a situation...
 

ExRes

Established Member
Joined
16 Dec 2012
Messages
5,762
Location
Back in Sussex
Meanwhile companies are ordering brand new locos for extravagant prices.

What a situation...

Compared to what ?, if it's the 60s then we already know that they have a limited capability, if you were signing the cheques at a FOC for an all round loco would you go for a 70 or a 60 ? a 68 or a 60 ?
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
The leasing companies. Angel Trains, Porterbrook, Evershot Rail, Beacon Rail etc etc. The vast majority of companies own very little rolling stock outright. Most of it is leased from one or more of the the ROSCOs (ROlling StoCk Operating company)

One of the errors of privatisation was that when the ROSCOs were set up, their role was to lease passenger stock to the franchised operators. The FOCs though (not including later entrants to the market) were given ownership of their locomotives, which lead to EWS (as was) stockpiling large numbers of surplus locos and letting them rot when they could have been offered to other operators (including passenger operators in some cases).
The policy of storing locos once they'd reached a certain number of engine hours was flawed too (the most reliable locomotives obviously would run out of hours first, meaning only the "demics" were then available!) but that's another story...
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,543
Location
Redcar
Indeed. If we were going to go down the ROSCO route I think it was an error to not have all the BR stock leased to ROSCOs. That would have prevented the likes of DBS sitting on the 60s for large period of time as a ROSCO would probably have found another operator for them.
 

Blaahh

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2013
Messages
190
I dont get the economic case that its worth DBS letting them rot rather than go to a competitor. Businesses need cash and there is at least 50 * £'000s of locos in Toton - DBS are just bluddy stupid or supremely cash rich if they cant see flogging them before they rust makes sense. Love to see a GBRf one but they have enough 66/7s (+ a 59) for the moment i suspect.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,397
Love to see a GBRf one but they have enough 66/7s (+ a 59) for the moment i suspect.

Am I right in suggesting that GBRf was considering the overhauled Class 60s which were made available for sale?
 

ExRes

Established Member
Joined
16 Dec 2012
Messages
5,762
Location
Back in Sussex
I dont get the economic case that its worth DBS letting them rot rather than go to a competitor. Businesses need cash and there is at least 50 * £'000s of locos in Toton - DBS are just bluddy stupid or supremely cash rich if they cant see flogging them before they rust makes sense. Love to see a GBRf one but they have enough 66/7s (+ a 59) for the moment i suspect.

What is the economic case for selling dozens of locos to competitor companies so that they can take your business away ?, selling them would be the best example of being 'bluddy stupid' imaginable
 

CC 72100

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2012
Messages
3,777
Think of it like playing monopoly when you can trade with other players. You own a square that would complete the set for one of the other players, so they could build houses etc, but you have no plans to do anything with it. They want it; you're not particularly attached it.

However, you don't do a deal with them, even for a short term cash boost, because you know of the damage that your competitor having it and doing something with it could cause you later, and therefore it is better for you to sit tight and not use it instead.
 

al.currie93

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2013
Messages
381
Think of it like playing monopoly when you can trade with other players. You own a square that would complete the set for one of the other players, so they could build houses etc, but you have no plans to do anything with it. They want it; you're not particularly attached it.

However, you don't do a deal with them, even for a short term cash boost, because you know of the damage that your competitor having it and doing something with it could cause you later, and therefore it is better for you to sit tight and not use it instead.

That's the way I see it, not that I agree with it though!
 

richieb1971

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2013
Messages
1,935
Fixing up 30 of them and seeing their successful re-instatement just makes it all the more painful to watch the others die a horrible death.

Can't some of them be moved into the stables the re-instated ones moved out of? I mean, they were under a roof at least.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
Fixing up 30 of them and seeing their successful re-instatement just makes it all the more painful to watch the others die a horrible death.

Can't some of them be moved into the stables the re-instated ones moved out of? I mean, they were under a roof at least.

Because several of the more decrepit examples have had engine parts explosively escape from the box containing them and are fit only, really, as parts donors.
 

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
One of the errors of privatisation was that when the ROSCOs were set up, their role was to lease passenger stock to the franchised operators. The FOCs though (not including later entrants to the market) were given ownership of their locomotives, which lead to EWS (as was) stockpiling large numbers of surplus locos and letting them rot when they could have been offered to other operators (including passenger operators in some cases).
The policy of storing locos once they'd reached a certain number of engine hours was flawed too (the most reliable locomotives obviously would run out of hours first, meaning only the "demics" were then available!) but that's another story...

Hit the nail on the head. The current maddenning situation of finding legal loopholes to procure new Class 66's, and seeing 47's and 56's being brought back into use by major FOC's when there are 60's parked up by the dozen (albeit in need of a Super 60 refurb) was cast many years ago. Easy to say with hindsight, but we could have at least experienced the likes of 58's operating for another 20 years, more 60's in regular use and (maybe?) less 66's on UK rails. It's a pointless argument now though ...... <(
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
I'm not sure you understand how competitive the freight sector is. Everyone is bidding for the same contracts and trying to outdo each other with either price or service enhancements. Freightliner, DBS, Gbrf etc are all just smaller British offshoots of massive, global parent companies so it isn't really an issue to have locomotives in store when your company group is as big as it is.

While we would all like to see locomotives working rather than in store, it simply isn't good business sense to sell off your assets to assist a competitor. Rail freight is a business. It only exists to make a profit and giving away assets to increase the profits of another company is the only 'bluddy stupid' thing about it.

The thing about the 60s is that DBS own them outright. It costs nothing to keep them in store. They aren't paying a leasing fee to see them sit idle. Class 66's and 67's are leased and to have them sit doing nothing is a total waste of money. Having 66's sat in store is like paying for Netflix or Sky and never watching it.

Well said - there are many on this thread who should read and absorb the details!
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
777
Having 66's sat in store is like paying for Netflix or Sky and never watching it.

It's actually worst than that analogy.
You can just write off the cost of Netflix or Sky, not be bothered about the waste of money, or conversely feel stupid or guilty about the waste.
In the commercial world such attitudes and emotions are irrelevant, such a waste translates in to real, serious consequences, i.e. a negative on the balance sheet, that could lead to a worst situation in the long run.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
......Easy to say with hindsight, but we could have at least experienced the likes of 58's operating for another 20 years.....

Have you conveniently forgotten how much costly maintenance requirement was removed along with those old BR locos?
Just look at the savings made by closing down (the now) unnecessary and expensive depots.
Then there is the increased availability of the modern locos and much reduced maintenance and failure down time.

It was mentioned on page 1 of this thread that the 66's have not needed a major overhaul so far. The first ones are almost 17 years old.
How many times would a 58 have had to been through such a major overhaul by now? Never mind the amount of routine maintenance and repair work that would have been needed along the way.

At the end of the day, the locos are just machines. Tools of the trade and assets to be used for carrying out the company's day to day business.
In that regard they are not much different than a company laptop, a fork lift truck or a desk stapler in an office; even if they cost a wee bit more.



 
Last edited:

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
It's actually worst than that analogy.
You can just write off the cost of Netflix or Sky, not be bothered about the waste of money, or conversely feel stupid or guilty about the waste.
In the commercial world such attitudes and emotions are irrelevant, such a waste translates in to real, serious consequences, i.e. a negative on the balance sheet, that could lead to a worst situation in the long run.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you conveniently forgotten how much costly maintenance requirement was removed along with those old BR locos?
Just look at the savings made by closing down (the now) unnecessary and expensive depots.
Then there is the increased availability of the modern locos and much reduced maintenance and failure down time.

It was mentioned on page 1 of this thread that the 66's have not needed a major overhaul so far. The first ones are almost 17 years old.
How many times would a 58 have had to been through such a major overhaul by now? Never mind the amount of routine maintenance and repair work that would have been needed along the way.

At the end of the day, the locos are just machines. Tools of the trade and assets to be used for carrying out the company's day to day business.
In that regard they are not much different than a company laptop, a fork lift truck or a desk stapler in an office; even if they cost a wee bit more.


I'm playing devils advocate ....... so locos should never receive a major overhaul, they should be simply scrapped and replaced with new?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top