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Should the class 60 be fully restored to frontline service?

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DownSouth

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From what I heard back in the early EWS days, words to the effect of "not using British traction" was touted about.
Fair enough. Remember that the new management at the time would have made that decision on two grounds:
1. their extensive experience with superior non-British locos.
2. not being pressured to subsidise poorly performing local industries as is common among government railways around the world.
 
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455driver

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Engine failure was the reason given by EWS why IKB was withdrawn in the first place.

Oh it was definitely engine failure, a conrod went through the side of the block, knocked the engine room door off and dented the bodyside. Quite a spectacular engine failure.
 

CosherB

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Engine failure was the reason given by EWS why IKB was withdrawn in the first place.

My point was, though, does MAN provide sufficient engine parts to enable such a failure to be fixed (ie in this case, a new engine block etc)? I'd say that 60081 would be a long way down the queue for reactivation though .....
 

Peter Mugridge

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My point was, though, does MAN provide sufficient engine parts to enable such a failure to be fixed (ie in this case, a new engine block etc)? I'd say that 60081 would be a long way down the queue for reactivation though .....

If you need to build a whole new engine block wouldn't that fall foul of the emissions regulations?
 

alexl92

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In 2013 (I think), Railways Illustrated reported that DBS had recently stated that all 100 could be reactivated if necessary. Not sure if thats entirely true though.
 

alexl92

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Ooops, sorry, thought I'd kept up with this thread but missed that.
 

CosherB

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If you need to build a whole new engine block wouldn't that fall foul of the emissions regulations?

Why would supplying a short engine fall foul of emissions regs? Component reuse from the dead engine would mean cylinder heads, pistons etc be recovered and used in the replacement engine.
 

DownSouth

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Why would supplying a short engine fall foul of emissions regs? Component reuse from the dead engine would mean cylinder heads, pistons etc be recovered and used in the replacement engine.
If, as Peter quite reasonably speculates, the engine block is defined as being the 'part' which carries the engine's identity (a serial number stamped into the casing?) for the purposes of the regulations, it is the one 'part' which cannot simply be replaced like all the others.

Were the identity of the engine not attached to a major component (ideally the engine block) then the regulations would be completely toothless, the way would be open for companies to buy in brand new non-compliant engines which do not comply with the regulations - so long as they buy them as "replacement parts."

An almost identical effect was previously observed in California, where a now-closed loophole allowed taxes to be evaded and otherwise non-compliant cars imported by "replacing" every part of an older car except the VIN plate.
 

CosherB

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If, as Peter quite reasonably speculates, the engine block is defined as being the 'part' which carries the engine's identity (a serial number stamped into the casing?) for the purposes of the regulations, it is the one 'part' which cannot simply be replaced like all the others.

Were the identity of the engine not attached to a major component (ideally the engine block) then the regulations would be completely toothless, the way would be open for companies to buy in brand new non-compliant engines which do not comply with the regulations - so long as they buy them as "replacement parts."

An almost identical effect was previously observed in California, where a now-closed loophole allowed taxes to be evaded and otherwise non-compliant cars imported by "replacing" every part of an older car except the VIN plate.

Ok, fair enough. Clearly the world is going mad if it's fine and dandy to import decades old loco engines from America and fit them in even older 47s!
 

DownSouth

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Ok, fair enough. Clearly the world is going mad if it's fine and dandy to import decades old loco engines from America and fit them in even older 47s!
Does that still happen? Of course not, that had to stop before the EPA/EU Tier 2 rules came in.

I thought they were new-build 645 engines (which are still being produced today) in the Class 57 locos anyway, not used ones.
 

CosherB

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I thought they were new-build 645 engines (which are still being produced today) in the Class 57 locos anyway, not used ones.

My understanding is that the 57 has a refurbished EMD engine, and reconditioned alterator and traction motors from Class 56s. Definately not new build in any way, shape or form!
 
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455driver

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If you need to build a whole new engine block wouldn't that fall foul of the emissions regulations?

Not for DMU engines it wont, I have seen some 'overhauled' engines where every major component has been changed, block, pistons, heads, fuel pump etc, it was still classed as an 'overhauled' engine.
 

Domh245

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Not for DMU engines it wont, I have seen some 'overhauled' engines where every major component has been changed, block, pistons, heads, fuel pump etc, it was still classed as an 'overhauled' engine.

I suppose that all you need to prove that it's the same engine is the ID plate (or equivalent).
 

455driver

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Ok, fair enough. Clearly the world is going mad if it's fine and dandy to import decades old loco engines from America and fit them in even older 47s!

I thought the engines were older (1950s) than the 47s they went it? (1960s)
 

Elecman

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Simply stamp the new block with the old block number,re use all other parts from the old engine (possibly requiring 1 new piston?) hey presto a refurbed engine
 

SpacePhoenix

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Well surely if it wasn't in service the engine wouldn't have been running??

A diesel loco might have its engine running whilst waiting for it's train to be loaded

Oh yes and under quite a bit of power at the time, lets just say it didn't take the driver long to realise he would need assistance! :lol:

Must have make a hell of a bang when it went. Would it have only been a matter of seconds after it happen that the driver would have suddenly found the engine has lost power?
 

ac6000cw

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I thought the engines were older (1950s) than the 47s they went it? (1960s)

No - the 57/0 use 12-645E3 engines (first introduced in the late 1960s) and the later 57/3 & 57/6 use the more powerful 12-645F3B dating from late 1970s onwards.

The 1950s EMD diesel engine was the 567 series. The engine 'series' numbers relate to the cylinder capacity in cubic inches.

(I've often wondered where the refurbished/remanufactured engines in the 57's came from originally, since there are very few US locomotives using the V12 645s. The V16 has always been the standard EMD freight locomotive engine, there were 8,000+ V16 645 powered locos built for the US market alone versus a relative handful of V12 powered ones).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If, as Peter quite reasonably speculates, the engine block is defined as being the 'part' which carries the engine's identity (a serial number stamped into the casing?) for the purposes of the regulations, it is the one 'part' which cannot simply be replaced like all the others.

Were the identity of the engine not attached to a major component (ideally the engine block) then the regulations would be completely toothless, the way would be open for companies to buy in brand new non-compliant engines which do not comply with the regulations - so long as they buy them as "replacement parts."

It's interesting that one of the major US railroads is rebuilding 25-year old GE Dash-8 locos, upgrading the 7FDL16 diesel engines with electronic fuel injection and split cooling systems to take them from Tier 0 to Tier 2 emissions compliance (and reduce the fuel consumption presumably, so less CO2 as well).

I wonder if this sort of emissions-improvement engine rebuilding/modification is allowed under EU emissions rules ?
 
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DownSouth

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(I've often wondered where the refurbished/remanufactured engines in the 57's came from originally, since there are very few US locomotives using the V12 645s. The V16 has always been the standard EMD freight locomotive engine, there were 8,000+ V16 645 powered locos built for the US market alone versus a relative handful of V12 powered ones).
A decent number of GP and export locos used V12 645 engines.

I would guess that retired GP locos would have been where they came from, as operators could effectively do one-for-two replacement with modern locos in the 3+MW power range with AC traction became available late in the 1990s.
It's interesting that one of the major US railroads is rebuilding 25-year old GE Dash-8 locos, upgrading the 7FDL16 diesel engines with electronic fuel injection and split cooling systems to take them from Tier 0 to Tier 2 emissions compliance (and reduce the fuel consumption presumably, so less CO2 as well).

I wonder if this sort of emissions-improvement engine rebuilding/modification is allowed under EU emissions rules ?
While the EPA emissions standards for non-road engines are copied by the EU, what is not harmonised is the regulations which rule the implementation of the standards. For example, I understand that the EU has deferred implementation of Tier 4 for rail vehicles, while it is now in force for the US domestic market.

Allowing engines to be upgraded to Tier 2 as in the NS rebuild program is a good pragmatic move by the EPA, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were grants available to help facilitate it. The Dash 8 series locos all had "Tier 0" engines (i.e. predating the standards, Tier 1 compliance came with the Dash 9 series) so upgrading them to Tier 2 is still better than having them keep running in original form - the C40-8 locos are very reliable and should be good for another 20+ years so the upgrade should save a lot of emissions over their remaining life.

Interestingly, the same NS upgrade program also includes rebuilding the short hood into a full-width nose.
(and reduce the fuel consumption presumably, so less CO2 as well).
Not necessarily, it depends on which emissions you are trying to control.

In the case of non-road diesel engines, the main effect of Tier 2 is to control the release of particulates. This is done using filters which have a negative effect on performance and therefore on fuel economy.
 

CosherB

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WNXX reporting today that 15 Class 66s from DBS are being stored at Toton. Doubt we'll be seeing many/any more refurbished 60s for DBS use for a while..... :(
 

Kevin_Brum12

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WNXX reporting today that 15 Class 66s from DBS are being stored at Toton. Doubt we'll be seeing many/any more refurbished 60s for DBS use for a while..... :(

Likely those stored 60's will become Christmas trees to keep the fleet going and will the first will be razor blades by New Years Day.
 

RichmondCommu

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A diesel loco might have its engine running whilst waiting for it's train to be loaded

Well yes but it would still be in service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
WNXX reporting today that 15 Class 66s from DBS are being stored at Toton. Doubt we'll be seeing many/any more refurbished 60s for DBS use for a while..... :(

This news will have dozens of teenage boys crying into their sleeps :)
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Realistically with the news that some class 66s are going into store will we be looking at some class 60s being scrapped?
 
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