Siemens' announces the Desiro Verve

[Aictos]

350s currently run between Wolves and Stafford where the linespeed is 125. That said, it wouldn't be an exceptional improvement.

Yes but they don't run any faster then 110mph do they

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Not necessarily. The maximum speed* for non-EPS trains on the WCML is 110mph not because going faster is in some way impossible, but because nobody has wanted to run a non-tilting train any faster badly enough to pay for the necessary investigations and changes. However the amount of curvature may mean it isn't worthwhile trying to increase speeds for non-tilting trains because they'd keep having to slow down for curves.

*Ignoring the short section of 125 near Motherwell, presumably for the benefit of 225s/Voyagers via Edinburgh.

Wasn't their a mention in another thread about the difference in journey time on the WCML between trains with tilt and those without not being too hugely different?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Why are new tilting trains so completely out of the picture..?

 

[Fincra5]

Why are new tilting trains so completely out of the picture..?

I think they were shown to make too little difference to timings to really be worth the smaller cabin space and expense.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I think they were shown to make too little difference to timings to really be worth the smaller cabin space and expense.

Really? Because the Pendolinos seem to save a very large amount of time, and it's important to take into account stock like this - if used by TPE - would be on the WCML for around 200 miles on the windiest section. Plus you have to remember that uniform stock speeds make pathing easier. A third argument is that you can't just regear these to 110mph to prevent performance hits if they're limited to 110mph by not being able to tilt, as they would also be used on the ECML which does indeed have non-tilting 125mph sections. At least, you can't do that unless you want to reduce stock flexibility.

It just seems like not being 125mph capable would be a step backwards in terms of the WCML's capabilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To give you an idea, LM 110mph fasts are timed at 32 minutes northbound to MKC, non stop VTs at 30. It was the proposed but undelivered 140mph running that would have made more difference. The Pendolinos are really overspecced for what they do.

 

[Nymanic]

While I'd much prefer the benefit of a tilting train on the route, Manchester-Scotland journey times have actually reduced under TPE due to improved paths - even with 185 timings. That will do little to bolster the case.

Virgin's services were certainly no quicker than FNW/TPE between Manchester and Lancaster, even with reduced stops. One recollection I have is of an eight-minute scheduled stop at Bolton, while Manchester-Carlisle timings, now 2h or less northbound, could be as high as 2h30. This was Voyager-era.

 

[cjmillsnun]

To give you an idea, LM 110mph fasts are timed at 32 minutes northbound to MKC, non stop VTs at 30. It was the proposed but undelivered 140mph running that would have made more difference. The Pendolinos are really overspecced for what they do.

They are, but they were ordered on a promise of 140MPH running as were the 225s on the ECML. That said, the Pendos come into their own on the northern section of the WCML where they can run faster round the curves.

 

[Fincra5]

Really? Because the Pendolinos seem to save a very large amount of time, and it's important to take into account stock like this - if used by TPE - would be on the WCML for around 200 miles on the windiest section. Plus you have to remember that uniform stock speeds make pathing easier. A third argument is that you can't just regear these to 110mph to prevent performance hits if they're limited to 110mph by not being able to tilt, as they would also be used on the ECML which does indeed have non-tilting 125mph sections. At least, you can't do that unless you want to reduce stock flexibility.

It just seems like not being 125mph capable would be a step backwards in terms of the WCML's capabilities.

Would have been if, as said Class 390s were allowed at their designed 140mph top speed but they aren't. So a few minutes is hardly worth it.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Would have been if, as said Class 390s were allowed at their designed 140mph top speed but they aren't. So a few minutes is hardly worth it.

Is it just a few minutes from Manchester to Glasgow? Plus this feels like a huge step backwards for little real benefit.

Enthusiasts moan about the space on a Pendolino, but as they're very keen to say, the travelling public are far too often on their phones to care.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, the Pendolinos are generally quite popular with passengers, and there are plenty of seats with a view.

 

[bramling]

To be fair, the Pendolinos are generally quite popular with passengers, and there are plenty of seats with a view.

I quite like the Pendolinos, especially in First. However, I do find you have to plan carefully to ensure you get a decent seat. As long as I get one of the suitable seats, I find the view quite adequate, and I'm one that likes to look out of the window. The only thing that can be a pain is the reservations system distorting where people end up sitting, though not quite such an issue in First.

 

[nuneatonmark]

I too like Pendos and I have never understood why the full vision of the West Coast upgrade, including 140mph running, was never completed. Instead we are now spending billions on a completely new line.

 

[Domh245]

Because railtrack, to sum it up in one word. Or, to go slightly more detailed, a very ambitious scheme to install moving block signalling, which at the time was rarely used outside of light metro systems, with huge over spending and the decision to abandon the system in the end. 140mph and moving block wouldn't have solved the capacity issues, but may have delayed it a little bit.

 

[D365]

I too like Pendos and I have never understood why the full vision of the West Coast upgrade, including 140mph running, was never completed. Instead we are now spending billions on a completely new line.

The vision they had proposed for the West Coast Main Line involved moving-block signalling which at the time was far (and probably even now is) too ambitious an upgrade on a mixed-traffic railway, having never been used before beyond of a harmonious metro system - to reemphasise the point made above.

Whether or not the full works programme had been completed, there is no substitute for building a modern compliant railway from scratch. HS2 is not an 'instead of' in any means and we need capacity for the future, to come sooner rather than later.

 

[HSTEd]

I too like Pendos and I have never understood why the full vision of the West Coast upgrade, including 140mph running, was never completed. Instead we are now spending billions on a completely new line.

Because The West Coast upgrade went so overbudget that, adjusted for inflation, it costs as much as HS2-1.

Now if we had gotten HS2 Phase 1 in the nineties... things would be rather different today.

 

[Bringback309s]

Mmmmm... Cambridge / Kings Lynn was always in the IEP plan but that route doesn't get mentioned in the order books for the 800 / 801's.. Plus it does seem a route not suited to this sort of stock. So I'll odds, in its TSGN AGA hybrid livery, they're going for a 377 / 365 replacement on the Great Northern for peaks to Peterborough and fasts to Cambridge and Kings Lynn, and the GEML. Make it a hybrid and it can get to Yarmouth in the summer!

 

[Class377/5]

Mmmmm... Cambridge / Kings Lynn was always in the IEP plan but that route doesn't get mentioned in the order books for the 800 / 801's.. Plus it does seem a route not suited to this sort of stock. So I'll odds, in its TSGN AGA hybrid livery, they're going for a 377 / 365 replacement on the Great Northern for peaks to Peterborough and fasts to Cambridge and Kings Lynn, and the GEML. Make it a hybrid and it can get to Yarmouth in the summer!

IEPs to Kings Lynn was dropped awhile ago. The GN 377s are for Cambridge route with 365s kept for peak only Peterborough services.

 

[Chris125]

I too like Pendos and I have never understood why the full vision of the West Coast upgrade, including 140mph running, was never completed. Instead we are now spending billions on a completely new line.

I'd recommend reading the following two-part Guardian article, which looks at the West Coast Route Modernisation in the context of Railtrack and it's downfall:

The £10bn Rail Crash

"The consultants charged with finding a way to modernise the crumbling west coast railway thought they'd hit on a magic bullet: a white-hot technology that would allow the huge task to be completed for a song. There was just one problem: it had never worked before. Ten years to the day since Railtrack took over our railways - and after a year long investigation - James Meek reveals the saga of incompetence, greed and delusion behind Britain's biggest public works project"
​

 

[Starmill]

Siemens can't win can they? If they have windows all the same size they'll get beaten up for not having seats lining up with the windows. If they design the windows to fit the seating then they get beaten up for making things harder on maintenance!

They could keep all the windows the same size, and maintain window-seat alignment by reducing the seating density. Personally I wouldn't mind that - more luggage space and more legroom. But the TOCs wouldn't like the loss of seating (even though on sensible length trains for the demand on the routes concerned it shouldn't matter) so the crazy window thing goes down a treat for me as a compromise

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Once HS2 starts to come online, will 140mph really even be needed on the WCML? If it isn't when stock with a 125mph would probably do for the WCML with an appropriately lower speed limit for the section where the Pendolinos tilt

 

[Bringback309s]

Another thought that makes this suitable for the GEML is the government backs Norwich in Ninety, so an EMU with wider doors and good acceleration reduces journey and dwell times, consequently helping that become a reality. Would also suit MML to Corby, etc stoppers. Looks good to me. Lets hope they can go to Clacton too and bring back something decent after the 309's went - they might look good in jaffa cake!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Once HS2 starts to come online, will 140mph really even be needed on the WCML? If it isn't when stock with a 125mph would probably do for the WCML with an appropriately lower speed limit for the section where the Pendolinos tilt

Tilt is really not horrendously expensive. It especially won't be in 2030 or whatever.

That's aside from the fact that ERTMS will be onstream at that point and likely deployed on the WCML, which should allow for 140mph running.

 

[Wivenswold]

Another thought that makes this suitable for the GEML is the government backs Norwich in Ninety, so an EMU with wider doors and good acceleration reduces journey and dwell times, consequently helping that become a reality. Would also suit MML to Corby, etc stoppers. Looks good to me. Lets hope they can go to Clacton too and bring back something decent after the 309's went - they might look good in jaffa cake!

Totally agree about bringing back long-distance units for Clacton. A 90 minute journey on 321s and 360s isn't a patch on the 309s.

 

[Haydn1971]

Totally agree about bringing back long-distance units for Clacton. A 90 minute journey on 321s and 360s isn't a patch on the 309s.

You want to try a Pacer on a 90 minute journey !

 

[Wivenswold]

You want to try a Pacer on a 90 minute journey !

Good point, can I pass on that one?

 

[40129]

Looks like both Essex and the North were short changed in that case as personally I would much prefer 90 minutes in almost any 1st generation DMU (cl-115-118 and 121-122 excepted) to a Pacer and in a cl-309 to a cl-321 or 360

 

[Wivenswold]

Looks like both Essex and the North were short changed in that case as personally I would much prefer 90 minutes in almost any 1st generation DMU (cl-115-118 and 121-122 excepted) to a Pacer and in a cl-309 to a cl-321 or 360

Ah, but the 309s had a griddle car.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Maybe CAF and Hitachi will also come along with solutions to each new UK train requirement. Alsthom and Breda are conspicuous by their absence from the UK market.

Yes, and for a damn good reason. Their products are shocking!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Totally agree about bringing back long-distance units for Clacton. A 90 minute journey on 321s and 360s isn't a patch on the 309s.

Maybe they'd been better off order an AC version of a 444 at the time. What's the stopping pattern like on the line? The stopping pattern might have pushed them towards going for a "commuter" door pattern (1/3 and 2/3 doors)