Signals to driver when train starts off

[First class]

Yet the train will be waiting for exactly the same time a couple hundred yards down the same track. Gotta love the bureaucracy!

(Okay, that makes sense, but it still seems a little odd!)

But said train then doesn't have to cover the station-signal distance. Once the signal clears it can go straight away to the next stop. Why wait at A, when you can wait at B, which is closer to your destination of C?

You also haven't got passengers trying to get on a (delayed) train in a platform, as you're trying to leave, when you're a few hundred yards down the track.

 

[Domh245]

Also have to remember that if it is at a station, once the signal is cleared, the doors have to be closed, platform checks carried out, and then 2 on the buzzer, which adds about half a minute when done thoroughly.

Also the slightly optimistic concept of: if you've dispatched the train and it starts to move, the signal might clear before the train has stopped at the signal, so the driver can just open it up and accelerate off, saving time and fuel

 

[8J]

That's actually quite concerning in a way...

No it isn't... A lot of guards will ask the driver whether they want 6 or 2 and most drivers will say 2. It is not a starting signal so it is not the concern of the guard.

 

[Crossover]

At Newton Le Willows we did stop just down the line. Just seemed a little odd as I was of the impression the driver repeat back the same to ensure an understanding being reached

Mirfield p3 where the signal is probably 80m off the platform end I've seen two things happen when the signal is red. One was the train pulled off and stopped just off the platform. The other seemed to be the driver and guard had come to an understanding that they'd wait in the platform until it cleared (though it had cleared when they arrived)

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think what Neil Williams might have been worried about is the driver repeating a different signal to what was received - if intentional couldn't this mask an intermittent problem with the buzzers?

 

[Pigeon]

The Guard shouldn't give the Driver the right away (2 on the buzzer) with the signal protecting the single line ahead displaying a danger aspect (red). So to give "draw up" (6 on the buzzer) was correct: i.e. it's O.K. to start the train, but also reminding the Driver of the red signal.

Old style DMU at Droitwich, signal at end of platform is at danger.

Guard: bzzt bzzt
Driver: bzzzt

(ten second pause)

Guard: bzzt bzzt
Driver (annoyed): BZZZZZZZZT

(longer pause)
(signal clears)

Guard (sheepishly): bzt bzt
Driver sets off without acknowledging.

 

[the sniper]

Why can't they communicate via intercom rather than use an antiquated system like this?

Because it'd be a much, much worse system. Far less clear and frankly unworkable on some units.

Re 6 or 2, we've got stations where signals aren't starting signal but are still pretty close or just around a corner with a banner repeater off the end of the platform. As I normally give a pretty quick two, at these stations against Danger I'd normally give a long, slow 2 to differentiate from a normal ready to start. Often I'll wait a bit longer in the platform than normal though to give it a chance to clear. I also give a slower 2 when leaving against a single yellow, particularly at a location where there's a local instruction about what speed should be maintained due to a SPAD risk at the next signal.

 

[matchmaker]

As one who has an interest in signalling, the use of 6 would wake me up immediately!

(6 beats on the block bells = Obstruction danger)

 

[Tomnick]

As one who has an interest in signalling, the use of 6 would wake me up immediately!

(6 beats on the block bells = Obstruction danger)

...and far, far quicker to send than a telephone message!

The same goes for routine stuff too, though. I can, and regularly (necessarily) do, send and receive bell signals with adjacent signal boxes whilst engaged in conversation with another party. We'd never get anything done if we had to use the telephone instead of bells - fortunately, I've only ever suffered a bell failure at a relatively quiet time, thankfully!

 

[craigybagel]

Interestingly enough whilst there are alternative methods we can use to signal ready to start should there be a problem with the bell/buzzer, using the cab to cab phone is not one of them - at my TOC at least it is in fact specifically forbidden.

With regards to waiting on the platform for the signal to clear, sometimes that isn't an option. For example , for some reason if you have 4 or more cars at Leominster on the Up, the signal just after the station won't clear. Normally I'll have spoken to the driver in advance to ask what they want to do but if not I just give six.

Whilst technically if it's not a starting signal you're within your rights to give two against a red, it the driver has a SPAD no one is going to be thanking you. It only takes a couple of seconds to press the green button 4 more times!

 

[D1009]

I'm just pondering how far back these buzzer codes date? I presume to the widespread introduction of DMUs in the 1950s. I'm reminded of a journey I made as a teenager from Manchester Central to Liverpool Central more than 50 years ago shortly after the replacement of the steam hauled non corridor stock by the Derby Suburban 4 car non gangwayed DMUs. I always insisted on getting the front seats for a forward view, and this was a peak hour working formed of 8 cars. We stopped at a few more places than the usual Warrington Central and what was I think then called Farnworth for Widnes. At the other stops the driver was getting very irritated by the number of times he got 6 on the buzzer to draw up. I presume the system was that if no-one was leaning out of the windows of the non platformed coaches at the back of the train, the guard just gave 2 on the buzzer and away!

 

[Crossover]

Interestingly enough whilst there are alternative methods we can use to signal ready to start should there be a problem with the bell/buzzer, using the cab to cab phone is not one of them - at my TOC at least it is in fact specifically forbidden.

With regards to waiting on the platform for the signal to clear, sometimes that isn't an option. For example , for some reason if you have 4 or more cars at Leominster on the Up, the signal just after the station won't clear. Normally I'll have spoken to the driver in advance to ask what they want to do but if not I just give six.

Whilst technically if it's not a stating signal you're within your rights to give two against a red, it the driver has a SPAD no one is going to be thanking you. It only takes a couple of seconds to press the green button 4 more times!

Thanks for that insight about when they're not starting signals

As for the fallbacks, indeed I watched a flag despatch of a HST at Grantham a year or so ago with the platform staff, driver and guard (thank goodness for droplights!) working in tandem. If I recall correctly, the guard waved the flag out of a window and the driver, stood at the door, waved anther back before heading back to the controls - I can't remember if the horn was also sounded before moving off (it was about 4 in the afternoon)

 

[edwin_m]

I'm just pondering how far back these buzzer codes date? I presume to the widespread introduction of DMUs in the 1950s. I'm reminded of a journey I made as a teenager from Manchester Central to Liverpool Central more than 50 years ago shortly after the replacement of the steam hauled non corridor stock by the Derby Suburban 4 car non gangwayed DMUs. I always insisted on getting the front seats for a forward view, and this was a peak hour working formed of 8 cars. We stopped at a few more places than the usual Warrington Central and what was I think then called Farnworth for Widnes. At the other stops the driver was getting very irritated by the number of times he got 6 on the buzzer to draw up. I presume the system was that if no-one was leaning out of the windows of the non platformed coaches at the back of the train, the guard just gave 2 on the buzzer and away!

I would think it goes back a lot further on EMUs, though they usually use a single stroke bell rather than a buzzer (probably because of less background noise).

 

[Dave1987]

The reason the cab to cab isn't allowed to be used for safety critical communications is that it is not recorded by the OTMR on a lot of units so if anything went wrong the download wouldn't show if the driver had received the appropriate message from the guard. The bell buzzer is recorded on the OTMR, same as the horn which is why they are allowed to be used for safety critical comms

 

[Smudger105e]

Certainly the 1951 stock EMUs on the Southern (EPBS etc) had start bells fitted, and all 1957, 1963 and 1966 stock was also fitted.

 

[ComUtoR]

The reason the cab to cab isn't allowed to be used for safety critical communications is that it is not recorded by the OTMR on a lot of units so if anything went wrong the download wouldn't show if the driver had received the appropriate message from the guard. The bell buzzer is recorded on the OTMR, same as the horn which is why they are allowed to be used for safety critical comms

Sorry but I cannot accept this point. There are many rules and regs that allow cab to cab communication that isn't recorded by the OTMR. As long as guard/driver or whoever come to a "clear understanding" then its ok. Rules for dispatch are provided of course and need to be followed but never in all my years has it been because of it being recorded on the OTMR. OTMR is relatively new. No doubt there is some group standard to say what is mandated to be recorded.

Quite a few of my daily tasks are never recorded whatsoever.

 

[Dave1987]

Sorry but I cannot accept this point. There are many rules and regs that allow cab to cab communication that isn't recorded by the OTMR. As long as guard/driver or whoever come to a "clear understanding" then its ok. Rules for dispatch are provided of course and need to be followed but never in all my years has it been because of it being recorded on the OTMR. OTMR is relatively new. No doubt there is some group standard to say what is mandated to be recorded.

Quite a few of my daily tasks are never recorded whatsoever.

Well that is what I have been told by my DM. It also makes sense. If you think its something different then that's up to you.

 

[ComUtoR]

Well that is what I have been told by my DM. It also makes sense. If you think its something different then that's up to you.

Bell buzzer has been there well before OTMR. The rules simply haven't changed. I'm guessing your a Driver from "DM" So your well aware of the volume of safety critical communication that doesn't get recorded.

I'll look through my rulebook later an try and pull out where it says "clear understanding" I'm certainly not aware of any rule being used specifically because it shows on a download. We are governed by group standards if its required by the OTMR no doubt it will be in there.

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry but I cannot accept this point. There are many rules and regs that allow cab to cab communication that isn't recorded by the OTMR. As long as guard/driver or whoever come to a "clear understanding" then its ok. Rules for dispatch are provided of course and need to be followed but never in all my years has it been because of it being recorded on the OTMR. OTMR is relatively new. No doubt there is some group standard to say what is mandated to be recorded.

Quite a few of my daily tasks are never recorded whatsoever.

I'm with ComUtoR on this one. Apart from anything else, OTMR won't pick up some of the other methods of dispatch either (flags and verbal).

That said, with almost any rule on the railway if you ask the reason for it you can get lots of different answers.....

 

[Tomnick]

Quite a few of my safety-critical comms are face-to-face, including some (not very often, admittedly) conversations with drivers - I've never received any complaints about it, and indeed prefer it to the telephone where possible, as it enables a much clearer understanding to be reached.

 

[ComUtoR]

RSSB Page 5 of 10 Railway Group Standard GM/RT/2472 Issue 2 June 2014

Requirements for Data Recorders on Trains
(http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_...ck/Railway Group Standards/GMRT2472 Iss 2.pdf)

Part 2 Requirements for Data Recorders on Trains - Information to be Recorded
2.1 Information to be recorded
2.1.1 Data to be recorded
2.1.1.1 In addition to the requirements of clause 3.1.1.2, as a minimum, the following data where available at the data recorder position, shall be recorded:

a) The passing of signals at danger or ‘end of movement authority’ without
authority (where such data is available on the train).
b) Initiation of a brake application by Control, Command and Signalling (CCS)
train protection systems and the source of that initiation, including such
systems as European Train Control System (ETCS), Automatic Warning System (AWS), Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) or mechanical train stops.
c) For each braking demand, the level being demanded (full service, emerergency etc) and from where it is being demanded.
d) The means of brake demand transmission along the train (for example,
brake pipe, train control lines for brakes).
e) Brake level achieved, for example brake cylinder pressure.
f) Traction demand, the level being demanded and from where it is being
demanded.
g) Traction transmission along the train (for example, train control lines for full tractive power demand).
h) Traction level achieved.
i) Speed at which the train is running.
j) Initiation of a brake application by on board safety systems, including those related to driver activity monitoring, and the source of initiation.
k) Any isolation or overriding of the on board train control (signalling) systems or other safety system.
l) Operation of the audible warning device (horn).
m) Operation of passenger or train crew door controls (release, closure etc).
n) Passenger door command transmission along the train (for example, train
control lines for doors).
o) Passenger door status.
p) Safety detection by on board systems (for example, hot axle box detectors, fire alarms).
q) Activation of the passenger alarm and the location on the train where
initiated.
r) Operation by the driver of the passenger alarm acknowledgment

I hope that helps.

 

[Dave1987]

I'm really not bothered whether or not you agree with me or not. It's what I have been told. If/When I get asked on a summary assessment why you use bell buzzer codes for driver to guard safety critical comms that's the reason I will give.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm with ComUtoR on this one. Apart from anything else, OTMR won't pick up some of the other methods of dispatch either (flags and verbal).

That said, with almost any rule on the railway if you ask the reason for it you can get lots of different answers.....

For flags, dispatch bats and hand lamps you have CCTV on stations that records what happens. But yes I agree you that there are a variety of reasons given for certain rules.

 

[Smudger105e]

It doesn't say start bells/buzzers on that list...

 

[QueensCurve]

I always think that the two beeps repeated back by the driver on units such a sprinters is a bit of an anachronism these days. It's like a carry over from steam days when the driver would sound the whistle to acknowledge the green flag.

I sometimes wonder if it's to tell the guard "Yes, it's me driving, I havn't been kidnapped and the train isn't being driven by aliens who don't know the code"!

Is it not a readback so that the Guard can confirm the driver has the signal correct? If the driver gave back 2 bells when the RA had not in fact been intended, the Guard can issue a 1 bell (stop) to remedy the situation.

 

[Crossover]

The other thing that the bell/buzzer prevents is mis-hearing - certainly over a phone line it is very easy to mishear an instruction or such and having to confirm/re-confirm just delays matters or causes even more confusion. Bells are non-ambiguous and I guess is a reason they are used in signal boxes too

 

[30907]

Certainly the 1951 stock EMUs on the Southern (EPBS etc) had start bells fitted

They were the first on the SR. Older units required the green flag.

 

[Smudger105e]

They were the first on the SR. Older units required the green flag.

Indeed. The SUBs were still in service when I started [emoji15] and they needed flags.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I always wondered why it was only one bell to start on the underground but two on the main line and also which was the better of the two.
I reckon there are arguments for and against one and two bells as a signal to start.
With a two bell to start signal you may hear one and assume you misheard the first - with one if you hear a second you would assume it as an improper signal and not move. am sure there are numerous other arguments for and against two bells over one and vice versa.
There was never a driver's acknowledgement of the signal to start on the underground and I don't believe there was on numerous BR EMUs either (in the distant past that is).

 

[Smudger105e]

On the SR slammers, 2 on the bell was often acknowledged by 2 on the Loudaphone buzzer. Not sure if this was an informal arrangement though.

 

[wensley]

I was under the impression that as with GC's 180's the driver opens the door but the Guard/Senior Conductor is in charge of closing them, then giving the signal to the driver the it is okay to depart... (ready to be proved wrong )

That is correct. Believe this is standard for all Class 180s.

Driver has control over SDO and door release.
The local panels have local door and close door functions for the Guard, who will then pass the ready to start signal to the Driver.

The Driver must also return the SDO to the 'Normal' position having released doors or traction interlock is not gained.