Sir Michael Fallon resigns as Defence Secretary

[Kite159]

I know you shouldn't judge a book by its cover and all that, but really?

That isn't the face of someone I trust making decisions that potentially put our armed forces at risk.

The sort of face of a young officer fresh out of Sandhurst who will soon get to know the meaning of hard work when he gets sent to the tank park to oversee security of the toolbox

 

[Howardh]

His face looks familiar...has anyone seen Joe Root around today??

 

[Busaholic]

His face looks familiar...has anyone seen Joe Root around today??

Would a Ben Stokes lookalike have inspired more confidence?!

 

[Cowley]

Would a Ben Stokes lookalike have inspired more confidence?!

Definitely. Ben’s clearly a man who knows a thing or two about fighting.

 

[deltic]

As usual there are some completely innocent "allegations" being levelled. The Sun has a handy spreadsheet.


So what?

The women (yes, it is women who contribute to this closed WhatsApp group) who are conflating stuff like rape or sexual assault with incidents like "has sex with men" need to f*** off. It really makes me quite angry.

The list includes a number of female MPs. It is a mixture of consensual relationships, inappropriate behaviours whatever that might cover and then some more serious stuff - apparently a certain cabinet minister has a non-disclosure agreement with a researcher. There a number of stories circulating about Michael Fallon including one stating he was drunk at an official function and had to be physically separated from a female KGB agent by his minder a few years ago. Separating truth from fiction however is another thing entirely.

 

[AlterEgo]

The list includes a number of female MPs. It is a mixture of consensual relationships, inappropriate behaviours whatever that might cover and then some more serious stuff - apparently a certain cabinet minister has a non-disclosure agreement with a researcher. There a number of stories circulating about Michael Fallon including one stating he was drunk at an official function and had to be physically separated from a female KGB agent by his minder a few years ago. Separating truth from fiction however is another thing entirely.

The conflation between consensual relationships and actual sexual abuse on that list is really quite worrying. I’m peeved that someone who has consensual sex with men appears on the same list as people who have committed actual crimes.

The number of times “inappropriate” comes up too is hardly helpful. I mean, what’s their definition? Are we talking about suggestive talk, propositioning for sex, or something worse?

 

[Howardh]

Much as I'd like every single MP who backs Brexit thrown out of Parliament (and the country) for once turning up with their flies undone, I'm afraid I can't understand all this hysterical nonsense. If something happened ten years ago that you didn't like - why not deal with it then?? These aren't school kids who could worry about bullying if they "grass" - these are fully grown up (in body anyway) adults who should be able to deal with a bit of unwarranted attention. If anyone does anything illegal, different matter, but that should be a job for the courts to decide. Rant over.

 

[deltic]

Much as I'd like every single MP who backs Brexit thrown out of Parliament (and the country) for once turning up with their flies undone, I'm afraid I can't understand all this hysterical nonsense. If something happened ten years ago that you didn't like - why not deal with it then?? These aren't school kids who could worry about bullying if they "grass" - these are fully grown up (in body anyway) adults who should be able to deal with a bit of unwarranted attention. If anyone does anything illegal, different matter, but that should be a job for the courts to decide. Rant over.

Parliament is not like most work places - there is no HR department to complain to - researchers are employed by the MPs - complain about your boss and you are likely to lose your job - who is going to believe a 20yr old against Sir Estlishment

 

[Howardh]

Parliament is not like most work places - there is no HR department to complain to - researchers are employed by the MPs - complain about your boss and you are likely to lose your job - who is going to believe a 20yr old against Sir Estlishment

So if someone's seriously sexually assaulted they are prevented from contacting the police? Don't need a HR for that!! Mind you, if they did they have to prove it, rather than running off to the Sundays with the "oh he looked at me funny once" line. So we might be able to sift the serious from the tedious.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

So if someone's seriously sexually assaulted they are prevented from contacting the police? Don't need a HR for that!! Mind you, if they did they have to prove it, rather than running off to the Sundays with the "oh he looked at me funny once" line. So we might be able to sift the serious from the tedious.

I'm not quite sure that you get what is happening! Put yourself in the place of a young female (or male) and ask yourself if you would like to have your bottom pinched, be on the receiving end of suggestive comments, get touched inappropriately etc etc all by someone who might be 30 or 40 years your senior! I certainly wouldn't have wanted it! I think we need more women on this forum to comment.

 

[Bromley boy]

As usual there are some completely innocent "allegations" being levelled. The Sun has a handy spreadsheet.


So what?

The women (yes, it is women who contribute to this closed WhatsApp group) who are conflating stuff like rape or sexual assault with incidents like "has sex with men" need to f*** off. It really makes me quite angry.

The allegation in the spreadsheet that someone "fornicated with male researchers + had sexual relations with [redacted]" is interesting.

It strikes me as a peculiarly moralistic choice of words, and smacks of judgemental, finger-wagging disapproval of this person's behaviour, rather than a genuine allegation of anything inappropriate or illegal. Why is it relevant that the researchers were male?!

As often with these things there's is a danger that it degenerates into a witch hunt and the genuine allegations, such as there are, are simply drowned out.

 

[deltic]

I'm not quite sure that you get what is happening! Put yourself in the place of a young female (or male) and ask yourself if you would like to have your bottom pinched, be on the receiving end of suggestive comments, get touched inappropriately etc etc all by someone who might be 30 or 40 years your senior! I certainly wouldn't have wanted it! I think we need more women on this forum to comment.

Exactly - its not the sort of thing you would go to the police with but if you had a HR department you would report it and the person responsible would have to answer for their actions.

The allegation in the spreadsheet that someone "fornicated with male researchers + had sexual relations with [redacted]" is interesting.

It strikes me as a peculiarly moralistic choice of words, and smacks of judgemental, finger-wagging disapproval of this person's behaviour, rather than a genuine allegation of anything inappropriate or illegal. Why is it relevant that the researchers were male?!

As often with these things there's is a danger that it degenerates into a witch hunt and the genuine allegations, such as there are, are simply drowned out.

In this case the MP referred to is female - the unknown in a lot of these allegations is whether people in power used that power to get what they wanted in which case they need to be dealt with, are they opening themselves up to blackmail or as you say if it is entirely consensual whats it got to do with anyone else

 

[Howardh]

I'm not quite sure that you get what is happening! Put yourself in the place of a young female (or male) and ask yourself if you would like to have your bottom pinched, be on the receiving end of suggestive comments, get touched inappropriately etc etc all by someone who might be 30 or 40 years your senior! I certainly wouldn't have wanted it! I think we need more women on this forum to comment.

If it were me on the receiving end they would get a look which told them that was the first and last time.

 

[Bromley boy]

In this case the MP referred to is female - the unknown in a lot of these allegations is whether people in power used that power to get what they wanted in which case they need to be dealt with, are they opening themselves up to blackmail or as you say if it is entirely consensual whats it got to do with anyone else

I think we need to be very, very careful here.

If illegal acts have been committed, of course they must be fully investigated, but as a society we are generally agreed that sexual acts that take place between consenting adults are acceptable.

It becomes a lot more complicated when you try to go beyond what is legal or illegal and start moralising about said acts. Yes dirty old men try to sleep with attractive young women (and boys), but some attractive young women (and boys) have also been known to sleep with the boss to try to get ahead.

It becomes even more difficult when you’re dealing with a tidal wave or “he said she said” type allegations about events that (may or may not have) happened years ago. It’s impossible to prove a negative and, sadly, many of the allegations in that spreadsheet smack much more of moral disapproval than a suggestion of anything illegal.

 

[deltic]

If it were me on the receiving end they would get a look which told them that was the first and last time.

Most people report that their first reaction is to freeze from shock - that they must have misunderstood what is happening to them -that they then want to get away as fast as possible - giving macho looks to your very senior boss 30 years older than you is probably the last thing you are ever going to do - remember this is the person who could make or break your career. Upset them and there is probably no second chance.

 

[CarlSilva]

I don't care whose done what, or not. As long as it gets rid of the tories. I hate em.

 

[Dai Corner]

Most people report that their first reaction is to freeze from shock - that they must have misunderstood what is happening to them -that they then want to get away as fast as possible - giving macho looks to your very senior boss 30 years older than you is probably the last thing you are ever going to do - remember this is the person who could make or break your career. Upset them and there is probably no second chance.

On the other hand, we now seem to be in a situation where the junior employee or former employee can destroy the boss's career and reputation by recalling an incident or conversation many years ago to which they showed no sign of offence or objection at the time but now deem 'inappropriate'.

 

[deltic]

In most instances it seems that a number of people have made similar complaints so they are not one off instances. Also thankfully times change - 30 years ago few people spoke up about racist or homophobic comments at work now they are regarded by most people as unacceptable. The point is that they weren't acceptable 30 years ago but if you spoke out against them you would have been ostracised. The same open sexist behaviour was also stamped out decades ago in most workplaces but not apparently in Parliament. a number of people did complain at the time but nothing was done - it's only when a few brave souls come forward publicly do others also realise they are not the only ones who were harassed and also speak out. The same pattern occurred with various sex abuse scandals e.g. JImmy Saville.

 

[Dai Corner]

I just seem to have lived in a different world. Back in the day I would have been informed in no uncertain terms (up to and including a slap in the face) if I'd overstepped the mark and strayed from banter or flirting to something the woman found unacceptable. The matter would be considered closed and wouldn't happen again. Women would warn each other about men with 'wandering hands' or 'creeps'.

Genuine questions: Doesn't this happen now? Do offendees feel they have to report things rather than dealing with them themselves?

 

[najaB]

Do offendees feel they have to report things rather than dealing with them themselves?

The problem with the 'slap the creep' system is that the creep will keep trying until (s)he finds someone who doesn't slap. That might be because they were a willing participant, or it might be that they weren't confident enough to slap the creep.

 

[deltic]

I just seem to have lived in a different world. Back in the day I would have been informed in no uncertain terms (up to and including a slap in the face) if I'd overstepped the mark and strayed from banter or flirting to something the woman found unacceptable. The matter would be considered closed and wouldn't happen again. Women would warn each other about men with 'wandering hands' or 'creeps'.

Genuine questions: Doesn't this happen now? Do offendees feel they have to report things rather than dealing with them themselves?

I have no idea how old you are or what jobs you have done but if in your first ever job when you were in your late teens/early 20s trying to make a good impression and the company boss who happened to be a Sir and a highly respected member of the community pinched your bum while you were bent over the photocopying machine would you have turned round and slapped his face knowing if you did you would be fired. This is all about people with immense power knowing they can get away with it and not caring if you do say no.

What you describe does happen but in situations where there is either not the difference in power between the two parties or a mechanism such as a HR dept where people can turn to to protect them

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't care whose done what, or not. As long as it gets rid of the tories. I hate em.

Plenty of skeletons in Labour’s closet, too, including allegations of rape from party activist, Bex Bailey, who (allegedly) was encouraged to cover it up and not pursue the allegation.

Something doesn’t stack up about that story, to me at least...

 

[Dai Corner]

The problem with the 'slap the creep' system is that the creep will keep trying until (s)he finds someone who doesn't slap. That might be because they were a willing participant, or it might be that they weren't confident enough to slap the creep.

Or she tolerated it as her career was then more important to her than her dignity? Or she pretended to ignore it but saved up the memory for possible future use?

Not blaming or defending either side. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind not reporting anything until years later.

I have no idea how old you are or what jobs you have done but if in your first ever job when you were in your late teens/early 20s trying to make a good impression and the company boss who happened to be a Sir and a highly respected member of the community pinched your bum while you were bent over the photocopying machine would you have turned round and slapped his face knowing if you did you would be fired. This is all about people with immense power knowing they can get away with it and not caring if you do say no.

What you describe does happen but in situations where there is either not the difference in power between the two parties or a mechanism such as a HR dept where people can turn to to protect them

My first ever job interview in 1979. The HR man met me in reception and put his arm round my shoulders in the lift. I moved away, giving what was probably a surprised look. Nothing more was said and I got the job.

Once I'd been there a while I found out he was as openly gay as anyone was at that time.

 

[Butts]

When I was a young Manager in the Entertainment Industry in the late seventies/ early eighties relationships between management (mainly men) and staff (mainly women) were forbidden.

As you can imagine in an environment where long hours were the norm and there was little opportunity to meet "outsiders" the whole place was a hotbed of illicit fornication. Believe me some of the married women were the worst - terrifying to a young barely out of short pants male.

The problem used to arise when two lovers fell out. A situation could develop where a managers authority could be completely undermined by "tittle tattle". This I suspect was the prime reason for not permitting official liasons.

I have interviewed women who turned up with "three buttons undone" projecting their ample mammaries into your sphere of vision. This of course had no influence on your decision to employ them. And yes, you would ask if they were planning to have a baby any time soon. When you used to ring down for a coffee they would break their necks racing each other to be up with it first. Nothing was to much trouble.

It was all about power as has been intimated at in other cases that have come to light. We used to call them "Dinner Suit Chasers" in honour of the attire we donned in the evening. Yes I used to slap womens backsides and fondle their boobs with no fear of retribution in front of other staff. I was subjected to the odd "crotch grab" along the way.

Was it wrong ? - possibly but it was the way it was at that time.

My god - it was a blast !!

 

[Bromley boy]

When I was a young Manager in the Entertainment Industry in the late seventies/ early eighties relationships between management (mainly men) and staff (mainly women) were forbidden.

As you can imagine in an environment where long hours were the norm and there was little opportunity to meet "outsiders" the whole place was a hotbed of illicit fornication. Believe me some of the married women were the worst - terrifying to a young barely out of short pants male.

The problem used to arise when two lovers fell out. A situation could develop where a managers authority could be completely undermined by "tittle tattle". This I suspect was the prime reason for not permitting official liasons.

I have interviewed women who turned up with "three buttons undone" projecting their ample mammaries into your sphere of vision. This of course had no influence on your decision to employ them. And yes, you would ask if they were planning to have a baby any time soon. When you used to ring down for a coffee they would break their necks racing each other to be up with it first. Nothing was to much trouble.

It was all about power as has been intimated at in other cases that have come to light. We used to call them "Dinner Suit Chasers" in honour of the attire we donned in the evening. Yes I used to slap womens backsides and fondle their boobs with no fear of retribution in front of other staff. I was subjected to the odd "crotch grab" along the way.

Was it wrong ? - possibly but it was the way it was at that time.

My god - it was a blast !!

Have you spent Sunday afternoon in the pub?

Love it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Some of the comments posted on here are absolutely astonishing. If you've done something wrong you have to be punished and when the incident took place is completely irrelevant.

 

[Bromley boy]

Some of the comments posted on here are absolutely astonishing. If you've done something wrong you have to be punished and when the incident took place is completely irrelevant.

But how do you define “something wrong”?

If the behaviour isn’t illegal, doesn’t it just become a moral judgement? Ideas of what is morally acceptable change over time.

 

[Butts]

Have you spent Sunday afternoon in the pub?

Love it.

Unfortunately not, just on the "waccy baccy" if you include Benson and Hedges Gold in that category.

I'm glad you mentioned alcohol as at the end of the evening there was a lot of that involved (dispensed free - creative accounting) which probably added to the various indiscretions.

 

[RichmondCommu]

But how do you define “something wrong”?

If the behaviour isn’t illegal, doesn’t it just become a moral judgement? Ideas of what is morally acceptable change over time.

That kind of behaviour wasn't morally acceptable 30 years a go. Instead it was a case of bullies assuming that no one would dare challenge them.

 

[najaB]

That kind of behaviour wasn't morally acceptable 30 years a go. Instead it was a case of bullies assuming that no one would dare challenge them.

It has never been morally acceptable to persist in sexual advances after someone has made it clear they aren't wanted, but it has been tolerated in society for a lot longer than it should have been.