Sleepers

[MidnightFlyer]

Is there any case for reintroducing XC Sleepers, or creating Saturday night Sleepers? Also general comments on Sleeper services

 

[Failed Unit]

Is there any case for reintroducing XC Sleepers, or creating Saturday night Sleepers? Also general comments on Sleeper services

I don't think so to be honest, I don't know how much subsidy the Scotrail / FGW sleepers take up, but this is with existing stock. I can't see a new build ever been justified. Yes it is wonderful that you can travel overnight between London and Scotland, but I have doubts about the economic viability of the service. You need a fairly steady route. Again look at the London - Scotland. They have many diversion routes which make little difference to the journey time. (ECML, WCML via Manchester, Warrington, Birmingham, Northampton etc). The Cross country ones would be more restricted in that sense. If you did Edinburgh - Newcastle - Leeds - Birmingham - Bristol - Plymouth - Penzance for example, you would be going through some places at silly hours in the morning something that would not be popular with passengers.

On the current sleepers I am not sure how popular Carlisle stop is, but if I am getting on a Stirling and off at Preston I often think what is the point?

I don't think the demand exists for a Scotland - South West none stop service, you would be talking about £100 per stay so airlines and B&B are back in competing range.

 

[rail-britain]

reintroducing XC Sleepers

I would agree there may be demand in the summer, but the current timetables do not really allow for this
However, I do not see why they could not operated for parts of a timetable, say March to October
I hated working on these sleepers, there were hardly ever any people on them
Equally, I don't think the fares could compete with the airlines now

creating Saturday night Sleepers?

These turned into a joke in the 1990s before they were withdrawn
They had to depart earlier to take into account diversions
Virtually always diverted on to other lines, delayed further due to blockades, awaiting trained staff, and so on
There were also quite often loco changes due to being taken off the electrified line or the power being switched off
Finally, customer numbers were very low, the word had already got round by then "Why do you want to travel on Saturday night, do you really want to get there?"
I remember one Aberdeen sleeper leaving with NO passengers and arriving into Euston with NO passengers!

general comments on Sleeper services

The ScotRail sleepers need to have the Mark 2 coaches replaced, they are showing their age and the noise from the brakes on a night train is unacceptable now
However, for the long term new rolling stock has to be considered, although there is more chance of the entire operation being terminated
Apart from that, having now used it as a customer rather than working on it, it has slightly improved to what it used to be
Working on it, all I can remember are all the faults and breakdowns!

I was also impressed with the FGW sleepers
It's almost a cross between a local service between Penzance and Plymouth, after that it is very quiet

 

[Greenback]

The great advantage with sleepers on any route is that you can do a full day's work, travel during non productive sleep time and then have a full day ahead of you when you arrive.

To do this from Scotland, say, to the South West you'd either have to find a flight allowing you to get to the airport and check in before the flight, and to arrive at a still reasonable hour. Alternatively, you could get up in the middle of the night and get a flight to get you there for breakfast. When it comes to leisure travel I think there is definitely some sort of a market, especially at weekends, but whether it's large enough to make a profit the way the industry is currently structured seems unlikely!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have been told that the trouble with Saturday night ones is more to do with engineering works than anything else.

The Carlisle stop: I'd probably use it if they dropped / collected a carriage there; as it is it means getting turfed off the train in the very small hours so while I would very much prefer to get to Carlisle via the Sleeper, I don't - even if it means losing a day and then shelling out for a night in a hotel there.

New stock - I posted an outline suggestion, complete with a sketch of the design of it, recently on another thread. unfortunately i can't remember now which thread it was. if I find it, I'll edit this post with a link unless the moderators find it and edit it in first!

 

[rail-britain]

I have been told that the trouble with Saturday night ones is more to do with engineering works than anything else.

The Carlisle stop: I'd probably use it if they dropped / collected a carriage there

I worked on the sleepers in the 1990s
The Saturday sleepers were already timed to take into account diversions, there was about 60 minutes of allowance for this
However quite often this was "abused" and would be lost between Preston and Rugby
Therefore being late just impacted the next diversion or blockade

Towards the end the time keeping was awful, and almost laughable
At the time this was impacting the newly introduced "Passengers Charter", and one solution there was to cease the service, getting rid of the problem
As before, quite often staff would be asked, "Whats the time keeping like on Saturday nights", with the response, "Not so much what time will it arrive, but will it be morning or afternoon"

The problem with the Carlisle sleeper was the erratic nature of demand
Quite often this single coach would be empty, and empty coaches don't make money
Furthermore you have the cost of supplying a further loco and crew to shunt this coach
It was quite similar with the Glasgow / Edinburgh - Plymouth sleeper, which was combined into a single sleeper

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I always thought that on a Saturday night, it's the only day when it's not a working day when you depart or arrive and there was simply no need for people to travel

 

[Greenback]

Saturday/Sunday are working days for a lot of people, including myself! Of course, demand is probably going to be lower on some routes where there is significant business travel, but for anyone who has to work on a Saturday before their holiday it would be a great way to save time!

 

[BRX]

Is there any case for reintroducing XC Sleepers, or creating Saturday night Sleepers?

I'd say that if we're going to create new sleeper services, then ideally we ought to be trying to find a way of running them through the channel tunnel.

Glasgow - Paris, Birmingham - Cologne, London - Bordeaux ... these would be the kind of overnight services it would be genuinely useful to have.

 

[37401]

I'd say that if we're going to create new sleeper services, then ideally we ought to be trying to find a way of running them through the channel tunnel.

Glasgow - Paris, Birmingham - Cologne, London - Bordeaux ... these would be the kind of overnight services it would be genuinely useful to have.

I must say that would be a good idea, but this sort of thing was tried before was it not? with 37/6s and 92s called "Nightstar" the plan was to run them overnight on the channel tunnel, I like your plan but the problem is the Glasgow start, that said if you started fairly early then you could get to Paris by 7-8 in the morning

 

[Greenback]

It was never actually tried, no trains ever ran.

I don;t think it would be possible for sleeper trains to run and make money at the present time unless they were a bit pick up from a number of stations serving large population areas between 2000 and 2300, and arriving at several large stations between 0730 and 1000.

As an example, Liverpool - Manchester - Birmingham direct to the Rhineland, or Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham to Geneva, Lucerne and Zurich. Even they may not be financially viable, but they would be the sort of journeys that would also allow further connections to be made at each end.

 

[spoony]

I wish they would do more sleepers in this country, but were a small island so relatively few routes need sleepers these days. I definitely would like to see a one from Newcastle to London calling at Sunderland, and other places along the east coast. I realise that normally this can be done in 3/4 hours during the day, but the ability to wake up in London ready for the day would appeal to me.

As for Carlisle, when we travelled from there we were the only passengers to board, this was on a Friday night ahead of a weekend away down London. Im certain if we hadnt booked on the train it would never have stopped at Carlisle, might even have gone the ECML route.

 

[A60K]

As for Carlisle, when we travelled from there we were the only passengers to board, this was on a Friday night ahead of a weekend away down London. Im certain if we hadnt booked on the train it would never have stopped at Carlisle, might even have gone the ECML route.

If a diversion via the ECML is planned then they'll do it. If not, they won't - it adds a lot more hassle than a straight run down the WCML. Whether you booked from Carlisle or not wouldn't have affected the running of the train in the slightest!

 

[oldrailman]

When I was in the RAF I used the overnights many times, sometimes going on leave from Scotland down to Lincolnshire. Not in a sleeper, but there was just something about travelling at night in a nice warm Mk1 compo, charging through the night behind a Deltic - magic! I also used Euston-Inverness sleepers (when the RAF was paying for my ticket!). Also once did the Padd-Penzance Night Riviera with a mate just for the trip. We must also remember that some years ago the West Country and Fort William sleepers were nearly scrubbed, but survived after campaigns to save them.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As for Carlisle, when we travelled from there we were the only passengers to board, this was on a Friday night ahead of a weekend away down London. Im certain if we hadnt booked on the train it would never have stopped at Carlisle, might even have gone the ECML route.

Of course it would still call, its a pathing stop, as well as being required for staff. And it would still run down the WCML for their stops at Crewe, Preston & Watford Jn

 

[Ibex]

As for Carlisle, when we travelled from there we were the only passengers to board, this was on a Friday night ahead of a weekend away down London. Im certain if we hadnt booked on the train it would never have stopped at Carlisle, might even have gone the ECML route.

We dispatch it from Watford with nobody getting on either of them about 3 nights out of 6. And same for going the other direction in the morning.

 

[badger1badger]

All

We would like to visit Brighton in the summer - then get a sleeper service up to the far north of Scotland

what options are available and what sort of cost would we be talking

Cheers

paul

 

[bse35]

What route does it take when its been diverted down the ECML?

 

[rail-britain]

We would like to visit Brighton in the summer - then get a sleeper service up to the far north of Scotland
what options are available and what sort of cost would we be talking

You can book the sleeper up to 12 weeks in advance
The cost will depend on how far in advance you can book, how many people are travelling, sharing / solo / First Class, which destination, and so on
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What route does it take when its been diverted down the ECML?

The same route as when it goes up the ECML
Edinburgh - Newcastle - Doncaster - North London - Wembley yard (sits there for about an hour southbound) - Euston

 

[Helvellyn]

Sleeper services are very expensive in a number of ways: The coaching stock is only used for one revenue earning trip per day; the low capacity of the vehicle (maximum of 24/26 if all berths are full); the higher staffing levels manning catering/pantry vehicles (and certainly a high staff to passenger ratio); additional crew costs when diversions take place.

FGW have shown that they can grow the Night Riveria by the fact that a couple of additional vehicles were refurbished to allow Summer services to be strengthened. But long term the big question will come when it's time to relace the existing Mark 3 vehicles, which will be in the nexy ten years. As transport is devolved to Scotland, the Scottish Executive might consider funding new vehicles. But these won't be cheap as they'll have to be a niche loco-hauled design to cover several vehicle types. If the funding (and political will) is there then I think we'll see a new build, but whether the will would be there to have an add-on build for the Night Riveria is another matter.


As to new services, I very much doubt we'll see anything. While a few enthusiasts on here say they'd use new services, how many other people would? So many people are price sensitive these days that a viable sleeper service (i.e. covers costs but that had cheap berths) would be difficult to provide. Just look at the airlines where extras are being stripped away on the legacy carriers to remain competitive with the no-frills carriers. British Airways sold off its loss making regional operations because it couldn't provide a full service operation at profit, despite many people I know claiming they'd use such an operation (yet never did).

 

[jon0844]

I am sure that a lot of people don't know about the service, and - for whatever reason - don't consider it when looking at options. If you went to a travel agent, would it be offered? Either for leisure travellers or business travellers, who will use a business travel agent.

To me, and I say this despite never using the service myself (but nor have I used any other form of transport to go these destinations), it seems a great way of travelling if you count the fact that it saves on a hotel stay. Sure, you might wish to travel earlier and avoid a hotel at all, but that means getting up at stupid o'clock, getting ready, then being knackered by the time you've arrived (I speak from experience of many very early flights to Europe).

If advertised well enough, and perhaps if you upgraded the trains to have Wi-Fi and other facilities on board, I think you could attract more custom. Seems the problem is the lack of room on the train though.

 

[rail-britain]

Sleeper services are very expensive in a number of ways: The coaching stock is only used for one revenue earning trip per day; the low capacity of the vehicle (maximum of 24/26 if all berths are full); the higher staffing levels manning catering/pantry vehicles (and certainly a high staff to passenger ratio); additional crew costs when diversions take place

Although the rolling stock for the service is only used six times per week, that cost is actually not as high as any other train
As you have identified the issue is the low number of passengers carried
You then have other "hidden" costs, but these are covered in the "sleeper supplement" such as the berth reset and retention tank reset

FGW have shown that they can grow the Night Riveria by the fact that a couple of additional vehicles were refurbished to allow Summer services to be strengthened

As far as I was aware all of their allocation of sleepers were now in use all year round?

long term the big question will come when it's time to relace the existing Mark 3 vehicles, which will be in the nexy ten years. As transport is devolved to Scotland, the Scottish Executive might consider funding new vehicles

Transport Scotland have already started looking into this
There have been several meetings which have included discussions on replacement rollng stock
All these meetings ended with effectively no decision
The main issue at the moment is that existing rolling stock will not meet RVAR requirements from 2020
A decision needs be made about 2016/2017 on an order
However, Transport Scotland have confirmed it will be a single order placed through DfT and this needs to be finalised by 2014/2015 (in effect the next government) so nothing is likely to happen at this stage